Talk:LGBT rights in Jamaica
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The article is not neutral or objective. Many of the references presented are from LBGT websites. I think it needs to be reviewed. One example is a paragraph relating to the April 2006 attack on the "gay student" at the University of the West Indies. I have very close connections to the event and in all fairness to the University in neither the police report or the Local press was there mention of the perpetrator being a University Student.
- Fix the text, don't add editorial comments to the text. Not that it makes any difference whether he was a student or not - the fact that he was threatened by a mob of university students is telling about the level of bigotry in the society. Guettarda 17:37, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
My apologies for the note in the text. However the assumption that the mob was there because the man was a homosexual is jumping to an unjustified conclusion. Jamaica has a hisotry of "mob justice" in which criminals that are discovered are attacked by members of the community, being seriously injured or killed. One recent incident occured on the campus of another University(University of Technology Jamaica) which is next to the University of the West Indies in which a group of men were attempting to steal a car and were discovered. The men were chased and one fell into an open pit. The mob prevented the man from leaving the pit and he subsequently drowned. Therefore chances are that the mob reaction would have been the same regardless of the man's sexual orientation. The fact is that Campus security had removed the man from Campus before for the same reason and it did not incite that reaction. As a result I believe that the story has been simply twisted to unnecessarily paint the country in a negative light and should be removed from the article. In general I feel the article lacks good sources as I have not been able to verify some of the examples in the local press or find them in any sources other than Gay associated press or opinion articles.Bertitude 09:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Not NPOV
It should be obvious to all neutral readers that this article is heavily pro-homosexuality and pro-sodomy. Bearing in mind that such viewpoints are far from accepted or factual this makes the entire article strongly biased.
As it should be. Christianity is shit, and has ruined millions of innocent lives. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.47.23.211 (talk) 04:02, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Further: This entire article is written from the following viewpoints:-
- There is a right to homosexuality (there is no such right under the law of Jamaica) - Discrimination against homosexual persons is wrong 60.48.254.122 05:00, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree that it's not NPOV and have removed some of the more biased statements. I also reworded some so they reflect a detached NPOV stance. I have removed content about singers and music as the lyrics of songs are not relevant to the title of this article. Remember this article is about LGBT rights in Jamaica - not about any lack of rights they may have. 60.50.98.198 05:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] 365 gay
Now lets get something straight here. They claim that police do not protect gay people and that polcie passively encourage violence towards gays, but they also claim in the paragraph before that a gay man was protected by riot police from a vicious mob.
So the police don't care about gays yet they send an entire squad of riot police to protect one gay man. I would question whether a straight man would ever get such protection from a mob in Jamaica.
I deleted the accusations because 365 gay is talking out of two sides of their mouth,there probably is some kind of mistreatment of gays in Jamaica, but I suggest that no more refernces be taken from that site because they are not credible. As such I will be deleting all material based on 365 gay.com 'evidence'
One last thing, why does the article seem to suggest Buju Banton is guilty of crimes that the court found him innocent of.
[edit] It's NPOV alright
The article makes statements that support the argument that discrimination against gay people exists in Jamaica. This is NPOV, just as an article making statements that support the argument that racial discrimination existed under apartheid in South Africa would be NPOV, if the structure of the argument was valid and all the supporting statements were verifiable. There is no 'pro-gay' point of view here, any more than an article describing apartheid could be called 'pro-black'. The mere act of decribing bigotry is not taking a side on an issue. If you want to call this article not NPOV, then provide evidence that the supporting statements are not true. Wandering Star 03:44, 22 June 2006 (UTC) Let's face it; many of the country's most popular songs celebrate and encourage murdering gay people.
[edit] Stick to the title
I have had to remove this section as it is certainly not NPOV and it is not on the topic of "LGBT rights in Jamaica". Please ensure that this article is focused upon rights and not discrimination or harassment. Please remember that Wikipedia cannot condone illegal acts, and that is what buggary remains in Jamaica. Suggesting that the law be changed or that the law is inadequate is pure politics and not encyclopedic.
- Lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender Jamaicans face a high degree of societal opposition, violence, and legal sanctions. According to a survey on sexual orientation and human rights in the Americas published in December 2003, "In the Caribbean, Jamaica is by far the most dangerous place for sexual minorities, with frequent and often fatal attacks against gay men fostered by a popular culture that idolizes reggae and dancehall singers whose lyrics call for burning and killing gay men. Draconian laws against sexual activity between members of the same sex continue to be in force not only in Jamaica, but in most of the English-speaking Caribbean."[1] According to Amnesty International, “the gay and lesbian community in Jamaica face extreme prejudice,” and “gay people in Jamaica, or those suspected of being gay, are routinely victims of ill-treatment and harassment by the police, and occasionally of torture.”[2]
--218.111.25.78 06:50, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
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- Those who have surveyed and assessed the situation for LGBT people in the region such as the World Policy Institute are the authorities for an article like this. Their study used a wide range of sources. Please do not remove them because you don't agree with them. This paragraph is neither suggesting the law be changed or condoning illegal acts. It is simply reporting what notable authorities have said on the topic, and providing sources for readers who wish to verify these claims. This is standard wikipedia practice.
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- As for the title "LGBT rights", I agree that it's not perfect. However, this is part of a series of articles with similar titles that are very much about both laws and public sentiment, and "discrimination and harassment" are in fact well within the scope of an article about LGBT rights. ntennis 07:55, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
If it does not match the title, either the title must change, or the content must change. This is an encyclopedia and a reference text, not anyone's personal platform. How does the suggestion of splitting the article into two, one dealing with actual rights, and one dealing with harassment and discrimination sound?218.111.25.78 09:18, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] NOT NPOV (2)
As previously discussed this article is not NPOV. Further, ntennis, has removed most of the changes which were made to make it more NPOV. Rights are things you have, not things you do not have. As such unless you change the title to 'LGBT rights not in Jamaica' all reference to any rights which are absent must be removed. This is an encylopedia and not somewhere for you to make a political point. 60.48.32.147 09:02, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- I'll leave the tag there and make some changes to the lead section. The statements of human rights groups is relevant. i'll move them to their own section rather than in the lead. ntennis 16:17, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Are you claiming that people have never been deprived of rights? What then happened during slavery? Or apartheid? Are youb saying the Nazis didn't deprive anyone of rights? Yes, rights are things a person may have taken away from them. Therefore, the title is accurate, and NPOV. Wandering Star 17:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] It Certainly is Objective
The title LGBT Rights in Jamaica can refer to both rights and the lack thereof. As for the police stnace on gays in Jamaica I would expect there to be occasional exceptions to the general rule. We must also remember that it was a mob a of college students who attacked the gay man, while college students tend to take the most liberal approaches to human rights in their respective countries.
Additionally the article cites more than just LGBT new sources. It also cites reports by Amnesty International as well as an article by TIME magazine. As for the point about mobs' murdering criminals, a few decades ago it was not uncommon in the United States for mobs to murder criminals, at the same time it was not uncommon for mobs to attack and kill people of African descent; does this mean that it was not racist for a mob to target people of African descent?
