Talk:List of Danish monarchs

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I'm still missing some of the english names for the danish monarchs.

I hope someone can help out.

Christian, Sunday, June 9, 2002

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I added entry for Frederick II - because he is the father of Anne of Denmark and father in law of James I of England

Richhill, Saturday, June 15, 2002

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Your page are do not like my page http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagnkonger

Adam of Bremen was a serious chronicler. I wonder whether the dubiousness of the kings preceeding Gorm the Old has anything to do with their being Swedes.--Wiglaf 08:20, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There was no ethnic or linguistically between danes and swedes at the time. The line is started at Gorm the Old because it from there is complete and all kings decendents

Answer: Harald Blue tooth is the first danish king, Gorm the Old is likely only to be king of Jutland. The division of Denmark (Rule olso apply to Sweden and Norway) into smaller kingdoms, is a repaeting event in danish history

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The coat of arms is wrong!

Contents 1 Harthacanute/Canute the Hardy/Hardeknud 1.1 Names used in the Great Danish Encyclopedia 2 "Houses" 3 Haabet and Huskarl's recent edits 4 Danish contributor indefinitely blocked 5 We need a new dummy image 6 Kings/Queens 7 Image copyright problem with Image:Danish king frederik 9 and kjartan mohr, faroe islands.jpg 8 Fair use rationale for Image:CoinHarthacnut.jpg 9 Image copyright problem with Image:CanuteGreat.JPG

[edit] Harthacanute/Canute the Hardy/Hardeknud

Harthacanute is the name usually used in English for King Canute's son, the name Canute the Hardy being less well-known; but that refers to his reign in England, not in Denmark; the article Harthacanute says: He succeeded his father as King of Denmark in 1035, reigning as Canute III. The use of both Canute and Cnut on this list is inconsistent (since the spelling Knud is consistent in Danish, why do we have the first king called Harthacnut, with the spelling cnut, and the next two called Canute? I suggest the father of Gorm be called Harthacanute (despite the use of Harthacnut for his Wikipedia article title) to match the spelling of the later kings in English, and that Canute the Hardy be called Canute III on the list, since there's no logic in translating him as the Hardy when the previous king of the same name was not so translated (we need here an English translation of what the Danes call him as a Danish king rather than a copy of what the English call him as an English king). This would leave everything consistent, the only remaining anomaly being the article titled Harthacnut, a change to which might be addressed as a separate matter. qp10qp 18:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

A bit late perhaps: There is a general and spesific debate on how to name monarchs here. I believe the monarch articles should in the overwhelming majority of cases follow the common convention. As to the spesific problem I suggest making your changes and see what happens. They seem logical and if it makes the list more consistant it's probably good :) Inge 18:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Names used in the Great Danish Encyclopedia

These names are used by the Great Danish Encyclopedia (Store Danske Encyklopædi):

• Knud 1. Hardegon, Hardeknud Svendsen (d. 934.) In the text, he is referred to as "Hardegon".
• Knud 2. den Store (ca. 995-1035) (=Canute the Great)
• Knud 3. Hardeknud (1020-42). In the text, he is referred to as "Hardeknud".
• Knud 4. den Hellige (d. 10 July 1086) (literally: Canute the Holy)
• Knud 5. Magnussen (d. 1157). In the text, he is referred to as "Knud"
• Knud 6. Valdemarsen (1163-1202). In the text; referred to as "Knud".

I don't think the "full names" are used normally. Canute the Great and Canute the Saint are referred to by these names. Not sure about Canute III but I guess "Hardeknud" would be the name normally used for him. He died very young and never left any lasting impact. I don't know much about the disputed origins of Canute I, but I noticed that the Great Danish Encyclopedia refers to him as "Hardegon". Regards. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 10:57, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Someone has moved the page Harthacnut of Denmark to Hardecnudth of Denmark, on the grounds that that is his oldest name. I think this is getting silly now. It's not so much a question of what these kings' earliest names were as about how they are best spelled in English (or else we would have to call William I Guillaume I. And there has to be consistency between kings' article pages and the list here, surely — not to mention consistency between spellings of different kings with the same names. The convention on Wikipedia is that names should be the ones most commonly used in English; the trouble with this early Hardecanute/Hardecnut/Hardecnudth/Hardeknud/Harthacnut/Harthacanute/Hardegon chap is that he isn't much known in England and so hasn't achieved a regular name. But I think his name should somewhere include the spelling "canute", as that is the most comment English way to spell that name, the second most common being "cnut". As for Hardecnudth. I note that this list gives knud as the spelling of the last part as the Danish version; the extra th, for me as an Englishman, adds nothing but consonant pile up.qp10qp 18:01, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Houses"

We have had patri- and matrilineality in the Danish royal house since the Viking Age, so it is one big family or "house" from Hardeknud/Gorm onwards till the present day. Danish historians will sometimes use the terms "House of Oldenburg" and "House of Glücksburg", but never start a new house with Svend Estridsen. --dllu 14:05, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

True. I've been puzzled by that as well. It seems this page is mainly edited by non-danes, and apparently with some kind of swedish bias. Carewolf 11:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. The same goes for the article on "legendary" kings, where the author seems to insist that Denmark was ruled by a "Swedish dynasty" in the early 10th century, when in fact we know next to nothing about these people. Most likely, they only held power in a small part of the country. And as a Danish historian I can say that most historians do not start with Gorm; the general consensus today is that several of the kings in the 9th century were just as historical as Gorm - maybe even more.

And just to clarify my comment above: women couldn't officially become Queen (Regnant) before 1953. Margrethe I only managed to do so via a series of fortunate events and some skillful political manuevering. However, the throne could be inherited through a female line, which is exactly what Svend did. He inherited the throne from his grandfather through his mother. Heck, he even took her name as a matronym to acknowledge it!

This is also the reason why all the monarchs since Hardeknud/Gorm really belong to one big dynasty, although the Oldenburg and Glücksburg houses have been established in tradition (and the "break" was much bigger at those occations), so they should stay. The "House of Svend" shouldn't. Instead, some of the pre-Gorm kings should be added to this page, which I might do soon unless someone has a valid objection. --dllu 11:33, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't like the first "houses" either but Oldenburg and Glücksburg are ok due to convention and because the royals use these terms themselves. Does anybody know if the other "houses" is due to an English tradition? I guess the average Dane would normally consider the Queen to be a Glücksburger - if anything at all - but it looks like English practice is to group the Glücksburgers under the Oldenburg heading. My knowledge about the medieval situation is too sketchy to tell if the English tradition also differs in this respect. Valentinian ^{T / C} 12:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Glücksburg is usually grouped as a "cadet branch" (so I learned I new English term today :oP) of Oldenburg in the Danish tradition too - because it is one, plain and simple. Chr. IX was a descendant of John the Younger, Duke of SH-Sonderburg, who in turn was the second son of Chr. III.

Similarly, Oldenburg is a cadet branch of the "House of Gorm" or whatever you want to call it (A term often used in Danish is the "Jelling Dynasty", but I'm not particularly fond of that). Chr. I was a great x4-grandson of Erik Klipping.

See the official site kongehuset.dk for the visual presentation. --dllu 15:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

What I meant is simply that I found it a bit odd that Wikipedia refers to Prince Philip as an Oldenburger rather than a Glücksburger, that is all. You are quite right that the Glücksburgers are a cadet branch of the House of Oldenburg. Back to the original mess, I agree that "House of Gorm" and "Jelling Dynasty" are both inadequate. Another option would be cheating; simply using the terms "Viking Age monarchs" and "Medieval monarchs". Valentinian ^{T / C} 15:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

House of Harald Blåtand? Anyway the politics of wikipedia is not to do independent research so we should use whatever is most common among experts. If that is "Jelling Dynasty" we should use it, and then include criticism if necessary. Carewolf 10:07, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

It seems the user Wiglaf that was adding all the swedish nonsense to the monarch list has quit the wikipedia project, so it should be safe to revert it without edit wars Carewolf 10:07, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Please, no Danish nonsense provided by Carewolf and Haabet[1]. Carewolf's support of the OR provided Haabet (who is banned from Danish WP) is a disgrace.--Holger the Dane 11:52, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

In fact, the Royal House has three sections on their own web site: "Gorm den Gamle", "Oldenborg", and "Glücksborg", so maybe "House of Gorm" would be the most "correct" name? I still think it sounds a bit funny, though.

As for the Viking Age/Medieval idea, it is debatable when the VA ended. You could say Svend was both the last Viking an first Medieval king. I still vote for one long list from Gorm to Christopher III. (But the years for the first Hardeknud are pure conjecture, and the reference was deleted, so we don't even know where the author got 917). Also, I think the kings before Hardeknud/Gorm should be listed here too. They are no less "legendary" than Gorm or any other Viking king, just because they are only mentioned in foreign sources - in fact, that probably just makes them more "real".

I'll wait a bit, but if there are no objections, from Swedes or anybody else ;o), I will close the gap before Svend E., correct the years, and add the 9th century kings that are considered historical by any serious historian. --dllu 11:23, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I have no objections to one long list covering everyone before Christian I. "Early Danish monarchs"? "Viking Age / early Medieval period"? Sounds great if you could add more information about those monarchs that are backed up by something else than Saxo. Valentinian ^{T / C} 11:31, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Holger, what are you talking about? I reinstated one correction from Haabet, where half of it turned out to be wrong. Sorry Carewolf 12:48, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

You appear to be critical of foreign editors[2][3] whereas you uncritically have accepted a crazy addition by Haabet. Please, be mature enough to look beyond nationality in the future, if you want to be taken seriously by other editors. Among the Scandinavian countries only Denmark appears to provide editors such as user:Haabet, user:Comanche cph and user:Arigato1, which is highly disturbing.--Holger the Dane 13:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Timeout! Stick to commenting on the subject at hand not the contributors. Regarding the material, stick to well-sourced material, e.g. the Great Danish Encyclopedia / recent scholarship by well-respected historians etc. Valentinian ^{T / C} 13:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I have merged the houses and added some of the earlier kings. A couple of them don't have individual entries yet, but I will do that soon, if nobody beats me to it. :o)

I wont lower myself to the level of namecalling, but there sure is a lot of cleaning up to do in this subject, especially in the separate articles on various Viking kings... --dllu 17:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, that looks really good. However, we really need some references or explainations to the pre-Gorm entries. Where did you get them? Carewolf 09:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

After have looked at Holger the Dane contributions, it seems like his only reason to be here is to accuse editors for vandalism and removing context describing Danes or legendary Danish kings. I have reverted some of his edits. Huskarl 09:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

As early as his 7th and 8th edits ever, Huskarl not only reinserts original reseach by the blocked user:Arigato1 (aka user:Comanche cph), he also makes the same language error ("removing of" instead of "removal of").--Holger the Dane 15:24, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

PS, since I don't want to accuse anyone unfairly of being Comanche cph/Arigato1's sockpuppet, I have added a checkuser request on Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Arigato1.--Holger the Dane 15:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Language error? Mate i think you should relax a little before acusing others for sockpuppet, as you do here. That is not a nice way to act. Just keep to the subject as user:Valentinian have pointed out for you. I simple reinserted what you have removed about the relationship with widukind and sigurd ring, witch in german texts is known as "Siegfred". And your >removal< of Harald Wartooth is Sigurd Rings oncle, -witch really shows that you just remove what you feel like without knowing anything about it. All sites i have read about, says the same.

For me it seems like you only are here for destroy all the text that decripe them as Danes, witch those persons clearly were. I was wondering why you on your user page have two big photos of the Danish flag and the legendary Danish hero "Holger the Dane" witch also is your name user name..... Do you try to camuflage something? --Huskarl 18:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Let's stick to the subject. You claim that a Danish king named Sigfried was identical to Sigurd Ring which sounds highly speculative and that Sigurd Ring was buried in Lejre and not in for instance Skiringssal in modern Norway, where he died. The addition of such assertions needs to be backed up with references. It is as simple as that.--Holger the Dane 19:14, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the Lejre part. But you have still not answered why you have removed part that he was nephew of Harald Wartooth (Harald Hildetand) and that he was Danish. --Huskarl 21:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The lead should only contain information that is not contradicted by the article itself. I hope you agree on that. Some sources say that Sigurd Ring's father was born in Russia, while the Danish Gesta Danorum says that his father was the king of Sweden. This makes it peculiar to call him a "Danish king of Denmark" in the intro. Moreover it is equally unreasonable to call him the "paternal nephew" of Harald Hildetand (which he was in some sources) when Gesta Danorum says that Sigurd was Harald's maternal nephew.--Holger the Dane 12:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Exactly what does danish mean at that timeperiod? Also claiming nationality of kings makes little sense, since they intermarry more with foreigners than locals. A king of Denmark is a Danish king, even if most of them came from Germany. A king of Sweden is a Swedish king even if he came from Denmark. Carewolf 06:04, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree.--Holger the Dane 12:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

@Carewolf: The names and years in the list of the pre-Gorm kings are off the top of my head. However, I have worked quite a bit with this specific period, and I assure you they are valid. I'm not at home and don't have access to all my own books at the moment, but as soon as I do, I will of course add references and articles on the red-links. --dllu 16:57, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Haabet and Huskarl's recent edits

I wonder if anyone would like to have a look at user:Haabet's recent edits of Guthfrith.--Holger the Dane 12:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

It looks like a very incomplete disambiguation page which we should have; there are lots of Viking Age Guthfriths/Gofraids to disambiguate if nothing else. I'm more concerned by the edits to the last part of Kings of the East Angles. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:49, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I am more concerned by this information:

Guthfrithus was the name of the father of Siegfried in the German Nibelungenlied, and Guthfrithus correspond to Gudroed (father of Sigurd Fafnersbane) in the corresponding Nordic legend.

Is this correct? As far as I know, Sigfried's father was called Siegemund in the Nibelungenlied, and Sigmund was Sigurd's father in the corresponding Nordic legends.--Holger the Dane 13:20, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

You're right. There's no Guthfrith in the Völsunga saga or the N. Lied. --dllu 17:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Apparently, User:Huskarl has reverted back to Haabet's version and is accusing me of being a Swedish nationalist movement in another edit.--Holger the Dane 11:26, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Danish contributor indefinitely blocked

Danish User:Arigato1, aka User:Huskarl, aka Comanche cph, etc., has been indefinitely blocked together with a slew of his sockpuppets (see Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Arigato1). If you find another unreceptive and stubborn user sprinkling "Danish" all over articles on Scandinavian kings, it may be another incarnation of this Danish editor. If you suspect that he has returned, please report him to an admin.--Holger the Dane 21:38, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] We need a new dummy image

If anybody has an idea for a new dummy image for the missing portraits it would be very welcome. The problem is that the coat of arms of Denmark can only be traced to the reign of Canute VI. Weak indicators point towards his father Valdemar I, but the use of this symbol before these two kings is a complete anachronism. Valentinian ^{T / C} 21:54, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kings/Queens

I would like to suggest that the queens be added to the list besides their kings, or that they at least should have their own list. I would be more than happy to do so! Niels H.L.N.

Sounds like a good idea, but I think a distinct list might be the best option. Have you seen List of Norwegian queens? And btw, such a list might better be named "List of Danish royal consorts" (or something along those lines) in order to include Prince Henrik. Valentinian ^{T / C} 00:01, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:Danish king frederik 9 and kjartan mohr, faroe islands.jpg

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[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:CoinHarthacnut.jpg

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