Talk:List of The Rutles fictional albums
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[edit] Listing sources of album and song titles
I think we should list the sources of these albums and songs. Are they from the first movie, second, or created for some other purpose? I'm a big rutles fan, but I don't recognize albums like Finchley Road or songs like Got to Get You Into My Wife and If I Sixty-Nine? Where did they come from?
I agree. There are an awful lot of album and song titles I don't recognize here- mainly their solo work. So I added "citation needed" to a bunch of them.
Nuka Lives 00:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Fake album titles?
A Google search came up with absolutely nothing on "Savage Young Rutles", "Rubbery Mole" or "Yesterday Tomorrow and Lunchtimes" except mirrors of this page. Suggesting removal unless Foxearth appears and offers proof.
Nuka Lives (talk) 00:52, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Let's be natural
Let's be natural, in the movie, appeared in the shabby road sessions. It really sounds like dear prudence, but it also sounds like Across the universe, and a bit like Something. I'm pretty sure it is supposed to be a little Something parody because in the video clip, Dirk appears with his wife, just like in the Something video clip where the beatles appear with their wives. Don't you think it should be moved to Shabbey Road, and changed into Something?
I'd have to disagree. The video is a parody of the Something video, but the song I think is just a Dear Prudence parody and nothing more. Nuka Lives (talk) 17:22, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
It may sound like Dear prudence, but it is not 100% clear that it's Dear Prudence. It sounds really like Across the universe too, and across the universe appears on the Let it be album, and this song is actually from the Let it be and Abbey road sessions. I think that it should be, at least, listed on the shabbey road album, because it really appears there in the movie!
Across the Universe was written and recorded in early 1968 before the Beatles left for India, around the same time Lady Madonna and Hey Bulldog were recorded. That was before Dear Prudence even existed! It was resurrected during the Let it Be sessions, but the album features an overdubbed version of the '68 recording. Nuka Lives (talk) 19:09, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, you're right, but the song also sounds like Julia. You can't say it's Dear Prudence because it's not 100% sounds like it.
it should be moved at least to the shabbey road album because it's really there! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.70.134.70 (talk) 20:17, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Follow the Bassline...you can even sing "Dear Prudence" to it. Eric Idle used several songs to represent different eras incorrectly. Primest Example: "Living In Hope" clearly a parody of "Don't Pass Me By",but Idle needed a 1964 Ringo/Barry song. Much to Idle's peeve,Innes would correct this with "Easy Listening" in 1996. ( Which Eric used to correct the situation in "Rutles 2:Can't Buy Me Lunch".)--Harvey J Satan (talk) 19:22, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
By sloppily dubbing the song onto "Living In Hope" footage, yes. But placing it in The Rutles goes against the liner notes. Idle obviously thought the "Act Naturally" side of the song was stronger and used it as the "Ringo song" of '65. Personally I think it ought to be on Ouch!.
I think maybe Innes wrote "Easy Listening" so that Barry would have a "Don't Pass Me By" again.
But "Let's Be Natural", obviously a pastiche of "Dear Prudence", was incorrectly placed on Shabby Road in the liner notes. Nuka Lives (talk) 20:23, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
The sloppy dub job, Idle admits was on purpose - more for Rutle fans than an attempt to get a job as a dubbing artiste. ( Note you never see John Halsey's face when the singing is going on. ). Made me laugh on first viewing. As far as album placements...Rutlelore suffers the same problem as Beatlelore,and the whole EMI/Capitol debacle: U.S. & U.K. albums didn't become uniform until "Sgt.Pepper". ( And even then the U.S. managed to squeeze out "Get Back" and an album version of the "Magical Mystery Tour" E.P. ).Not to mention all those U.K. singles & E.P.s that never saw U.S. rlease.( The U.S. more or less cribbed them as albums, not seen in the U.K.,like "Something New","Second Album","Yesterday...and Today" etc.) The biggest problem of all this,is Eric Idle didn't write the million page Rutle-Bible required to cover all the varients! ( The jerk! ). But as Innes has mentioned,Idle would write something like "I Am The Waitress",and Neil had already written "Piggy In The Middle"...the problem of two guys writing idependently,in a hurry,to produce the film.--Harvey J Satan (talk) 21:13, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Questionnaire
Questionnaire is actually based on The Fool On The Hill, in the begginning of the song you can hear the flutes, just like in the fool on the hill.
It does have flutes, yes, but the song I think is supposed to be like a generic Lennon tune. If you listen closely, it also has elements of "Imagine", "Maybe I'm Amazed" (oddly enough), "I Am the Walrus" and others I can't readily identify... There really isn't a Beatles song you could match it with. Nuka Lives (talk) 17:32, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately SEVERAL Innes/Rutle songs suffer from "cross-over". "Cheese & Onions" has elements of "A Day In The Life","Imagine" and "Mind Games"...Idle used it to represent "The Yellow Submarine"cartoon-era.So where does one place it? I'd go with whichever song it comes closest to."Questionnaire" is definitely "The Fool On The Hill".
All I could do is repeat what I said above, so I won't. We don't need to match every Rutles song with a specific Beatles song. That's clearly impossible. "Hold My Hand" combines "Eight Days a Week", "All My Loving", "She Loves You" and "I Want to Hold Your Hand". Nuka Lives (talk) 20:23, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Been meaning to mention... if we accept that "Love Life" is "All You Need Is Love",and The Beatles sing "She Loves You" in the fade out of "All You Need Is Love"...then clearly The Rutles singing "Hold My Hand" in the "Love Life" fade out,seals the deal! ( "Yeah Yeahs" aside. )--Harvey J Satan (talk) 05:56, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Back In 64 v. When I'm 64 v.Maxwell Silver Hammer
Many folks get this VERY confused. If Neil Innes were Allan Sherman or Wierd Al...then it's definitely "When I'm 64". BUT since the song incorporates harmonium ( absent from "When" ),and backing vocal responses ( absent from "When" ),and is a "down" song ( as opposed to "jolly" "When" ),it has more in common with "Maxwell Silver Hammer". Also of note,missing is the clanging bell from "When"...which there are ample points to throw it into "Back". No other Rutles song parody has such an overly obvious parody title.--Harvey J Satan (talk) 19:39, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
"Back in '64" is a pastiche of "When I'm 64", "Maxwell's Silver Hammer" (which actually employs a Moog synthesizer, not a harmonium), and "Honey Pie". It's meant to be a generic Paul-does-Roaring-Twenties tune. I know we can agree on that. So where do you put it?
Might as well go with the obvious, I say. Nuka Lives (talk) 19:50, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I'd put it on "Shabby Road" as Neil has confirmed it's NOT "When I'm 64".--Harvey J Satan (talk) 19:53, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Do you have proof? That's what really matters. Nuka Lives (talk) 20:12, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Do you? Thought not.Seriously,that's slightly childish. I can ask you if you have proof of anything you say,but without a mass media audio-visual show,apparently I should immediately assume you've made this all up for the benefit of...? I can only tell you I've sat with Neil Innes and had conversations with him about The Rutles. He knows me,and people know he knows me. Sheesh.--Harvey J Satan (talk) 20:20, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm going to ignore your insult, deletion of my reply and whatever it is you're trying to express here (I can't tell) and ask again- Do you have proof that Neil Innes has said that "Back in '64" is not a parody of "When I'm 64"? This is a serious, legitimate question. Nuka Lives (talk) 20:34, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Your reply was merely a simple "Do you?" hardly ground breaking. I've seriously given a reply,above. But since a private or public,un-recorded audience with Neil won't sate you,what more is there to say? I could have several friends whom were present agree,but you'd imply they are wrong too.Sorry I can't supply an affidavit written in Neil's own blood. But then again,you can't supply anything by Neil Innes declaring "Back" IS a parody of "When". Sort of a stalemate.--Harvey J Satan (talk) 20:51, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
No, actually, see, if you did have your friends stand by you, I might actually be more willing to believe you. The problem is, a bunch of random people who claim they've met and talked with Neil Innes won't stand up in Wikipedia. It's like if you and your cousin said, "George Lucas once told me that Star Wars is actually about the struggle of the proletariat and his love of explosions". Nobody would believe you even if you knew it was true. It would be deleted immediately. I'm not defending any personal viewpoint, I'm looking for something that could back up your claim. You don't have any, so why should let any of your unverified claims stay in the article? Nuka Lives (talk) 21:08, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
You needn't defend any viewpoint I have. I'm merely asking why any of YOUR unverifiable items be included either?( "Revolter",until you hear otherwise? ) Fair's fair.The world is full of hearsay,I know it too well. You can only chose to believe what you wish to.If I were truely desperate,I'd claim I am Neil...but then again,that's not varifiable online either.I'm just trying to contribute,if that's suspect,delete away,someone else will always be trying to correct it anyways. Harvey J Satan (talk) 21:21, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I had nothing to do with the name "Revolter". That's Foxearth's creation, I just happen to find it funnier than "Rutler". Nuka Lives (talk) 21:24, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry,I should've said "Whoever threw out "Revolter". Mea culpa.
- Frankly I didn't find "Major Happy" as funny as "Sgt.Rutter" ,but there you go. "Rutler" is in keeping a lot closer to the continuous "Rut" joke than "Revolter".Fans tend to think the album titles should all be negative titles:for example "The Shiite Album".Fans should recall that both Idle & Innes respect The Beatles too much to go down such a shallow path.
- I must also stand corrected about the "harmonium" , yes it was a "moog" being used on "Back In 64"...and "Maxwell Silver Hammer"...but not on "When I'm 64" or "Honey Pie"( which was Rutlized as "My Little Ukelele".). Just saying...--Harvey J Satan (talk) 23:02, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] "Fanfiction"
The solo albums that you consider "fanfiction" were created for a video "The Rutles, together again" featuring Neil Innes. I myself have not seen this video, but all evidence points to it being at least semi-official, so if you will, please leave them be until the video turns up on the internet again so that this can be verified.
"If I Sixty-Nine" was in fact mentioned by Carrie Fisher in the bonus features for The Rutles 2.
Revolter is a name given to The Rutles version of Revolver for the time being until an official name appears. This can be mentioned in the article if you want it. Otherwise, please leave it alone until then. Nuka Lives (talk) 17:17, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Dear Nuka ~
About The Rutles...
It's all about LINER NOTES. Originally,all Rutles releases ( The "Apple Years" ) are credited as "Rutle Corps.",this has more recently been changed to "Banana" as shown in Eric Idle's "Rutles 2: Can't Buy Me Lunch".
"Under My Skin"(2007) and "Goose Step Mama"(1978) have always been credited to the Hamburg years,which the first C.D. release on Rhino Records credits as "The Silver Rutles".
"Archaeology" vs "Anthology"...er...whatelse would it be a parody of ? Yes,it's all material recorded in 1995/96. But like "Anthology" it's supposed to be compiled of old songs and alternate takes. I merely credit the relevant song,as the others are all integrated into the page.
The "Solo" albums and false song titles I've continously deleted ARE Fan Fiction. You've got a page crediting those items as being by Eric Idle & Neil Innes,this is incorrect,and they should NOT be credited as such.Taly & Johnson DO NOT represent Eric Idle or Neil Innes,and should not be presented as such with links to their fictional works.
"unseen video" does not lend itself well to "actual video". Several online fans have created fictional Rutles videos on YouTube.( as well as those at NeilInnes.Org ). "When I'm Sixty-Nine" ,like most of the lines by celebrities in "Rutles2",were ad-libbed. Idle kept it in...but does that count as an Idle creation or a Fisher? ( I think it would be very amusing to include it as "Song by Carrie Fisher".)."Rutler" was one Neil suggested at a Beatlefest,because of it's duo meaning, "Rutler" as in a Rutles album or phonetically,"Rutle-Her",slightly naughty. Makes more sense. ( But then he's also called the "White Album" the "Wheat Album" ...madness.)
I am a major fan of the Rutles,and want to see them properly credited,that's all. This is not a personal vedeta. If fans want to write fictional Rutles material,that's cool by me...but let's properly creit it. Okay?
--Harvey J Satan (talk) 19:05, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
You seem to be as firm about this article being correct as I am, I'll say that. But you are still making serious errors.
I personally do not consider ANYTHING in Rutles 2 that contradicts the original film to override or rewrite The Rutles' "history". I actually think that they are, in fact, errors on Idle's part.
"Goose Step Mama" appears in the film being performed by The Rutles at the Cavern Club, not Hamburg. Rhino's liner notes state the song was originally released on a bootleg called The Silver Rutles' Demo Sessions. There is NOTHING that states that this or "Under My Skin" were released in any form whatsoever in the '60s. It is fanfiction.
Archaeology, as it says on the official Rutles website, was recorded during their final days and buried in a time capsule to be dug up a thousand years later. It is not a retrospective of their career like Anthology, that is fanfiction. It is an unreleased album like The Beach Boys' Smile. The problem is that it includes pastiches of The Beatles' entire career, which is why the songs have been spread out to more appropriate albums in the article.
Like I said, I would like the solo albums to remain where they are until someone can confirm that Neil Innes was indeed involved with the Johnson's video.
If you have proof that "If I Sixty-Nine" is an ad-lib, or that Neil Innes actually said that The Rutles version of Revolver should be called Rutler, I am willing to see it.
As for your interpretations of which Rutles song matches which Beatles song, they are guesses at best. Being a musician and a Beatle freak, I can safely say that most of them are wrong. Nuka Lives (talk) 19:45, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes,The Beatles did performed "Some Other Guy" as well as several other songs as "The Silver Beatles" & "The Beatles" in Hamburg and at The Cavern. Thus the connection,as proven on the Rhino C.D. noted.
- "Under My Skin" has been sited on numerous occaisions by Neil at Beatlefest as "an early recording at a private party".Sorry I didn't video his reply or some one on one conversations.
- The celeb ad-libs are all covered by Eric's video commentaries. He basically gave the celebs the names of The Rutles,and told them to insert those names over The Beatles. ( This technique was used in "All You Need Is Cash" and "Can't Buy Me Lunch".)
- As a musician,I too know my tempos,beats,notes,etc. Beatles fan,Bonzo fan,Innes fan too,go figure...not being an actual member of any of those groups makes EVERYBODY's guesess guessess.
- Filling in the "undeclared songs" is fairly simple,check the catalog numbers on The Rutles/Rhino release...they match specific Beatles items.
- Considering all of Eric's "Rutle2" material as mis-remembers,then negates ANY item not from "All You Need Is Cash"...so any "Archaeology" track is moot,"If I'm Sixty-Nine" is moot,and all the solo albums not mentioned in 1978 are moot.Then again...the 1976 Rutland Weekend Television sketch,where this all began, says they're from Rutland and played The Cavern Rutland,never from Liverpool."All You Need Is Cash" mis-remembers stuff too.
- To quote George Harrison on "The Rutles", "It's all, part of the soup!" --Harvey J Satan (talk) 20:17, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Can somebody translate this? I'm not making fun of you, I seriously can barely understand what you're saying here. Nuka Lives (talk) 20:29, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Sure.( And bare in mind I'm not making fun of anyone either.) Translation:According to your statement above, Anything NOT from "All You Need Is Cash" is moot. ( A slang term,here meaning, "of little or no importance". ). Furthermore,anything that dis-agrees or tweeks your perceptions on The Rutles is moot. We all get things wrong at sometime, Harold.Myself included. --Harvey J Satan (talk) 20:42, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't believe at all that anything not from All You Need Is Cash is moot. If I did, I would immediately remove The Triangular Album, which is actually my favorite part of Rutles 2. My only belief is that Eric Idle forgot some things from the first film.
Moot isn't a slang word, just so you know. Also- why are you calling me Harold? Nuka Lives (talk) 20:51, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Yeah,I almost suggested deleting the "Triangle" Album,as it's an obvious take on "The White Album"( as far as it being so "ground breaking" )...but the label shows "A Hard Day's Rut" era image,at a time when a triangle shaped disc was inconceivable.It's sort of one of those suspension of dis-belief items.Still amusing though.
RE:"Harold",John Lennon generic reference,as seen being said to a reporter he didn't know by name. ( He was also taking a poke at then British P.M. Harold Wilson...grandfather of the also popular Jackie Wilson,brother of Flip Wilson.). Basically trying to keep things silly AND civil.--Harvey J Satan (talk) 21:00, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Here's a suggestion: I revert the article to the last version by myself, and if you can leave the article alone for a little while, I'll attempt to make some sort of compromise of the differences between the two. If you don't like it, we can continue discussing here, but even if that happens, I ask you to not change it back until we can work this out. Nuka Lives (talk) 21:27, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Look...in a nutshell...here's all I have ever suggested... only using the actual works of Eric Idle or Neil Innes.Everybody tends to debate what song = what song,fair enough. The fact of the matter is,in numerous interviews,Neil has said for the most part none of the songs in "All You Need Is Cash" set out as specific song parodies. Eric told him,"I need something for 1964",and Neil wrote something "1964-Beatley". ( Another reason why some songs don't match the era on film. ). I feel it's fair game to shuffle them however you wish. But FAN works should be seperated and credited as such. That's all.We can still have fun sorting out Neil & Eric's works. I just don't want to see Eric Idle or Neil Innes credited for works they didn't create.--Harvey J Satan (talk) 22:53, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I just had an e-mail conversation with the owners of NeilInnes.org, and from what they say, I think we can confirm that those solo albums are fan-created.
By the way, I just finished. Take a look and tell me what you think. Nuka Lives (talk) 07:38, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Yeah,it's looking good! ( To quote some singer ).The Neil Innes.Org folk,are the "friends" I mentioned above. ( I try not to be too braggy about it.) The one thing you should do though,is put down "My Sweet Rut" as a single by Stig O'Hara.( Since,if memory serves, "My Sweet Lord" was released as a single before the album. Takes care of two birds with one stone,since there is no "official" album.). And Nuka,I'm sorry if I've come across as Mr.Bossy Boots,but those Fakeries kinda cheese me off a little,I realize it's not you that created them.--Harvey J Satan (talk) 15:44, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Are you sure "Under My Skin" should be on Silver Rutles? While it is the only bootleg in the Rutles universe, and the only place that track would logically fit, I haven't seen anything that says it is in fact on the album. Nuka Lives (talk) 17:29, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Neil's official word on "Under My Skin",as told at Beatlefests,was that it's supposed to be an "early Rutles recording at a private party". So logically if someone recorded it...it should be on a Bootleg,and since no other bootleg has been mentioned. Seems the obvious choice.( Also of note,Neil said the track was scheduled to be released on the first version of "Archaeology" but was only going to be available if you bought the disc at a chain store like WalMart or Target! )--Harvey J Satan (talk) 05:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Rutles Fan Fiction
You know it,you love it,you may have even inadvertantly accepted it as the truth - as seen on the internet - so why not take the time and create a page for all of your Rutle Fan Fiction needs? ( Or at least a contribution thread here. ). We've all got at least one Beatles joke in out head...spill it out here!
- John Lennon's "Mind Games" is Ron Nasty's "Brain Farts"
- Paul McCartney's "McCartney II" is Dirk McQuickly's "McQuickly II"
- George Harrison's "33 & a 1/3" is Stig O'Hara's "69 & Some Change"
- Ringo Starr's "Sentimental Journey" is Barry Wom's "Tempermental Journey"
Give it a go kids! --Harvey J Satan (talk) 20:42, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Do we really need this? Nuka Lives (talk) 07:38, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Why not? Folks are gonna create fan fiction anyway,so why not let them get it out of their system here,rather than the main body of the article? It satisfies two needs,and seperates the Idle/Innes from "everybody else".--Harvey J Satan (talk) 15:36, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Innes' Other Rutles/Beatles Tunes?
While we're sorting Apples & Bananas... what is everybody's thoughts on stuff Neil wrote/co-wrote as "Beatle-like" ,pre-Rutles? Should it be included? Here's what's in question:
- "Readymades" - written while in The Bonzo Dog Band ,many consider it a parody of "Eleanor Rigby",the French horn reminds me of "For No One"
- "Give Booze A Chance" - co-written with Vivian Stanshall,performed by The Bonzo Dog Band as part of the song "Sofa Head" ,an obvious parody of "Give Peace A Chance".
- "Plenty Of Time" written while in "GRIMMS" , Neil did a Rutle demo version ala "Because",but shelved it. It is the actual Rutles,but not released...yea or nay?
Just curious to know what fans think.--Harvey J Satan (talk) 23:48, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
There are a number of Bonzo/solo Neil tunes that are similar to Beatles songs, such as "Tinsel and String", obviously inspired by "Happy Christmas (War Is Over)", and "Montana Cafe", which sounds remarkably like "I Am the Walrus". But since these weren't written for (or rerecorded for, as with "Shangri-La", "Knicker Elastic" etc.) The Rutles, I don't think they should be included.
"Plenty of Time", however, may be better off in the main Rutles article, as it is now. Nuka Lives (talk) 07:44, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I've always felt the "Tinsel" thing was wishful fan thinking. But yeah, "Montana Cafe" spot on! Either it was Rutle overlap,nearly a Rutle,or Neil being Superclever by making a parody of his own parody! ( Yikes! ) Or maybe he just needed a longer break between song writings.--Harvey J Satan (talk) 05:52, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Travolta?
I realise,having not read the article in question,it might be a bit pre-mature to dismiss the entry...but shouldn't this be dismissed as "high spirits",some giddy joke during the interview? I only bring this up,as Eric Idle & Neil Innes did a "Tommy" parody for "Rutland Weekend Television". It was called "Pommy" and it was about a deaf,dumb and blind guy ( Idle ) trying to escape a Ken Russell film! ( With Innes dressed as Elton John's Pinball Wizard. ). Innes even did a parody song, " Concrete Jungle Boy". So it seems odd that any of them would do a retread of this joke...and by linking John Travolta to the 1960's it absolutely queers the Rutles Semi-Reality.--Harvey J Satan (talk) 01:30, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
All I know about the article the Travolta section is referring to is that it exists (I've seen it mentioned on Rutles fansites). I've never read it, I can't find a copy of it online, and I don't know where to buy it. So I'm doubtful that anything that supposedly originates from it is even true. Nuka Lives (talk) 17:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
