Talk:List of Batman Family enemies
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[edit] Suggested additions
Furth Villains suggested for addition: Metalhead (Batman 486), Dagger 1 & 2, Zebra-Man, Zodiac Master, Frederick Rhino, Joe Rabbit, Galvan, Czonka, Cypher, Lynx, Bird, Zombie and Trogg, Mekros, Sleeper, Narcosis, Faceless, Ugly American, Chancer, Allergent, Banner, Crimesmith, Getaway Genius, Bouncer, Mr baffle, Tweedle Dee and Dum, Mortimer Kadaver, Corossive Man, Mahakala, Mirage, Deathstroke, Night-Thief, Nocturna, Doctor Fang, Snowman, Savage Skull, Obeah Man, Quiz and Query (Echo), Echo (Russiand assassin), Dragoncat, Gunhawk, Steeljacket, Cassidy, Wilis Danko, Feedback, Dynamiteer, Tumultor, Harpy, Monarch of Menaces, Shin Tzu.--134.34.13.172 14:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Death Rattle and Ventriloquist II both need to be added as well.
What about Ragdoll, who appears twice on THE BATMAN? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.41.239.78 (talk) 02:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Page Move
Uhm, why was this page moved fro List of Batman villains to List of Batman enemies? That possessive form is really grating. It replaces a vaugly POV-word with a very unprofessional descriptor. If the title needs to be made more objective, surely List of Batman adversaries or List of Batman antagonists would be better selections than this uber-personalization. ~CS 19:38, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The Count
I've noticed that Dracula isn't mentioned at all here. He was by a landslide one of Batman's most dangerous foes, and I believe he should be mentioned. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.111.244.211 (talk) 05:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Clayface
Why isn't Clayface listed among the major villians? Is there a specific criteria that qualifies on villian a major and another as minor? 66.109.248.114 21:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- Basil Karlo, the first and most frequently used Clayface, is listed in the major villains: fifth one down. The other Clayfaces are listed below. Other than Matt Hagan, who has not appeared in twenty years, the others have not been used as extensively as Karlo. ~CS 23:10, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- Does the frequency of uses as a character make that character any more or less signfiicant. How often have Joe Chill, Thomas or Martha Wayne appeared in comics, but are there influence any less significant? Preston Payne had great appearances throughout the 80's (particularly the Alan Moore piece). Listing some villians as major and other's as minor serve's to limit there character's and their roles in greater comics context, and is to a certain degree subjective. My best suggestion is either an alphabetical listiing or a continued list of those in order of appearance, both with the absence of major/minor. 66.109.248.114 21:04, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
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- I agree with this, at least to a large extent. The "major/minor" segregation is an exercise in POV judgement. Of the two listing options, alphabetic or by first appearance, I'd suggest alpha since that is the more intuitive of the two.
- I can though see splitting the "signature" villains to the lead section. This list though would be different from the current "major" to a minor degree.
- — J Greb 22:50, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
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Basil Karlo was rarely used in the late 80's early 90's period, instead they used Preston Payne, doesn't he at least get a major enemies mention, he is one of the more notable. Besides, it would probably be best to include all of the Clayfaces in the Major enemies bit. 86.142.216.62 (talk) 14:26, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Cain
The picture of David Cain is actually a picture of Lex Luthor. Does anyone have a picture of Cain or should we just not have a picture?
[edit] Criteria
What Determines if someone is a major or minor enemy?
[edit] Fair use criteria
The use of images not in compliance with our fair-use criteria or our policy on nonfree content is not appropriate, and the images have been removed. Please do not restore them. — Moe ε 21:49, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Moxon
It should be stated that he was Killed during the War Games Storyline
[edit] Qualifications for additions
All animated villians, unless they have been introduced into continuity, do not belong on the main villains list, major or minor. In addition, make sure your entry is complete, meaning issue number and date, as well as factual.
[edit] NPOV
At this point, the list of characters appearing as major and/or minor which seems to be the most regular complaint of the page. There is no reason why Prometheus, Nyssa Raatko, David Cain and the Great White Shark should be placed in the same league as Catwoman, the Joker and Penguin, particullarly in the greater context of Batman's nearly 70 year publication history. Additions are completely subjective. I suggest that either firm guidelines for major inclusion be estabished and commented in the test (i.e. featured in multiple mediums, several decades as Batman villian, and major villian in muliple arcs) or the list of enemies be combined into one master list (my preference). -66.109.248.114 00:25, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- Looking at the list structure, the last 6 "major" seem to be "And in recent stories..." That being said, 4 of them, David Cain, Hush, Raatko, and the Red Hood were the focus of either long arcs or plot elements and would fit the context of "major". The other two... and maybe Zsasz should just be moved down with a clear edit summary as to why.
- There's also the question of the non-Batman enemies on the list:
- Crazy Quilt (Robin (Grayson) foe for the first, the second AFAIK never met a member of the Bat-Family)
- Dodge (Robin (Drake))
- Film Freak (Second is a Catwoman antagonist only)
- Johnny Warlock (Robin (Drake))
- King Snake (Robin (Drake))
- Lady Vic (Nightwing)
- Lynx (Robin (Drake))
- Nite-Wing (Nightwing)
- Shrike (Nightwing)
- Torque (Nightwing)
- - J Greb (talk) 00:53, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
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- A lot of Batman protege enemies have been involved with the main kahuna. That being said, even if they haven't, Batman is an umbrella for a series of heroes and therefore their villains are his villains24.164.136.207 (talk) 01:19, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well, there's no really definitive way to include "major" and "minor" characters: they're both completely subjective, unless we can come up with an absolutive rule that makes a villain a major character, rather than a minor one. Say, major characters are featured x times, while everything else is minor. Or, perhaps, a major character is used in more than one publication/series, while minor characters are not. Octane [improve me?] 11.03.08 0504 (UTC)
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- Perhaps the DC Encyclopedia/Batman Guide could help arbitrate - weight of coverage implying "major" status? Subjective it may be, but it's patently obvious to me that there are SEVEN-NINE "major" Villains, then a dozen or so "notable" villains, and then the higher number of "Minor" ones.
- "Major"' is 'even non-comics people have heard of them'; is 'have been featured in numerous stories, including most (or 'a larger number') of the major storylines'; is 'have appeared in a number of different mediums'.
- The "Major" Villains are:
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- THE JOKER. Clearly. Romero, Nicholson, Ledger & Hamill. Oldest, most-appearing. Crippled Barbara, killed Sarah. Notable storylines solely about him, and has featured in the major storylines. Has separate volumes of "Greatest Stories," etc.
- Catwoman. Again, clearly. She'll be the second most known Bat-villain among normal people.
- Penguin. Long pedigree, integral in many storylines, the third villain in the 1980-90s film series, as well as one of the four villains in the 1966 film.
- Riddler. Likewise, long-standing, 'known' villain, a staple of the '60s TV series, and one of the top four for cross-medium appearances.
- Two-Face. #5, Tommy Lee Jones, important and notable friend-turned-villain, crucial to No Man's Land and the comics based on the TV cartoon, among others.
- Scarecrow. Overlooked because of the above five, the Scarecrow has probably been deeply involved in more major storylines than the Penguin, Riddler or Two-Face, but only turned up on film recently.
- Ivy. Perhaps debateable in such company, but Ivy is also a live action film villain, as well as an NML gang leader, and important to a number of other storylines down the years she's been about.
- Mr Freeze & Ra's. Broadly round out the list of villains who have appeared in live action Batman films, and are the least of the "Major" villains, bridging the gap between "Major" and "Notable."
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- Of the currently listed "Major" villains, the rest need to be downgraded, for the following reasons:
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- Joe Chill. Isn't "Major," just important. He's neither recurring nor a real threat to BATMAN, he's simply the bogeyman to young Bruce Wayne and the root creator of Batman. Vital to the myth, but not a major villain.
- Deadshot. Isn't a Batman villain, but a Titans villain who happens to be the antithesis of Batman. Noteworthy as a DCU character, but not a major villain.
- Strange, Clayface, Hatter, Zsasz, Croc, Black Mask, Ventriloquist, Bane & Hush. The "next tier" - while Freeze and Ra's are on the bottom of "Major," this lot are at the top of "Notable," but don't quite have the have the recurrance of the Major villains, they don't have the name recognition nor the longevity. Bane is clearly important but mostly for just one reason, Strange is important but similarly not known for much, Hush is only recently notable (and mentioned elsewhere under his 'real' name), the Hatter is also memorable but a weak villain: none of these pose a major, recurring threat, nor repeat in as many storylines as the 7/9 "Major" villains. They are important, but on a lesser level to the 7/9, while standing slightly apart from the rest of the crowd.
- Harley. Isn't really even a villain; she's a side-kick. Notable in her own right, of course (and even more so because of her origin), but certainly not a "Major" villain on a par with her Boss.
- Moth, Firefly, Prometheus and Red Hood. Another more-than-minor, but considerably-less-than-major tier of their own. The first two have neither the weight of recognition on their side, nor do they really pose a major in-story threat; the latter two are recent and therefore not recurrant enough to have much standing.
- Raatko & the Shark. Far too recent to be considered Major - and it's debatable that they'll ever make it.
- Man-Bat, Talia, Shiva & Cain. Are only really borderline-"Villains" at all - Langstrom is misunderstood and rarely considered wholly bad, while Talia skips between hero and villain as much as Catwoman (who is nevertheless a VERY important Bat-villain). As for the latter two - Wayne trained with Cain and Shiva, so they cannot be considered 'Major' Enemies any more than Azrael should be featured heavily.
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- I therefore advocate a seven/nine-strong MAJOR VILLAIN list based on longevity, appearances and wider-recognisability with a 'normal' audience. NOTABLE would then be the next gradation down for less-frequent-appearances of nonetheless known and important Bat-villains (including Chill, Strange-Hush, Moth-Hood and Man-Bat-Cain and maybe Harley Quinn). Then Deadshot, Raatko and the Shark should really (in my opinion) be shifted down to "Minor" for at least the time being, while ANARKY and RATCATCHER moving up to "Notable" alongside the CLAYFACES.
- Tweedledee and Tweedledum are inexplicably missing.
- And to reiterate an old question - why is this "ENEMIES" rather than "Villains"...? ntnon (talk) 07:06, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
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[edit] Arnold Stromwell
Since Arnie apparently has his own article now, should he have an entry in the Mobster section? Czar Baldy Bald IV (talk) 00:20, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Baby Doll's Helper
You all remember her from BTAS, right? I forget what the woman's name was, but I believe she has brunette hair with glasses and wore a business-type outfit. She was there to help Baby Doll in the first one.
I just remember laughing alot because of her lines. Like, Baby Doll would yell, "Cynthiaaaa!" or something and this chick would just come in kicking. And I remember when Robin asked her something like, "Why are you working with her (Baby Doll?" The woman responded something like, "Eh, it's a living" and then proceeded to beat the mess out of Robin.
For those of you with the DVDs, you will probably be able to easily found out who I am talking about.
I'm not saying this person should be a major villain, but for goodness sakes Punch and Judy are listed along with the atrocity that is "The Batman." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chaunceyishere1987 (talk • contribs) 02:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Deceased?
I would suggest that it is of some import to include a little mention - (Currently deceased<ref>Killed by XXXXX in ''Detective Comics'' #XXX</ref>) - of who is "dead," for the sake of reference. ntnon (talk) 04:03, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Probably not. Wikipedia articles generally use literary present tense, for one thing. For another, the nature of comic books is that characters rather often do not stay dead, and so such information would just be listing "current events" which we should probably avoid in this list. See also: List of dead comic book characters. - jc37 04:08, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, I wondered about the transient nature of death in comics, but at the same time I would suggest that most (if not all) those here who are presently deceased are minor enough that they are unlikely to be resurrected. Moreover, I'm not sure how "current event"y it would be, since it would arguably be the next evolutionary step(!) in a character's "development"...
- (Not to mention that - at least - the first Blockbuster and Matt "Clayface" Hagen are listed here as dead. ;o)) ntnon (talk) 17:26, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
- Well, there's also the problem of the recent "crises" (or the amazing Neron resurrections) arbitrarily bringing previously dead characters back who were thought to have died (some without any explanation).
- I left Matt on there as (until very recently) most CoIE deaths were mostly "premanent", and his death figured into the various subsequent storylines of the Clayfaces. I suppose the same could be said about Blockbuster, but honestly, that was actually an oversight on my part : ) - jc37 20:44, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Peyton Reilly
Someone needs to add her under the Ventriloquist and split the box. I would but i do not know how 24.164.136.207 (talk) 12:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Black Glove
Someone needs to add the black glove and simon hurt —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.164.136.207 (talk) 23:22, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
