Talk:List of official languages
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[edit] French in 6 continents
For Portuguese you consider East Timor as in Ocenia (while it is more commonly attributed to Asia, for example by UN) and Macau separately. If you consider Macau (part of China now) for Portuguese you should consider Pondichéry (part of India) for French: so French is present officially in all 6 continents.
Pondichery and Macau are not countries. So, it is better not considered them. Jj.
Does anyone know where to get info on the official language(s) of Ghana? The CIA world fact book says:
English (official), African languages (including Akan, Moshi-Dagomba, Ewe, and Ga)
But I was pretty sure that some of those african languages were official (besides just English). It would also be useful to have a complete list of the recognized african languages (I believe there are at least 15 recognized languages, and another 60 or so unrecognized languages).
About the inclusion of Hong Kong and Macau in the PRC (an obvious fact for me)User:Efghij: If you keep specifying Hong Kong and Macau, please specify Açores and Madeira (Portugal) and ALL Spanish regions, among other self-governing parts of many countries. Why is this case special?Marco NevesMarco Neves
Louisiana has no official language
?which is why I took the liberty to delete the state of Louisiana from the list. Louisiana?s current constitution (1974) says that the "right of the people to preserve, foster, and promote their respective historic linguistic and cultural origins is recognized" (see Article XII, Section 4 at http://senate.legis.state.la.us/Documents/Constitution/). Furthermore, all contracts and other documents written in French are recognized as legally binding. See also for more information James Crawford?s page on Louisiana: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/JWCRAWFORD/can-la.htm
According to the New Mexico wikipedia page, it also does not have an official language.
"New Mexico is commonly thought to have Spanish as an official language alongside English, due to the widespread usage of Spanish in the state. Although the original state constitution of 1912 provided for a temporarily bilingual government, New Mexico has no official language."
Please stop edit-warring. If you've got a source that says Ireland has two official languages, with Irish as "the" official language, give me a link. -- ヤギ
- I'm Portuguese and not particularly interested in the linguistic situation in Ireland, but I've learnt and repetedly see printed in many books and sources that:
- Ireland is a mostly English-speaking country;
- Ireland has two official languages: Irish Gaelic and English;
- Irish Gaelic (or Irish) is considered the first official language, having superior legal value than English, which is one of the few (if not the only) cases in which an official language has a superior value to that of another (even in Spain, regional languages have exactly the same official value as Spanish in their own regions). Marco NevesMarco Neves
--- Kurdish is an official language in Iraq!!!
- Yes (according to demographics of Iraq), and thanks for your excitement!!! Tuf-Kat
The 1937 Irish constitution Art.8.1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
Art.8.2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.
(emphasis yours -- ヤギ )
All legislation, etc in the Irish language is treated as superior to anything in the Englsh language. etc etc etc. JtdIrL 06:32 Mar 7, 2003 (UTC)
- The constitution of Ireland states that Irish will be the first official language and the next section states English is their second official language. This does not mean Irish (or Gaelic) is THE official language, but it was obviously the first established and I am not arguing on that point.
- The fact is, any country with more than one official language would say "this is our first official language, this is our second official language, this is our tenth official language". There is no reason to make a special case for Ireland, they simply have two official languages like many countries. Article reverted. -- ヤギ
- [just a remark: countries with more than one official language usually don't establish an order for those languages; Ireland, actually, is one of the few which does that.]Marco NevesMarco Neves
Cant you read english? Irish is THE OFFICIAL LANGUAGE. Number 1. The first. English is A second. Number two. Inferior in law. Takes second place in law. In the case of a clash, the Irish language version comes out tops.
One is THE language, one is rated as a second, to which if Ireland wanted to, Outer Mongolian could be added as an equal language to english. It is not an equality. One is THE language. One is a secondary language. JtdIrL 06:40 Mar 7, 2003 (UTC) Cant you read english? Irish is THE OFFICIAL LANGUAGE. Number 1. The first. English is A second. Number two. Inferior in law. Takes second place in law. In the case of a clash, the Irish language version comes out tops.
One is THE language, one is rated as a second, to which if Ireland wanted to, Outer Mongolian could be added as an equal language to english. It is not an equality. One is THE language. One is a secondary language. JtdIrL 06:40 Mar 7, 2003 (UTC)
- I am perfectly capable of understanding English. Ireland has two official languages. It is not rocket science. -- ヤギ
- Please leave the entries on Ireland uniform to the other entries until a consensus has been reached. -- ヤギ
You want me to leave the entries to Ireland incorrect? Are you joking? There is no question of leaving entries about something as fundamental, as basic and as easy to understand as what the Irish constitution says about relative status of two languages incorrect. I wouldn't leave a page that said Rome was the capital of France untouched. Or that England is a republic. There is no question of letting a page that contain a fundamental mistake about Ireland sit with that error. As you still don't seem capable of grasping the facts, let me spell them out one more time.
Irish = ' The NATIONAL LANGUAGE' 'THE first official language.' Art.8.1. English = merely 'recognised' as A second official language, not ;THE national language, not 'A' national language, not even another first official language'. Instead it is demoted to A SECOND official language. In any quiz, if someone is asked - What is the national language of Ireland?, if they answer english they are told wrong answer. The national language is Irish. English is a secondly, inferior, grade II language.
Personally I don't agree with the way the constitution treats english, and would love to change it. But my personal feelings are irrelevant, the Official language of Ireland is Irish. English is a secondary language, not the official one. JtdIrL 07:20 Mar 7, 2003 (UTC)
From Iraq's constitution:
Article 7 [Languages]
(a) Arabic is the official language.
(b) The Kurdish language is official, besides Arabic, in the Kurdish Region.
I should have read before editing that, my mistake. -- ヤギ
"in the Republic of Ireland what is the state's official national language is actually spoken by only a small proportion of people"
Isn't the "national language" of a country the language most of the population speaks? From what I have read the terms "national language" and "official language" are seperate and should not be used interchangably. -- ヤギ
And Puerto Rico? In the list of states?
this is not NPOV and misleading. Puerto Rico is not a state, (not an incorporated territory like Guam and American Samoa or the english speaking territory of Virgin Islands). It is a self governing commonwealth associated with US since 1952. Spanish is and has been the first language (mother tongue)of Puerto Rico , English is a symbolic second language due to Puerto Rico's political association with US (English is taught in schools as a foreign language and not as a common, majority or national language). Puerto Rico has its own National Academy of Spanish Language (http://www.acaple.org) separate from the the USA National Academy of Spanish Language as well. Puerto Rico should be listed under state or province (since it is not fully sovereign) but separate from US (since it a self governing commonwealth in political association with US).
Swedish is an official language of Finland, but not of Sweden. There is a current Government Bill that has been put to Parliament, which is proposing to make Swedish the official language, but it has run into heavy critisism and it seems unlikely that it will pass. Just two years ago the Swedish Parliament passed an act recognizing several minority lanugages, and these are the only languages that have any kind of official recognition in Sweden. Swedish is so far merely the de facto standard language of Sweden, and it does not have an official status. /Mic
Just out of interest, I notice that English isn't listed as an official language of Great Britain. As far as I know it should be (certainly Welsh has official status in Wales, and I'm sure English does too, so I'd be surprised if it's not official in the rest of Britain). Also, should it be the whole United Kingdom or just Great Britain (or even the individual countries)? Magnus 17:28 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)
According to a 1995 Parliamentary answer, there is "no concept of an official language enshrined in English or Scottish law". The Welsh Language Act enshrines the principle that "in the conduct of public business and the administration of justice in Wales, the English and Welsh languages should be treated on a basis of equality", but does not quite make it an "official language". See this PDF for an argument that Welsh should be made an official language. Furthermore, under the definition offered at official language, neither the UK nor Wales can have an "official language" as there is no written constitution. As with so many things in the UK, English is our "official language" only by longstanding convention. --rbrwr
Anyone know what Inuvialuktun, an official language of the Northwest Territories of Canada, is? It is not listed in Inuit, Inuktitut, or Eskimo-Aleut. Rmhermen 23:53, Aug 8, 2003 (UTC)
[edit] Dutch/Flemish
Look, I know the Dutch say "there's no such place as Belgium", but nevertheless Flemish is a distinct language with a distinct (and longer) cultural tradition, and the fact that Flemings and Dutchmen can make themselves mutually understood far more easily than (say) Danes and Swedes or Serbs and Croats does not make Dutch into one of the languages of Belgium. I suggest that we allow the fact of a distinct literary tradition to come through, or we lose touch with such things as Til Eulenspiel. PML.
- I am from the Dutch Wikipedia, I am from Belgium, I speak Dutch (not flemish). Dutch is one of the 3 offical languages of Belgium and the main language of about 60% of the population. Flemish is not a offical language of Belgium. Giskart 09:54 Mar 13, 2003 (UTC)
- Zelfs als Vlaams echt een andere taal zou zijn, wat het niet is, dan is het nog niet een officiële taal van een land. Dan kun je evengoed gaan zeggen dat ze in België "Limburgs, Antwerps, Gents, Brussels, en West-Vlaams spreken (al geef ik wel toe dat West-Vlaams soms wel als een andere taal klinkt) Giskart 09:54 Mar 13, 2003 (UTC)
Vandalism alert. Dutch supremacists appear to be denying the existence of Flemish, and making out that Belgium has Dutch as an official language. PML.
-
- A remark: I've learned that Flemish and Dutch were united and are today two "dialects" of the same language - neerlandese. This is, I've heard the official situation, similar to that of Catalan: Catalan is called Valencian in Valencian Community but is, nevertheless, Catalan. Dutch and Flemish are two different names for the same language and, at the same time, two dialects of that language. Marco NevesMarco Neves
Flanders, the Netherlands and Suriname have a treaty called Nederlandse Taalunie (Dutch Language Union). This treaty fixes the spelling used in education and by the government. Some other languages (Portuguese) also have such a treaty. --Otto ter Haar 09:58, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Moldovan language
Dear Sir, The Moldovan (Moldavian) language don't exist ! This "language" is only an invention of the Russian invaders. The language of the people in the so-called Moldova is the Romanian language. Best regards, Sorin Demetrescu 17.09.2003
- No, of course it doesn't exist, it is just the official name of the Romanian language in Moldova. :)
- See Moldovan language about this. Bogdan 12:10, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)
[edit] Irish/English "secondary"
Under the Irish constitution, Article 8 1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.
3. Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof. garryq 13:32, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
The OFFICIAL LANGUAGES ACT 2003 ( http://www.acts.ie/en.act.2003.0032.4.html#partiii-sec11 ) does enable the use of Irish only in stationery and public announcements. Nevertheless, it confirms that both languages are official and that any person may use either language in contacting the government and expect a reply in that language I am sure the State will now use Irish much more in the Gaeltacht, but English has not been downgraded or replaced. The Constitution and practicalities ensure that. The situation is not analogous to Qu&eacur;bec where the promotion of French has been by a near-criminalising of non-Francophone and by suspending the Constitution (via the notwithstanding clause) garryq 14:18, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Languages missing from list
Some languages are not given entries even though they are mentioned as co-official languages under other entries. Bislama is one of these. Also, Bulgarian appears out of alphabetical sequence.
[edit] Portuguese in Galicia
The Portuguese language is not official in Galicia, texts in Portuguese don't have legal value.--Rocastelo 18:11, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC) n
[edit] Iceland
Why doesn't Iceland have a place their? The ancient Icelandic should definetely be there with the others, as its a very interesting language and obviously the official language of the country, as anyone who has been there knows (but you don't have to go there to know that).
[edit] Korean in South Korea
I am more and more unsure about the legal status of Korean in South Korea. As far as I can determine, it has no explicit status in written law. However, during the recent controversy surrounding President Roh Moo-hyun's proposed special law to move the capital, the argument that the prominent national symbols—Seoul being the capital, the national anthem, Korean as the "official" language—are included in the unwritten "Customary Constitution" (관습헌법) was used by the Constitutional Court of South Korea to overrule the proposed special law as being unconstitutional. Naturally, this raised a whole political debate about the validity of the "Customary Constitution" argument, and if we merely follow the Court's decision and say that Korean is the official language of South Korea, we may risk choosing a side in an ugly battle. How should we deal with this situation? Please direct your comments to Talk:South Korea. Thanks. --Iceager 01:02, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
- Well, I have been reminded that earlier this year (2005) the "Basic Law on national language" (국어기본법) was passed, and although I haven't been able to find its content anywhere, according to the press reports at the time it specified Korean as the official language and Hangul as the official script. I completely forgot about this. Never mind then... --Iceager 01:16, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Vatican City
I think if there is no law in a country that says the equivalent of "X is the/a official language" or something very similar, then the country doesn't belong in this list. Countries where languages are merely de facto or traditionally official don't belong here. (Thus the U.S. isn't shown under English, Sweden is not listed under Swedish etc.)
By this measure I am having doubts that Latin is an official language of the State of the Vatican City. So far I haven't been able to uncover mention of a law that says Latin is official there. Does any one know one way or the other? I have also raised this question in Talk:Latin and Talk:Vatican City. -- Cam 06:59, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Australia
It appears that English is not de jure official in Australia. See recent discussion in Talk:Australia. When their article gets edited I will change it here. --Cam 17:10, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] De facto versus de jure
I suggest that we follow the Britannica practice of recognizing "de facto" and well as "de jure" official languages. For example, English is not the official language de jure of the United States. But Britannica apparently recosgnizes "official" any language in which the government of a country conducts most of its business. I propose a similar policy, with de facto and de jure clearly labelled as such. David Cannon 22:39, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
- Sounds reasonable, but by "official language" I think one means "official by law". And so any situation in which it is implicitly understood that a specific language is to be used for all formal purposes (for practical rather than symbolic reasons), should be denoted in the list as de facto official, as opposed to legally sanctioned. "De jure official" is an unnecessary pleonasm, while "de facto official" is an apt description of an actual situation. Note also that certain extinct languages are official solely as a symbolic gesture (such as Sanskrit, Latin or Manx), but we don't describe these as "de facto unofficial". //Big Adamsky 22:47, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
- This definition is kind of a big deal, since it involves every country and state table. Could some kind of formal vote be taken about what our policy should be? --Cam 00:11, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Malaysian official language
There's only one official language and that's Malay. I've removed Malaysia from Chinese, English and Tamil list. See Article 152 of the Malaysian Constitution. __earth 02:16, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Kosovo
Kosovo is not (as yet) a sovereign state. I believe it therefore does not belong to this list. Should it remain here, as far as I know from a few months I spent there dealing with local legal matters, all current legislation is issued in albanian, serbian and english. Therefore, Kosovo should be added under the serbian, and probably the english entry. --81.57.232.80 03:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Russian language in Ukraine
Russian is not an official language of Ukraine. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 152.66.237.197 (talk) 19:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC).
[edit] Mandarin
Can anyone tell me about countries which have Mandarin as the official language? Wikipedia doesn't say the third. It just says China and Taiwan.
210.49.166.193 06:03, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
- Singapore (along with Malay, Tamil and English).--Fitzwilliam 07:54, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Zimbabwe
Ndebele is also an official language of zimbabwe The third official language is Shona
Just a bit more info
[edit] Mexico
This article states that Mexico's official language is Spanish. The Wikipedia article for Mexico states that Mexico does not have an official language. Which is correct? --JoeIcarus 18:51, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Spanish in Europe and Africa
Why is it said in the ranking that Spanish is official in two European and two Asian countries? As far as I know, Spanish is official in one European country (Spain) and one African country (Equatorial Guinea). So which are the second ones? On the other hand, it might be official again soon in one Asian country (Philippines). --Purplefire 02:44, 28 October 2007 (UTC) Spanish is official in Africa in 3 countries: Equatorial Guinea, Gabon (Cocobeach) and Spain (Ceuta, Melilla, and Canary islands are geographically in Africa). In Europe is official in Spain. In Andorra is official de facto (the most spoken language of the country).
- The only way for Spanish to be an official language in the Philippines is via constitutional amendments which hasn't happened since the constitution was approved in 1987. --Howard the Duck 05:43, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Intentional desinformation on languages in Moldova
User 212.182.118.70 keeps undoing edits on official languages in Moldova (the same goes for a good number of pages related to Moldova on Wikipedia), thus intentionally desinforming the reader. I do not want to violate the 3-revert rule (which I have done by now, I guess with four edits on 4 November). Could someone advise, what could be done in this case, please? Thank you. Moldopodo 19:00, 4 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
[edit] FRENCH
French is official in Lebanon (Asia) and in French Guinea (South America) with some islands.
[edit] Problems
I noticed some problems with this article. I'm not going to attempt to fix them myself since I consider this entire article to be a problem due to unsupported assertions (see WP:NOR and WP:V).
- At the bottom of the By number of continents: section there is a line which reads:
-
- numerous other languages, of which German (6 countries)
this edit changed that line line from:
- The Official languages of sovereign countries section lists 7 countries for German and 5 (or perhaps 7) countries for Italian.
- The Official languages of sovereign countries has a wikilink in its title. Note that WP:MOS#Section_headings says: "Avoid using links inside headings themselves (e.g.
==[[Ancient Rome|Roman]] colonization==). Instead, link from the first occurrence of the term in the prose of the section."
-- Boracay Bill (talk) 02:26, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] What is an official language?
Should not the article begin by explaining what it means by a country's "official language"?
If "official language" means one declared by law to be such, the United States has no official language. I strongly suspect that the same holds for several Commonwealth countries where English is the predominant language of the people. The same may perhaps be true also of very many countries in which a single language is dominant: has Japan legislated Japanese as the official language, or Germany German ... ?
But if an "official language" is one in which the country's laws are promulgated, then English is indeed the official language of the United States, Australia, etc., Italian is the official language of Vatican City State (not Latin: none of its laws and official regulations has ever been promulgated in Latin), and English (as well as Amharic) is an official language of Ethiopia.
For this article to be of value, surely it must state clearly what it is about. Lima (talk) 05:23, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
- I think an official language is one which is officially so: by statute or such. A de facto official language is one which functions as an official language without being officially so. Many such are listed here, with the appropriate note. Tb (talk) 15:12, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
- Then, I think, this definition should be stated at the start. And, if that's what "official language" is to mean in this article, I wonder if it wouldn't be better not to mix the official languages that are officially so with de-facto official languages (ones that merely function as official languages, either solely, as in the United States, or along with another, as in Ethiopia). Lima (talk) 10:57, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
- The definition of "official language" for purposes of this article should be concisely stated in the first few sentences of the article's lead section. The definition for purposes of this article should not conflict with the definition given in the Wikipedia article on official language. That article says, in part, "True official languages are those designated as such by a regulation or law, such as the Māori Language Act or the Welsh Language Act 1967. However many languages are considered to be de facto official languages, meaning that although a language may have no official status in a particular country, it is the most commonly used language in that country and the one usually used in official settings." Defining both de-jure and de-facto flavors of official language and stating that de-facto languages mentioned would be designated as such would be fine. Supporting sources should be cited for language designations in this article, of course. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 23:37, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
- Then, I think, this definition should be stated at the start. And, if that's what "official language" is to mean in this article, I wonder if it wouldn't be better not to mix the official languages that are officially so with de-facto official languages (ones that merely function as official languages, either solely, as in the United States, or along with another, as in Ethiopia). Lima (talk) 10:57, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Suggested Terms
- official - a language that is designated as official by local law (e.g French is the official language of France.)
- co-official - one of two or more languages that is designated as official by local law (e.g. German, French, Italian, and Romansh are co-official languages of Switzerland.)
- predominant - the language that is most widely used in speech and print (e.g. The United States has no official language, but English is predominant there.)
- widely-recognized - a language that is widely recognized in commerce and/or government activities. (e.g. Although English is predominant in the United States, Spanish is also widely-recognized by evidence of the many government documents available in Spanish.) --Danorton (talk) 15:54, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
- officially-recognized - a language that is not necessarily an official language, but is recognized by some decree or formal policy (e.g. Although the Mohawk Indian language is not widely-recognized in the United States, it is officially-recognized in Franklin County, New York according to federal government Language Minority practices mandated by the Voting Rights Act of 1965.) --Danorton (talk) 16:10, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Sounds great. Only problem (same as with a lot of other lists): does WP:NOR allow this kind of internal definitions? -- Jao (talk) 16:20, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't believe that such definitions reflect original research, but instead enforce consistency (WP:MOS) and reflect a consensus understanding of terms used. The terms should not rely on personal opinion: e.g. if one is to claim a language as officially-recognized, the claim should be supported with proper external references to facts that support such claim. --Danorton (talk) 16:38, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Vague, Controversial, and/or Self-Contradictory Terms
- de-facto official - I believe that many readers consider de-facto to be mutually exclusive with official. (Although a language might be the de-facto language in government, unless it's decreed so, it's not official.) I believe that use of the Suggested Terms above will avoid this conflict and controversy. --Danorton (talk) 16:25, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Australia
There is no de jure official language in Australia but there are other laws and regulations to note it as the de facto official language. For example various laws and regulations state that petitions to Parliament[1][2], patents[3], business records[4], financial statements[5], food nutritional labels[6], materials safety information[7], etc "must be in English". 203.7.140.3 (talk) 02:50, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Namibia
In the article on Namibia it says that German, Afrikaans and Oshiwambo are just recognised regional languages, whereas only English is official. This article currently mentions German, Afrikaans and English as official languages of Namibia. Additionally, the article contradicts itself by stating that German is official in only one continent. I think that we should remove Namibia from German and Afrikaans. Marcoscramer (talk) 17:02, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
- The Namibia article's infobox says, "German and Afrikaans were official languages until independence in 1990. The majority of the population speaks Afrikaans as a second language, while Oshiwambo is the first language of half the population. German is spoken by 32% of the European community whereas English is only spoken by 7%.", citing Namibia CIA World Fact Book as a supporting source. Article 3 of Namibia's 1990 constitution says, in part, "1) The official language of Namibia shall be English." I'll edit this article to reflect this and to cite Namibia's constitution as a supporting source. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 21:31, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Subnational entities mentioned in the listo of sovereign countries
Currently a number of subnational entities are mentioned in the list of official languages of sovereign countries. These should be removed and only be mentioned int he list of official languages of subnational entities. Marcoscramer (talk) 17:02, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Spanish is official in 20 countries, not 24
Spanish is official in 20 countries (or 21 if you count Puerto Rico separately), why does the article says 24? Easyboy82
Spanish is also official in USA (New Mexico, Puerto Rico, Miami, etc). It is also official in Gabon (in Cocobeach). In Andorra is official "de facto". It is the most spoken language of the country. There is a similar situation in Belize, where it is the most spoken language. At the same time, it is official in Rapa Nui (Easter island). So, it is also official in Oceania.
- Fixed it, although according to List of countries where Spanish is an official language it's 21 excluding Puerto Rico (which we should do because it's a list of soveriegn states). -- Jao (talk) 15:25, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
- There is an editor who is adding a few extra countries to the lists of Spanish as an official language. Official does not mean de facto. Spanish is not official in the U.S. except for a couple states where it's co-official. Puerto Rico is a U.S. territory and not a sovereign state. Easter Island is part of Chile and not a separate state. Catalan is the only official language of Andorra, and English is the only official language of Belize. Yes, Spanish may be widely spoken, but official and commonly spoken are not the same. The U.S. does not have an official language, but English is the national language. Kman543210 (talk) 11:10, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
