Talk:List of DC Multiverse worlds

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Contents 1 The cited material... 2 52 Table 3 Protected 4 Antimatter Universe 5 Earth-1289 6 Earth-Two vs 40s Golden Age Comics published by DC. 7 How many Earth S (Shazam)s are there? 8 New earth IS earth one. 9 Earth-C (pre-Crisis) and Earth 26 (post 52) 10 Forum post purportedly by a DC artist 11 Earth-H? Earth-U?

[edit] The cited material...

Can we cut the stuff that is structly fan spec and/or only supported by fan posts to forums? Case in point: Earth-1A is solely supported by a pair of fan posts on the Toonzone forum. - J Greb 15:51, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Then away it should go. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 15:05, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Earth 1A has no support other than fan support. Why is this acceptable? Ccm043 (talk) 01:46, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Magic-World was an alternate world which looked like Earth in the first series of Justice League of America. As such it should be considered an alternate Earth. Also the Merlin from this world gave them a crystal ball which allowed the JLA to communicate with the Justice Society of America. (Username: Doc Nero, User ID: 607107) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Doc Nero (talk • contribs) 20:33, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

A lot of the references regarding Countdown: Arena are messed up, refering to the wrong issue number for first appearances and such. It's like whoever wrote them wasn't even double-checking the issues. Chris411 (talk) 19:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I would like to say even when you can find reference material it can conflict with each other. Take Earth-154 as a prime example, It was called Earth-E by Mark Gruenwald in Omniverse #1, 1977 but The Official Crisis on Infinite Earths Index and Official Crisis on Infinite Earths Crossover Index called this Earth-2A and Alternate Earth-2 respectively. So what name do we use for this thing? A similar problem is that Earth-86 was an possible future timeline for Earth-1 as shown in "Costume, Costume, who has the Costume?" (Superman #295 (1976)) and therefor contained an Oa something parallel Earths in the Pre-Crisis DCU could not.--BruceGrubb (talk) 09:15, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 52 Table

It's pretty much a mess. Too much information is being forced into the cells. I think we need to get rid of some of the information, but I'm not sure how much can go.

Duggy 1138 (talk) 23:15, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, that was somewhere on my list of "side projects to do"... shortly after coming back and finishing a clean up of the referrences... - J Greb (talk) 23:54, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Bits can obviously be removed, but not enough to solve the problem.

The only solution I can see is making the table just the bare bones and have yet-another article which has a section on each of the worlds... however, that seems a bit like we're making too many pages.

Any other ideas?

Duggy 1138 (talk) 00:28, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Off the hop?

1. Removal of trivia. Like "Its Monitor has been nicknamed 'Bob.'" for New Earth.
2. Compacting "Inhabitants" and "Notes" into one field covering "Motif and publication notes".
3. Reducing the list of resident characters. A few should be enough to give the flavor of the universe.
4. Remove the "Cameo" distinction. If a universe first explicitly appears in a cameo, so be it. That is the first appearance. I'd also go with a universe first appearing when its Monitor is actively presented.
5. Reduce the plot point stuff. Some of the things cropping up belong in the Countdown or Countdown: Arena articles, if even there.

- J Greb (talk) 01:08, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

"Bits can obviously be removed, but not enough to solve the problem."

Duggy 1138 (talk) 01:12, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm playing with a new page here. Does it work or not?

Duggy 1138 (talk) 00:57, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

No... I think that would wind up worse than the table. - J Greb (talk) 01:09, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Worse in that it can get out of control? It certainly can.

Worse in that it will be as unreadable? I don't think so.

The benefit I'm seeing is that it gives the ability to link to a specific Earth (from, say, a character page, so you can have a link to the world the the new SHAZAM family Green Lantern comes from.

It also gives a starting point for if any of these worlds grow to need/deserve their own article...

However, as I said when I first suggested it, I'm not sure it's completely a good idea.

Duggy 1138 (talk) 01:16, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok... drop back and take a hard look at what this list page overall is doing. It's trying, with varying degrees of success, to nutshell the various universes from three distinct time frames in the DCU. Tables are very good for that since they are supposed to be based on minimal information.

The "52" section is breaking down because editors are trying to pour everything into the table, not just the important stuff. That's creating bloated cells.

The prose list you're suggesting works best when there's a lot of important stuff to cover for each entry. Right now only a handful, at best, of the universes have enough information to justify that type of listing. And even with those there are other places fo the material to be addressed, especially if it's going to be plot summary.

And then there's the fan field day you'd create setting up the "Appearances" and "Inhabitants" lists. Neither of which have a real place here.

- J Greb (talk) 01:31, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Not only are people trying to put everything into the cells on this page, but some of the older stuff that was put in because, at the time, there was no other information is being left in.

I think the spin-off page would absorb a lot of the stuff being poured into this table, but I don't think that that page should be thought of in terms of what this page is or isn't meant to do.

Yes, there is a fan-crud disaster waiting to happen with the 52verse page, but there are enough sensible editor around the comics pages to keep a cap on it...

Plus, if it goes completely off the rails, I'll nominate it for deletion if it has to be done.

Duggy 1138 (talk) 01:49, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I was mulling a bit on some of what got crammed in... some of the waffling notes, as well as the teases should have gone into the preface or a following paragraph. Discussion about the new multiverse as a whole, not the specific aspects. - J Greb (talk) 02:04, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't look like this is going to be easy.

Duggy 1138 (talk) 21:10, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

A lot of the article is skewed towards "is home to A, B, C. D, E and also in issue #XXX F appeared, and will appear again in #XXY. What we need is for example, Earth=8 is home of the Extremists, its characters are based on the this lot, this lot and this lot from pre-Crisis material. Or, Earth-10 is based off of Earth-X, and Grant Morrison has said that... and leave it. Isn't there a DC Database project for the fancrufty stuff? ~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 22:20, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

"Is home to", and "first appeared in" are the important things. Certainly, only important characters should be mentioned. With the Extremists, yes, it's based on the Champions of Angor, and the section says that. Earth-10 is based on Earth-X, yes. But importantly, it has the addition of the JLAxis. And Grant Morrison has said what? If it's "these aren't the same as the originals" then yeah, that needs to be said in the introduction, but not in the table, because it applies to at least 50% of the cells.

If there's too much fancruddy stuff, get rid of that stuff...

Duggy 1138 (talk) 22:58, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The Table still isn't working. It's great for a summary, but not for fully fledged universes. Shame people couldn't have seen this problem coming and done something about it.
Duggy 1138 (talk) 09:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Protected

I've protected the page for one week. I've based this on the edit history over the last couple of days, it seems to me an edit war is brewing. There's been some discussion on this talk page, it might be better to continue here rather than hammer out at the talk page. I don't want to see the article become a battleground. Let me know if the page can be unprotected before the week is up. Hiding T 18:50, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Antimatter Universe

The Antimatter Universe is mentioned three times in this article. Unlike the other universes, the Antimatter universe is essentially the same place. Should we create another section for this? Ccm043 (talk) 15:01, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

No, because the Antimatter Universe has effectively rebooted twice if not three times so the Pre-Crisis antimatter universe is not the same thing as the Post-Crisis (Which had a Crime Syndicate of Qward who were implied to have played the roles the old Pre-Crisis Earth-3 versions did), Post-Zero Hour (Crime Syndicate of Amerika), or post JLA/Avengers crossover (slightly different history for the Crime Syndicate of Amerika and anti-matter universe).--BruceGrubb (talk) 12:43, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Earth-1289

In the Comics Revue article, it says that the Absolute edition of Crisis on Infinite Earths states that the Batman comic strip stories take place on Earth-1289. Can anyone verify this and if so should this be mentioned in this article? --GentlemanGhost (talk) 08:07, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Earth-Two vs 40s Golden Age Comics published by DC.

We have the picture in 52 week 52, which resembles the 80s Earth-Two, not the forties. We have an older Jay Garrick in Countdown: Arena.

None of that resembles the 40s Golden Age (as published by DC).

Duggy 1138 (talk) 02:36, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

1. Artistic licence is something to be aware of. The same thing the Arena artist cited re the "Doctor Manhattan" that showed up.
2. Guessing about which sets of stories are part of the histories of the 52 without explicit statements from the editors and writers, the people that set the ground rules for the new multiverse, is OR.
3. Using the visuals, keeping in mind 1 above is even worse OR.

- J Greb (talk) 04:14, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Golden Age of Comics is a link to the Golden Age of comics... not the Golden Age of DC comics and as such is meaningless to Earth-Two.

Duggy 1138 (talk) 21:07, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I think Wikipedia:No original research is going to have to come to bear here. Please review the section on utilising primary source, specifically that

“

* To the extent that part of an article relies on a primary source, it should: only make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the primary source.

”

Since the two of you have differing interpretations, I think it is safe to assume they are interpretive claims and also that specialist knowledge is now coming into play. On that basis I have removed the contentious phrasing. Hiding T 21:16, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. - J Greb (talk) 21:43, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Well strictly speaking Earth-2 never was the Golden Age DC comics. For example, The Daily Planet was first used in Superman #4 (Spring 1940) with Perry White becoming editor in Superman #7 (December 1940) and Luthor went bald in Superman #10 (June 1941). Then you have the "super muscular control" power that the Golden Age Superman had up to 1948 but the Earth-2 never had. It is a nice notion but it is not supported by the facts.--BruceGrubb (talk) 12:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

That's what I was trying to say... only not as clearly.

Duggy 1138 (talk) 13:12, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps, but I went and found a reference to primary sources that showed beyond any doubt that Earth-2 is NOT the Golden Age of DC comics but a sort of as we wish it had been.--BruceGrubb (talk) 13:22, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] How many Earth S (Shazam)s are there?

I have to point out a problem with the description of Earth S (for Shazam) in the table. The Earth S that Earth One characters interacted with on various occasions is not what was seen in most issues of DC's 70s Shazam book, which itself might be the one of the old Fawcett comics. In #34 (out of 35 issues), the DC series was overhauled and depicted a more serious and realistic world than before, with the various Marvels' civilian identities being secret, which they hadn't been--Billy Batson had had a habit of saying "Shazam!" in public. This Earth was also seen in a run in World's Finest and the first two digest format issues of Adventure Comics, as well as a three-part JLA/JSA crossover in 1976, which brought together several other Fawcett heroes as the Shazam Squadron of Justice (JLA #s 133-135; this, by the way, is also where the Earth Two version of Atlantis was established as being the one from GA Wonder Woman stories, although I can't tell from the GCD indexes just which of the three issues did it; E-2's WW is listed in only the last, so that might be the one), and two Superman/Marvel team-ups, one in a tabloid and one in DC Comics Presents. I'm not sure if there are any problems with the Fawcett version and DC's first Shazam run's version of the Marvels' world. There is the fact that Earth One's Lex Luthor travelled into that early-to-mid-70s Shazam book, so there would seem to have been at least two Captain Marvel-based universes "actually" in the DC Multiverse. In any event, the description of Earth S in the table is no less than oversimplified. Ted Watson (talk) 21:23, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

IIRC, DC editorial never went to the trouble of splitting the stories up. Everything DC did with the character when it was under license was lumped into one continuity. Even when DC chucked the multiverse, none of the reference works or comments went "The stories from "X" issues were on Earth-S1, from "Y" issues Earth-S2, and so on.". For purposes of this article, and a potential Earth-S article, we don't get to parse it. If DC never addressed it, and it isn't put forward in a secondary source, then trying to split it up boils down to OR. - J Greb (talk) 22:50, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

To be clear, the Earth-Two stories were never really the Golden Age stories either. Superman quickly changed to "The Daily Planet", etc, whereas other features that defined the Earth-Two Superman didn't appear until later. So if there was a difference between the original Captain Marvel stories and Earth-S it isn't unusual or worth noting, really.

Duggy 1138 (talk) 05:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New earth IS earth one.

See tangent issue 1. --Fredrick day 12:56, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

If it says that, it's in error. DC has repeatedly and explicitly said that New Earth is not the new Earth-1. Wryspy (talk) 22:19, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, seems they have changed their minds - (obviously we will need a better source for the article) - Jamal Y. Igle one of the art team on the series has commented: he said, No I said that I didn't think it was a mistake, and I'm the penciler for the bulk of the series, Issues 2 -12 . Since I'm pencilling issue 4 right now, I've got the inside track. which was quickly followed by Ok just so that this can be cleared up, I talked to my editor. New Earth ..........Is Earth 1. --Fredrick day 22:28, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

We're not in any hurry, want to wait for anything more definitive before fools rush in where angels fear to tread?~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 00:03, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Someone want to update this table? Tangent issue 2 came out - Flash and Green Lantern are explicitly labelled as being from Earth-1 - whatever the original plans, DC has clearly changed it's mind. --87.113.67.142 (talk) 07:32, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

DC has changed their mind or someone at DC has made a mistake. Either way, unless there is an official statement, I think the initial claim remains valid. Duggy 1138 (talk) 02:04, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Maybe the familar characters come from Earth-1, rather than New Earth, which would explain why Igle says that Nacho Castro says that the story starts on Earth-1 not New Earth. Duggy 1138 (talk) 00:45, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Who said they were from Earth-1? If another character said it, the character could be wrong. Wryspy (talk) 06:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Earth-C (pre-Crisis) and Earth 26 (post 52)

The Captain Carrot and the Final Ark series indicates that this is not a new Earth, Earth-C and Earth 26 are the same Earth.--RedKnight (talk) 00:21, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

How, exactly, does it indicate this? Is it implied or stated outright? Duggy 1138 (talk) 01:55, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Can they not simply have the same exact history?~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 09:48, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Forum post purportedly by a DC artist

I removed a purported statement by Jamal Igle about part of the multiverse, because the source was unacceptable: a forum post in which someone claiming to be Igle made a comment.

In general, such comments are not in any way acceptably sourced. It's been restored. I'd appreciate if the person who restored it would reconnsider. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 13:54, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Earth-H? Earth-U?

I can't remember where I saw these. I vaguely remember Earth-H having something to do with Lex Luthor and Earth-U about something else, perhaps a nuclear holocaust. Anybody remember anything about that? 90.134.108.229 (talk) 22:32, 2 June 2008 (UTC)