Talk:List of Avengers members/Archive1

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[edit] Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell)

I have not read Avengers vol. 1 #86 (March 1971), but I was wondering what is meant by "by affiliation only" in reference to his membership.--RedKnight 19:34, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
He was never trully an Avengers member just an ally but given honorary membership after death. Spshu 18:42, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 18:57, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Membership lists

Here are some list to refer to in discussions--

Avengers Vol 1 Annual 15 1986

West: Hawkeye (chair), Mockingbird, Iron Man, Tigra, Wonderman Staff member & former East member: Henry Pym

East: Wasp, Captain America, Black Knight, Hercules, Captain Marvel

West Coast Avengers Annual 1 1986 (completes the story started in Avengers Annual 15 & to figure out who betrayed them.)

• Thing -- page 2 panel 6: Hawkeyes stated: "It can't be the Thing because even though he agree to join us, he never did.."* West Coast Avengers 10
• Firebird -- page 3 panel 1: Hawkeyes stated: "We hung out with a lady named Firebird recently, but she, uh, never even got asked to join!"* West Coast Avengers 4-9
• Moondragon -- page 3 panel 2: Hawkeye stated: "Moondragon -- Well, Moondragon never joined and now she's dead"* Defenders 152
• Hellcat -- page 3 panel 3: Hawkeye stated: "Hellcat never joined! She took up with the Defenders, and then retired to marry Daimon Hellstrom -- after he got up from under being the Son of Satan!"* Defenders 125
• Ms. Marvel -- page 3 panel 4: Hawkeye stated: "So then we get to the actual members--!" "The old Ms. Marvel changed her name to Binary and split for deep space!"* X-Men 174
• Starfox -- page 3 panel 5: Wasp stated: "We left Starfox out there too -- in the Andromeda Galaxy!"* Avengers 261
• Hulk -- page 3 panel 6: Wasp stated: "The Hulk is in no position to rat on anybody--"* Hulk 324
• Sub-Mariner -- page 3 panel 7: Wasp stated: "-- and our most recent recruit, the Sub-Mariner, has left our ranks on a personal quest --"
• Mantis -- page 3 panel 8: Wasp stated: "Mantis became the Celestial Madonna, * and I can't picture anybody that cosmic working though Agent Gyrich!"* Giant Size Avengers 4
• Jocasta -- page 3 panel 9: Wasp stated: "Jocasta was built by Ultron-8, but she was never evil -- "-- never actually joined us --" "--and sacrificed herself in the end --" * Marvel Two-in-One 93
• Swordsman -- Wasp stated: ""-- as did the Swordsman, when he saved Mantis's life!" * Giant-sized Avengers 2

Page 4 Hawkeye: "So that leaves... Thor, Vision, scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, She-Hulk ..." Tigra: "...Black Panther..." Mockingbird: "... Black Widow, the alternate Iron Man..." Hawkeye: "Beast... and the Falcon! is that everybody? A nice short list -- but we've got to contact them all!"

Solo Avengers 1

Mark's Remarks select as primary feature star: Hawkeye

• Those members (past & present) with solo comics: Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, Hulk
• East Coast: Captain Marvel, the Black Knight, She-Hulk, the Sub-Mariner, Doctor Druid
• West Coast: Mockingbird, Wonder Man, Tigra, Moon Knight, Doctor Pym
• inactives & reserves: Wasp Hercules, the Black Widow, the Black Panther, the Falcon, Moondragon, Binary (original Ms. Marvel), Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, the Vision, Hellcat, Starfox, the Beast, Mantis

"If I really wanted to stretch it (with reader approval, of course!), we could also feature the Thing and Espirita (Firebird), honorary members Stingray and Rick Jones, and friends of the Avengers, Ant-Man and Paladin."

Solo Avengers 15 (Feb. 1989)

Mark's Remarks "Just to remind you who's eligible, here's a list: 1. Wasp 2. Quicksilver 3. Scarlet Witch 4. Hercules 5. Black Panther 6. The Vision 7. Black Knight 8. Black Widow 9. Mantis 10. Moon Dragon 11. Hellcat 12. Falcon 13. Wonder Man 14. Tigra 15. Captain Marvel (II) 16. Star Fox 17. Mockingbird 18. Sub-Mariner 19. Doctor Pym 20. Firebird 21. Doctor Druid 22. Yellowjacket 23. Mister Fantastic 24. Invisible Woman 25. Forgotten One” Hawkeye Those members (past & present) with solo comics: Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, Hulk, She-Hulk, Moon Knight

It was point out why the Beast was left out in Solo Avengers issue 20 (July 1989): "We omitted the ol'd Beastie boy since we figure he's perceived more as an X-Factor character these days."

Solo Avengers 26 (December 1989)

The Winners of the 1989 Favorite Avengers Poll! Favorite Avengers who is currently in his/her own magazine:

1. . Captain America: 521 votes
2. . Iron Man: 279 votes
3. . She-Hulk: 258 votes
4. . Thor: 222 votes
5. . Hawkeye: 178 votes
6. . Moon Knight: 110 votes
7. . Hulk: 86 votes
8. . Quasar: 26 votes

Favorite Avengers who does not have his/her own magazine:

1. . Wonder Man: 217 votes
2. . Black Knight: 208 votes
3. . Black Panther: 137 votes
4. . Vision: 112 votes
5. . Beast: 93 votes
6. . Doctor Pym 91 votes
7. . Hercules: 67 votes
8. . Scarlet Witch: 65 votes
9. . Captain Marvel II: 60 votes
10. . Mockingbird: 58 votes
11. . Sub-Mariner: 56 votes
12. . Wasp: 53 votes
13. . Starfox: 42 votes
14. . Tigra: 41 votes
15. . Falcon: 38 votes
16. . Black Widow: 36 votes
17. . Gilgamesh: 32 votes
18. . Quicksilver: 29 votes
19. . USAgent: 28 votes
20. . Moondragon, Ms. Marvel/Binary, Yellowjacket, Thing: 16 votes each
21. . Hellcat: 12 votes
22. . Mr. Fantastic, Firebird/Espirita 8 votes each
23. . Jocasta, Dr. Druid: 7 votes each
24. . Mantis: 5 votes
25. . Swordsman: 5 votes
26. . Mr. Immortal: 4 votes
27. . Invisible Woman 2 votes

Spshu (talk) 20:43, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Almost all of the above happened before the volume referenced by Brevoort above. In-universe commentary, which all of that is, does not necessarily "trump" secondary sources, which the cited Sourcebook is. I grant I have yet to access that work, but, if it does say (as I am all but certain it does) what it is said to say, then the previous discussions "in-universe" do not necessarily matter. It could well be the case that the writers intended to have a character join "off-camera". Should that have happened, then statements put in the mouths of characters by writers are not more important than statements of the writers or other real people. John Carter (talk) 20:59, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

There are multiple lists here. The first list is in-universe commentary the other are comments by editors of Solo Avengers/ Avengers Spotlight. Mark's Remarks was Mark Gruenwald's column that was on the pages of the title that he edited then move to Marvel Age. This is not in-universe commentary but an editor refering to those possible choice to be the lead in the book. The last list is not a Mark's remarks but tabulation of voting of the readers of the Avengers titles. So I am not sure what just in general presenting these list for reference in discussion that your comment have to do with. If you have a general comment about the verifiability or in general error with the list then comment here. This was set a side so it easier to reference yet have the list quoted and not brake up the discussion with a long quoted list. When I start a new section it is for a good reason not to carry down discussion from other sections.

One of the problems with the Solo Avengers 15 (Feb. 1989) Mark's Remarks list is that includes a then villian Yellowjacket; this carries down to the Solo Avengers 26 (December 1989) list. Spshu (talk) 21:37, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Thing is listed with "Solo Avengers 26's Winners of the 1989 Favorite Avengers Poll! results" so is Yellowjacket, who was force to aid a reserve/inactive team against the High Evolutionary. Spshu (talk) 21:56, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, Grunewald died in 1996, four years before the source indicated above. I would tend to think that the more recent source would take priority, as it was written by, among others, the individual who is now in charge of the series. And any comments about starting a new thread for a "new discussion" about basically the same matters in the previous threads are somewhat questionable. Grunewald was editor from basically 1982 through 1989. If I remember correctly, the Marvel universe has been destroyed and re-created a few times since then, with possibly unobserved changes. On that basis, and as per WP:VERIFIABILITY, which prefers third-party sources over either primary sources or secondary sources, I would think that the sources you are citing would all fall within the range of "primary" sources, while the source from Brevoort would probably qualify as "secondary", given it was an entirely separate publication, not contained in the publication itself. Also, we do not necessarily have a clear statement from Grunewald that the individuals named were all necessarily officially recognized members, and it would probably be OR to assume otherwise. And it should be noted that Beast, who actually is an official member, was pointedly not included in at least one of the lists, which makes the true reliability of those lists very questionable. On the basis of those points, I would still believe the more current source, which was published separately, would take be counted as beinbg more reliable, as it did not try to exclude any names for reasons not relevant to the list itself, and also would seem to be more indicative of the existing thought of Marvel Comics, which I think we would all acknowledge is the final judge of these matters. I would, however, welcome any input from any other parties, including J Greb again, should he return. John Carter (talk) 22:11, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

The last source above is 1989 with nothing after that. If you want to bring in the Marvel Universe being destroyed & re-created then nothing is verifiable. I believe the previous discussion re:D-Man started draging in the Thing and others and that spilled over into another section. Hence, this section and the above Thing section refering to this section. In journalism and history, a secondary source closer to the events is consider generally more realible and a primary source even more so. Spshu (talk) 14:17, 20 March 2008 (UTC)