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Talk:Lord Voldemort - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Talk:Lord Voldemort

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Lord Voldemort article.
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Good article Lord Voldemort has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:
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  2. May 2006 – December 2006
  3. December 2006 – August 2007
  4. August 2007 - December 2007

Contents

[edit] What Has Gone Before

(What was archived)

[edit] Another possible name

I believe the German word for genocide is Vulkermord or something along those lines. Could this be an inspiration for the name Voldemort? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Illustrious One (talk • contribs) 15:59, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Sure, it could. But finding a citation that JKR chose Voldemort based on that would require some pretty solid citation. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 18:31, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, you may be right. Illustrious One
The word you are looking for is Völkermord - literally people/race murder. I'd be careful about putting it anywhere as a google search shows it to be associated with white supremacist groups, particularly their domain names. AulaTPN 15:08, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
If I'm not mistaken, the V in that word is pronounced like an f sound, and the tonic syllable is also very different from JKR's prefered pronounciation for the name. This is all wild speculation, and belongs in an HP chat room, not here. Magidin (talk) 18:19, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I couldn't agree with you more - I was simply pointing Illustrious One to the correct word. AulaTPN 08:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Voldemort was the wizard equivolent of a white supremacist. We don't know that he disliked black people but he was racist and seemed to dislike just about everyone. Also you may notice that none of the Death Eaters are black. On the contrary they are all very pale. JKR herself has described the Death Eaters as being like the Klu Klux Clan. The similarities between the Death Eaters and he Klu Klux Clan are particularly evident in the film adaptation of The Goblet of Fire in which they walk in ranks similar to the KKC and wear similar clothes. Illustrious One (Receive my Majesty) 17:18, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

First, it's Ku Klux Klan. Second, they are hardly the only ones who wear robes (so do free masons), or walk in ranks (marching bands, anyone?). Voldemort is the equivalent of any racial purity movement, of course. So what? Third, this is still all original research. Absent statements from Rowling, indicating that this is indeed part of the inspiration for the name, it does not belong on the page. I mean, should we add to the Potter page that "Potter" is almost identical to the yiddish word for "father", and that this may be related to the relationship between Harry and his father? Of course not. Magidin (talk) 18:04, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

There is no need to be quite so aggressive. I'll have you know that the Death Eaters robes and pointed hats were both very much reminiscent of the Klu Klux Klan or whatever. Why is everybody criticising my spelling? Probably just because they're jealous that I'm obviously more intelligent than them.

Yeah, I'm sure that's it. Magidin (talk) 18:38, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Hmm probably. Illustrious One (Receive my Majesty) 13:54, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Furthermore I was merely suggesting that the stuff about Voldemort's name bearing a similarity to the word Volkemord be put in the article along with the Death Eaters similarities to the KKK. The Voldemort/Volkermord thing is fair more notable than the Potter/Father connection. For one thing it actually has symbolism given the fact that Voldemort was in fact genocidal. Illustrious One (Receive my Majesty) 18:25 17th January 2007

If there is a verifiable quote from JKR establishing parallels between Death Eaters and the KKK specifically (as opposed to generically), then it belongs on the page on Death Eaters, not Voldemort. The similarity between "Voldemort" and "Völkermord" is hardly significant (more like "coincidental", especially given the very different pronounciations of the german word and the way JKR established Voldemort should be pronounced), so absent some indication that it played a role in the name, which again comes down to verifiable, reliable, citations, it is nothing but wild speculation, based on coincidence. I am sure we could find all sorts of correlations with other words if we search through the hundreds of languages and dialects that exist, with all kinds of characters in the series. It is not notable, and it is original research. Write a paper about it, get it published in a reputable literary analysis journal, get some discussion going among reputable researchers, and then you can source it and add it to the page. Until then, it belongs in a fan forum, not here. Magidin (talk) 18:38, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok. Just a suggestion. Illustrious One (Receive my Majesty) 19:08 17th January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] OCD?

I'm not sure if this has been raised before, and I figured I'd ask instead of just adding it. Does Tom (that's how I think of him) have a form of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder? He is a meticulous planner, sometimes to almost absurdly small details, and does get thoroughly obsessed with some things (Hogwarts, Harry, the Elder Wand, etc) quite easily. The_Night_Walker 16:12, 14 December 2007 (GMT +10)

I'm sure that's quite likely, but such an analysis would be considered original research here.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 05:25, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
It is thoroughly possible but many intelligent leaders obsess over little details. Napoleon, William the Conquerer, Julius Caesar. And besides, Voldemort seems to be a breeding ground for mental disorders, lol. Illustrious One

[edit] "Union"

In the portion of the article referring to Tom Riddle Sr.'s coerced relationship with Merope, the word "union" is linked to a disambiguation page... Which really contributes nothing. I'm pretty sure that Tom and Merope's union wasn't the European Union. What should we take this to refer to? Physical intimacy, marriage or pregnancy? --Dark Green (talk) 04:03, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, by the way, please leave a note on my talk page if you reply to this or fix the link, or something, so I know to check back as soon as possible. Thanks! --Dark Green (talk) 04:07, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to Faithless for fixing the link!

[edit] Biblical parallels

Does anyone besides me see similarities between Voldemort and the Antichrist from the Book of Revelations? Supposedly the Antichrist will like Voldemort be a charismatic individual with the ability to inspire many to follow him. His followers will bare the Mark of the Beast, similar to the Dark Mark born by the Death Eaters. Like Voldemort the Antichrist will seek to rule the world but will be defeated by the Messiah, namely Jesus. Harry is a sort of Messiah since he died and rose from the dead to defeat Voldemort. The Christian allegory is obvious there. JK Rowling is a very religious woman and there are various Biblical references in Harry Potter so I think Voldemort might have been meant to be an Antichrist character. Anyone else agree? Illustrious One (Receive my Majesty) 17:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

That is as may be; in my opinion, both the Bible and Rowling are just sampling from the same mythological wells. But in any case, this would be original research and opinion of editors, so it does not belong in the page. If you want to add something along these lines, you need to find a verifiable, reliable source that either quotes Rowling saying this explicitly, or find literary analyses that go into this, in which case they would belong in a separate section discussing literary analyses of the character and the works in general. If your intention was merely to chat about it or engage in a literary analysis discussion of the text, then please note that the talk pages are not for that; they are for discussions on improving the article. Magidin (talk) 20:40, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes I was thinking we could add a section on Biblical parallels in the article but upon reflection no we shouldn't as it's original research. Illustrious One (Receive my Majesty) 20:56, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

You should fix your sign template so that it includes the date (so the SineBot does not have to go around signing in after you); and to correct the misspelling while you are at it: unless writing recieve instead of receive was on purpose. Magidin (talk) 21:39, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea what you're talking about. Illustrious One (Receive my Majesty) 17:23, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Assuming you are not joking: You'll notice that your first and second comments in this section were followed up by the SineBot, adding the date and time (at least, until you fixed the second one); this because you were not including date and time in your signature (you do not seem to be using the automatic ~~~~). In addition, you are/were writing "Recieve my Majesty" (instead of the usual Talk), though you seem to have corrected the misspelling now (though not, as I write this, in the top comment of this section). That was all. Though I should probably have made the comment and this reply in your talk page... Magidin (talk) 18:19, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

No I didn't. Illustrious One (Receive my Majesty) 19:45, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Right... Magidin (talk) 20:30, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Bugger. Illustrious One (Receive my Majesty) 21:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Parallels with another famous villain?

Is there any evidence that Lord Voldemort's character development was influenced by Lord Sith Darth Vader in Star Wars? 66.234.220.195 (talk) 04:59, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

...I don't see it.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 05:19, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Nor do I. Voldemort was based on just about every power-mad tyrant in history or fiction, most notably Sauron but I don't see much of Darth Vader in there. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 17:06, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
A shame, coz I could really see the whole Elmer Fudd thing going on there... - Arcayne (cast a spell) 18:28, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Arcayne, you do make me chuckle.

Voldemort: Say your pwares Harry, it's Chosen One season. Harry: Dark Lord season. Voldemort: Chosen One season. Etc. Feel free to bask in my glow, who knows, you might get a tan! 19:17, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

See? Who says us Oxfordians cannot appreciate a good rabbit-hunting joke. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 09:32, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
LMFAO! Indeed. Feel free to bask in my glow, who knows, you might get a tan! 15:51, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Immortality category

There seems to be a bit of a controversy on whether Voldemort belongs in the Fictional Immortals category. Looking at the category itself, it is clear that being killed (or "killable") is not a bar to being listed in it: the category includes of course all of the Highlander immortals, as well as Tolkien's elves, in addition to the traditional immortal characters such as fictional deities. On the other hand, it is unclear to me if Voldemort really belongs in that same category: while he was able to prevent "passing beyond the veil" through the use of horcruxes when he was caused grievious, it is not at all clear that he would have been able to forestall death indefinitely (as Tolkien elves or Highlander immortals can); while powerful wizards within the Harry Potter world can clearly live very long lives, well beyond Muggle norms, they are nonetheless mortal. Also, his existence after the original attack on the Potters was more properly qualified as undeath, rather than immortality; this was said by the Centaurs in the Forbidden Forest. Zombies, ghouls, liches, etc are not "immortal" within the meaning of the category. My conclusion, based on all of this, is that Voldemort does not belong in the category. Magidin (talk) 18:09, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your civilised and understanding attitude, Magidin. My reason for installing Voldemort in the category was because as long as he has his horcruxes he is effectively immortal. That was the whole point of destroying them. The reason Voldemort was eventually vanquished was because Harry et al succeeded in eliminating said horcruxes, thereby rendering him mortal. The reason I mentioned The Mummy in one of my edit summaries was because Imhotep, the titular character of The Mummy was an immortal being who was made mortal by use of an ancient spell and killed at the climax of the film, similar to Voldemort. Would anyone else agree or disagree with the installation of said category? --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 19:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I would agree with installation as Voldemort certainly was able to prolong his life indefinately. Immortals includes people who need consumables to stay alive, like the Flamels. Monkey or Sun Wukong needed Peaches of Immortality or Pills of Longevity to stay alive. Voldy seems to be, if it can be said, 'very immortal' in that not only can he not die from age, he does not need to regularly tend to his immortallity crotch and cannot be killed without the removal of his horcruxes; also, unlike middle earth elves, he probably would not 'move on' if he lost the will to live through grief or otherwise.... Also, i think that he is clearly not, undead - firstly because he clearly never died and thus it is impossible for him to be undead, and second because he has a 'soul', as demonstrated in "King's Cross", which is not evident in many fictional or mythical undead.218.215.11.59 (talk) 09:25, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you 218. Very well said. May I have a second opinion? --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 17:29, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I still think that it is really weird to call "immortal" a character that died at the end of the series and that was not even born immortal. Horcruxes are more like bulletproof vests, once removed, the person is vulnerable to death. We can say that Voldemort with his Horcruxes might become "Eternal", but not fully "Immortal", because his body could be destroyed, and he could become "mortal" once again. Voldemort could have been considered immortal if, after the Elder Wand fired his own curse against him, he had managed to stay at least in that state he was the first time he tried to kill baby Harry. When Magidin said that Voldemort was undead, he was talking about that period in which his body was destroyed after attempting to murder baby Harry. The creature that was seen in King's Cross was Voldemort's soul indeed, and when Voldemort DIED, his soul was forced to stay in the form of that creatured forever. [1] --Lord Opeth (talk) 20:01, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
The immortals cat is not appropriate. As the prophecy about Potter was all that stood in the way of Riddle's immortality as Voldemort, he was never truly immortal. This is different from a Tolkien elf or Highlander immortal in that they are unaging past a certain point until something from the five Pain Groups renders them eternally sleepy. As it is, the cat prances perilously close to the edge of OR. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 20:44, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
My dear friends, are you bonkers? Being immortal does not by any make one indestructable. Just tell that to Jadis, Sauron, Morgoth, Saruman and Ayesha. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 21:02, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
To this point, only Sauron and Jadis are listed as Fictional immortals. By the way, Arcayne's point is a really strong argument. I suggest we remove the category until we achieve consensus on this topic. --Lord Opeth (talk) 01:20, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
And Sauron was not destroyed; he was diminished beyond all possible return. That said, Slughorn states that as long as one has a Horcrux, one "cannot die" [HBP Ch.23]. That much, at any rate, supports Jupiter's reading. Magidin (talk) 03:30, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Let us re-focus, ladies and gents - the article is not about fictional immortality. I think we've established that the cat isn't appropriate for the subject of this article. Voldie wasn't immortal. Powerful, yes. Immortal, JKR never denoted such, so he wasn't. Case and point, game, set and match. A little wiggle and a little jiggle. We are done here. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 04:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Arcayne sweetie, did you really think I would be defeated quite so easily. I believe that's called wishful thinking. As Magidin said, JKR establishes quite clearly that whilst one has a horcrux they "cannot die." Voldemort had seven horcruxes, ergo he was immortal. He might have been rendered mortal and therefore destructable once Harry had eliminated his horcruxes but he was for a sufficient amount of time, quite immortal. Now I believe we're done. Unless anyone else has anything to add. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 11:44, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Jupiter, this is neither a battle nor a duel. No one here is trying to "defeat you". Let's do not forget that Voldemort was seeking for immortality, but never achieved it. Rowling stated that if Voldemort had taken a look at the Erised mirror, he would have seen "Himself, all-powerful and eternal. That's what he wants."[2] However, he never achieved that status because he was not immortal, and not even all-powerful. --Lord Opeth (talk) 20:10, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I certainly see where proponents of adding the cat are coming from, however, I must disagree. We're talking about a guy who died at about age seventy - it seems that the only argument in favor is, "well, he was immortal until he died." I think we can all agree that that is a nonsense argument. Immortal means you never die - Voldemort dies. Hence, Voldemort is not immortal, QED. faithless (speak) 20:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Forgive me if I sounded threatening Opeth, my comment was intended humorously. Might I point out that for a time Voldemort was "allpowerful and eternal." He was arguably the most powerful wizard on Earth and as I have stated whilst in possession of his horcruxes he was very much immortal. With regards to Faithless's argument, we are not saying "He was immortal until he died", we are saying that he was immortal until his horcruxes were destroyed and at that point he became mortal once again and therefore was destroyed. Furthermore being immortal as I have said does not necessarily make one indestructable. And for a while Voldemort was indestructable. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 20:55, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry about me being threatened, Jupe; I didn't feel such. This isn't a battle, as Opeth said. Let's try this another way. Please cite where in the books that JKR described Riddle as immortal (and let's not quote his fictional followers). Without citations, this convo is forum play, and - if I recall correctly - Wikipedia isn't a forum. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 00:22, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Good, good. Yes you're quite right, Wikipedia is not a forum. I'll have a look through the books tomorrow if I can make the time what with the social life and all that. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 00:35, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh just put it in anyway. He's so immortal, immortal people would beat him with sticks out of pure unbridled jealousy. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 20:13, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

They might, but he might like that. ;)
I oppose the inclusion of the cat. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 03:12, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Hmm. He strikes me as more of a sadist than a masochist to tell you the truth Arcayne. Bellatrix seems like both. Good lord what must the two of them get up to? Anyway I'm going off topic. Like I say, I'll have a look through the book. I'll go and get it off the shelf after I've had a mocha. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 11:40, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm not so shure he's an immortal in the sense the category means, like Zeus or an angel or something. He's just a guy who destroyed his soul and cannot die, that seems pretty different. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 16:18, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Well if he cannot die then he is effectively immortal until such a time as the horcruxes are destroyed. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 00:03, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, without a citation speaking precisely to his immortality, any such classification is supposition - based on good reasoning, but reasoning it is. Let's can the chatter and find some citations. They speak far more decisively than us. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 00:27, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
As eloquent as we are. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 12:32, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Speak for yourself. I am an unprincipled lout, for the most part. (grn) - Arcayne (cast a spell) 12:37, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Maybe so. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 13:36, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Serves me right for expecting you to play the straight man there. Grr. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 20:44, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I thought I played the part quite beautifully if I do say so myself.

[edit] Voldemort's attempt to kill Harry in the forest

Would you also say that not only due to Voldemort having Harry's blood but also that Voldemort was using the Elder Wand was a reason why Harry didn't die? After all, we find that the Cruciatus Curse cannot be used against the 'dead' Harry, due to the Elder Wand truly being Harry's. Maybe that should be added in the section of the final book? OUChevelleSS (talk) 19:48, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

By all accounts the curse from the Elder Wand shouldn't have even touched Harry let alone nearly killed him as it did. But then The Deathly Hallows was riddled with all sorts of plot-holes and continuity errors so I think we should just let that one pass and take things with a pinch of salt. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 20:13, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Let's not attempt to make a silk purse from a sow's ear here. JKR an write an entertaining story, but she isn't Steinbeck or Cherryh or even Dr. Seuss. Trying to derive hefty meaning from her work is like trying to anticipate poker tells from parameciums. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 20:54, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not even going to bother trying to derive an atom of sense from the above comment. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 12:38, 2 April 2008 (UTC) J.K. Rowling keeps saying that since Harry's the true master of the Elder Wand it can't touch him. I think you guys have a point! The Cruciatus Curse shouldn't have worked against him. I never actually noticed that before. Goku's Rival (talk) 16:39, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This is catergorized as a "fictional character with a mental illness"

Surely not? JK has never said he has one, the books don't say he has one, only a spiritual illness, so this is OR? I notice there is debate on this page about OCD: again, this is OR. I think it should be removed, what about you?86.135.209.39 (talk) 18:54, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree.--CyberGhostface (talk) 20:04, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Read the third paragraph in the "character development" section - JKR has described Voldemort as a 'psychopath' - psychopathy is a mental illness, thus the category is warranted. faithless (speak) 02:14, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Inappropriate cats

I have removed several inappropriate cats, with the following reasoning: 1) Fictional cult leaders - This one is obvious, I think. I don't remember the Death Eaters ever being referred to as a cult. Are they? Perhaps, but it would be OR to say so without a proper source. 2) Fictional dictators - Lamentably, we know very little about the politics and government of the wizarding world. One thing that we do know is that Voldemort never held any official position of power in the series. Pius Thicknesse was the Minister for Magic in Deathly Hollows; was Voldemort really pulling the strings behind the scenes? Possibly, maybe even probably, but in what way, and to what extent? We just don't know. Again, OR. 3) Fictional terrorists - Not to sound like a broken record, but who says? The definition of what a terrorist is is very fluid and often-changing. When has anyone call Voldemort a terrorist? 4) Fictional warlords - Again, not saying he isn't, but he is never described as such. Incidentally, I've left the 'mass murderers' cat - this has been discussed before. While I feel the category should be included, I have not and will not add it, though I don't believe it should be removed either. With some cats (for instance, fictional terrorists), it needs to be specifically stated that he was a terrorist, as the word means different things to different people, and in different contexts. There is no one accepted definition of what a terrorist is. On the other hand, there is no debate (that I'm aware of) of what constitutes a mass murderer - someone who kills about ten people (that we know of, no doubt the actual total is higher) is a mass murderer. There really is no room for discussion. Just my opinion. Cheers, faithless (speak) 02:29, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Dictator is definitely not appropriate: dictators assume autocratic power themselves, and do not operate "behind the scenes"; we certainly know that Voldemort did not assume autocratic power in his own person. It is as inappropriate to refer to Voldemort as 'dictator' as it is to refer to him as a 'despotic monarch' even if he held equivalent power in practice. The term simply does not apply. Your arguments, on the other hand, would apply to, say, "tyrant". I will point out that as far as "Fictional Tyrant", my feelings are the mirror image of those you have for "mass murderer": I do not think it should be included, but I do not have the will to remove it if someone puts it on. I agree on the others. Magidin (talk) 03:55, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
1) Fictional cult leaders: should remain. The DE are a cult. One of the definitions of a cult, according to Wiki, is "A system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator" and "Great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book)". The word idea is referenced several times within that article. We can just take as examples Regulus' devotion to Voldemort prior to betraying him: Hermione pointed out in DH that Regulus' bedroom was full of Voldemort's newspaper articles. Another example can be the extreme fanatic devotion of Bellatrix and Crouch Jr. All of them believed in an idea of supremacy of pure-bloods over other members of the wizarding world.
2) Fictional dictators: agree with removal. Voldemort never held a position of power. In the last chapter (Flaw in the plan) he said he would build a "new world", but he did not manage to do it. He never was Minister for Magic, and not even Thicknesse could have been considered as dictator. I also disagree with Fictional tyrants, monarchs or whatever.
3) Fictional terrorists: should remain. There's an interview in which Rowling says that what Voldemort does is terrorism. [3] JKR said that "But what Voldemort does, in many senses, is terrorism, and that was quite clear in my mind before 9/11 happened."
4) Fictional warlords: agree with removal. In the end, Voldemort did not think that war was necessary, and never had "military control over a subnational area due to armed forces loyal to the warlord and not to a central authority". However, he is a "person exercises far more power than his official title or rank (if any) legitimately permits him or her" but neither the series nor Rowling has said he is a warlord.--Lord Opeth (talk) 03:06, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Regarding fictional terrorists, yes, I forgot about that interview, the cat is appropriate. I still very strongly disagree with fictional cult leaders, however. I hear what you're saying, Opeth, and I'm not saying that the Death Eaters aren't a cult, per se. But if they are a cult, they are a cult in the way described in this article, whereas, in my humble opinion, the category in question is really meant for the leaders of this type of cult; that is, I think the spirit of the cat is that it is meant for leaders of religious cults, which the Death Eaters don't seem to be. faithless (speak) 06:27, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
If you want my opinion, Fictional cult leaders should remain. It could be described as a religious cult as the Death Eaters seemed to practically worship Voldemort as a god, much the way the Nazis did Hitler. Fictional dictators should definitely remain. Whether or not we know anything about the inner workings of the Ministry, Voldemort assumed sole autocratic power over it, thereby making him a dictator. The fact that he controlled it from behind the scenes is a mere technicality. Also a dictator is not necessarily a despotic "monarch." Would you describe Stalin as a monarch? Fictional terrorists should also stay as Voldemort is someone with a political agenda who causes death and destruction to force people round to his way of thinking which is pretty much the definition of a terrorist. I'm not particularly concerned about Fictional warlords, it depends on the definition which (despite my brilliance) I'm not entirely sure of. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 23:46, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Hitler was in no way worshiped by Nazis, nor is Voldemort (so far as we know) worshiped by the Death Eaters. Like I said, the argument could be made that the DE are a cult by the definition of a group working towards a common goal while simultaneously going against societal norms; however, I argue that the category is not meant for such cults, but rather for religious cults. There is absolutely nothing in the series to suggest that the DE have any religious devotion to Voldemort, and there's certainly nothing to suggest that they worship him. As for the dictator cat, who says that Voldemort "assumed sole autocratic power?" And yes, we all agree that fictional terrorists fits, and I personally have restored it. faithless (speak) 00:45, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Voldemort did not assume autocratic power in his own person over the ministry; he pulled the strings, yes, might even say "took control over", but he did not assume autocratic power in his own person: he installed a puppet. As such, he was not in fact a dictator. Magidin (talk) 01:31, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Maybe not, I meant the devotion the Death Eaters showed toward Voldemort was similar to a religious fanatacism as was that shown to Hitler by the Nazis. Furthermore whilst Voldemort may indeed have assumed power over the Ministry from behind the scenes, he was still very much a dictator as he was the one with all the power. His puppet Minister was exactly that, a puppet. He also played the role of a dictator figure to the Death Eaters and his other minions, giants, dementors, "dark creatures" and so forth. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 10:57, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
"Dictator" requires a direct assumption of autocratic power not derived from an hereditary position: that is what the term means. Being the Grey Eminence does not qualify as being a dictator; pulling the strings does not qualify as being a dictator; having effective control over does not qualify as being a dictator; being the Real Power Behind the Throne does not qualify as being a dictator. Stalin did not become dictator over the Soviet Union until he actually assigned the functions of power to the Party's Secretary General position. Voldemort did not become a "despotic monarch" just by effectively wielding the same control and power as a despotic monarch would, and did not become a "dictator" by installing a puppet in a position of power. Even if the position of Minister for Magic endowed its occupant with all that power, still Voldemort would not have been a dictator simply by reason of him not assuming the position in his own person; just like you don't become a king until you are actually crowned, you are not a dictator unless you assume autocratic power in your own person. Otherwise, you are just the power behind the throne, the Grey Eminence, the Real Power, etc., not a dictator. Magidin (talk) 15:48, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Sheath that verbal sword of yours Magidin because mine can be so much sharper. Besides, I'm not attacking you, I'm merely giving my opinion. I mentioned Stalin because he was a dictator but not a monarch. You however seem to think that the term dictator connotates a monarch when in fact it describes a despotic ruler of any sort. Nevertheless you may be right regarding Voldemort's control over the Ministry however might I point out that he was still a dictator to the Death Eaters, the Giants and the Dementors. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 16:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

De indenting for readability. "Verbal sword"? This is the 21st century, man. I use a laser sighted under-and-over twin barrelled verbal wit, with a 7.62 mm floating breech pulse rifle firing caseless one-liners on top, and a 40mm explosive gag launcher underneath. I have a verbal flechette rounds with barbed comments for backup, and a flamethrower if needed in the back (with apologies to Niall McAuley). I'm also stating my understanding of the term. Do kindly read what I wrote a bit more carefully: I do not think the term dictator connotates a monarch. I am bringing up "monarch" to point out that effectively wielding the same kind of power does not automatically grant the title as an appropriate description: even if in practice you were to hold the exact same power and position as a monarch does, that in and of itself does not warrant the use of the term "monarch" as a description. Thus, Cromwell was not a monarch over the Commonwealth, even though he held the same kind of power and even made the position of Lord Protector hereditary. Likewise, even if (a big if) Voldemort held the same kind of power over the English wizarding world as a dictator would through his control of a puppet Minister, that in and of itself would not warrant calling him a "dictator", and that latter is your argument (that because he effectively held the power of a dictator he was a dictator). "Dictator" is a term of art, and we aren't through the looking glass where words mean what we want them to mean and nothing more. Voldemort was also not properly a "dictator" to the Death Eaters; 'dictator' is specific to governmental or quasi-governmental entities, not to political parties, gang, cults, religious group, or what have you. He was the leader of the Death Eaters, maybe even stronger terms, but "dictator" is just not appropriate, just as it is not appropriate to his standing among Giants or Dementors. The word has a meaning, and it is not "able to order around" or even "his wish is their command". Magidin (talk) 16:39, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

To interject as this article is randomly on my watchlist: whether you think the Death Eaters are a cult is immaterial. Unless you have a reliable source or Rowling herself that says "the DE are a cult", putting the category is original research no matter how you cut it, and thus verboten. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 17:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Magidin, I'd like to see your 7.62 mm floating breech pulse rifle or whatever last a minute against my verbal Walther PPK. I'd wipe the floor with you before you even time to reload. But we're not here to discuss the calibre (or lack thereof) of your wit, we're here to debate over categories which is somewhat less amusing but more professional. To David Fuchs, the Death Eaters, regardless of whether Rowling says so or not, fit the definition of a cult and since Voldemort is their leader, he belongs in the cat. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 18:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I see your superiority complex and raise you a Ph.D. in Maths; I don't need to reload, I hit what I aim at on first shot, and have no compuction in shooting while your head is turned (-:. Anyway, yes. My point has simply been that Voldemort's position as the Grey Eminence or the Power Behind the Throne disqualifies him as a dictator. Dictatorship requires personal assumption of autocratic power, not simply the wielding of equivalent power. Controlling a puppet government does not a dictator make. All mentions I made of monarchy were meant to be analogies and parallels, not the bringing up of prerequisites: that it is not merely the wielding of power, but the actual governmental structure and position within it that are relevant for the title to fit. "Dictator" does not mean "able to dictate". (Remember that "dictator" was actually a specific post in the Roman Senate, which is where the term comes from). The category of dictators is not appropriate for Voldemort, because it does not refer simply to the ability to order around; it requires a personal assumption of power within a governmental or quasi-governmental power structure (among other requirements). Magidin (talk) 19:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Please read WP:NOR. Frankly, it doesn't matter one infinitesimal bit that they fit the definition of a cult. Without a reliable source, you cannot put it in the article. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 19:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Very well David Fuchs, I stand down. To Magidin, I shall not engage in a duel of wits with an unarmed man. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 19:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

One last comment on the dictator cat: first, Yaxley is the one who puts Thicknesse under the Imperius Curse, not Voldemort. And for all we know, he didn't make Thicknesse do anything that he wasn't going to do before being cursed. So there's nothing to prove that the DE were even controlling the Minister. Second, the Minister for Magic is not a dictator, so even if Thicknesse was doing Yaxley's bidding, he didn't have the authoritarian power of a dictator. faithless (speak) 22:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Video game boss cat

I add this sub-section to the Inappropriate cats section to ask you if you consider the videogame bosses category appropiate or inappropiate for Voldemort's article. In the end, in games 4 and 5 he appeared as the main boss. However, I am not completely sure about this, as the article is primarily for the book character. On the other hand, the "Harry Potter characters" cat is listed under "fantasy film characters" cat, so if the HP characters are categorized in other media apart from literature, then we can consider Voldemort also as a videogame boss. Thoughts? --Lord Opeth (talk) 19:29, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with it's inclusion per what you just said. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 19:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Video game boss cat seems appropriate, though I don't feel strongly one way or the other, to be honest. faithless (speak) 22:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Seems like video game boss would make sense if we had a mention that Voldemort appears in the videogames as the final boss (also in Game 1, by the by); this ought to be in a "Other Media" subsection within the Appearances section, no? Magidin (talk) 02:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 08:35, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Sense of humor

Its said here that "he can laugh at himself". I never recall that happening. Ever!58.65.163.248 (talk) 18:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

In Goblet of Fire he does a big dramatic speech about how useless his father was and how he was more use to him in death than he was in life then says "But listen to me, I am growing quite sentimental." I think that counts as laughing at himself. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 19:48, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
seems to be more like sarcasm than laughing at oneself. Self deprecating humor it is not.

58.65.163.248 (talk) 09:35, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Well he was still mocking himself a bit. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 01:10, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Psychopathy and sociopathy

The personality section (an excellant section nevertheless) states that Rowling has both referred to Voldemort as a "raging psychopath" and a "complete sociopath." But you can't be both. Psychopathy is a neurobiological disorder whereas sociopathy (or Antisocial Personality Disorder as it's also known) is an enviromentally acquired disorder. Personally I think Voldemort's more of a psychopath than a sociopath although he exhibits behaviour consistent with both (sadism toward animals as a child, etc). --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 10:50, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean, "you can't be both"? The two are not equivalent, certainly, but why is it impossible to be suffering from both conditions? I'm curious... Magidin (talk) 16:05, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Well there are similarities. Both psychopaths and sociopaths are innately sadistic, manipulative and remorseless but whereas psychopathy is characterised by a callous lack of emotions and a sense of superiority, sociopathy is more characterised by lack of control over ones emotions. Sociopaths are constantly tormented by a feeling of dysphoria and vent their frustrations with the world by deliberately hurting people. Psychopaths have very shallow emotions and just don't care if they hurt people in pursuing what they want although they do enjoy others misfortune. For example, a sociopath would deliberately run someone over, a psychopath would run someone over and then just think "Serve the idiot right for getting in my way." Their mind sets are too different to occupy the same mind. Psychopaths are generally calmer although they are prone to mood swings and Narcissistic rages. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 17:50, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I see... Okay, I just checked the interview, and it seems that Rowling only stated the "psycopath" description: "a raging psychopath, devoid of the normal human responses to other people's suffering;" the page does not attribute the "sociopath" comment to Rowling, so perhaps a bit of rewriting is in order and dropping that particular arm-chair diagnosis. Magidin (talk) 18:20, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I quite agree. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 19:39, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


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