Talk:Las Meninas

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Contents 1 Archive 2 Query 3 Arts & crafts 4 Velazquez' right...or left 5 Congratulations 6 Edit counter 7 Congrats; on the image in the curved mirror 8 work in progress 9 Birthday

[edit] Archive

Talk page is getting rather long. Material prior to "Key by numbers" seems to be resolved. Can it be archived, or, if not, what talk is now archivable? Tyrenius (talk) 18:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll also delete the two redundant "number key" images, unless anyone has a reason to retain them. Tyrenius (talk) 18:10, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

The first 2 images aren't needed, but I think the rest of the talk should stay until the FA process is over. Not all the points may be resolved. Johnbod (talk) 18:13, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Done it. Moved the sections that I thought were resolved. Samuel Sol (talk) 13:46, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Query

"the achondroplastic German Maribarbola (4),[25] and the Italian Nicolas Pertusato (5)" Is German a first name, or a descriptive, applied to someone with just one name? I suspect the latter, but it reads like the former. Either way it's unclear. Also, I presume only the former is being described as achondroplastic... not sure this detail, missing from the latter, is useful. Could be dropped altogether or put into reference 25. --Dweller (talk) 19:39, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I've added commas:

the achondroplastic German, Maribarbola (4),^[1] and the Italian, Nicolas Pertusato (5),

I think this clarifies it. Tyrenius (talk) 20:02, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, she was German. Johnbod (talk) 20:04, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Cool. --Dweller (talk) 20:31, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arts & crafts

After at least one rewording, we have now ended up with: " In seventeenth-century Spain, painters rarely enjoyed high social status. The art of painting was regarded as a craft, inferior to the higher arts such as poetry or music. ref name=”Dambe” Dambe, Sira. “Enslaved sovereign: aesthetics of power in Foucault, Velazquez and Ovid”. Journal of Literary Studies, December, 2006.</ref "

I suspect this is overstating matters rather, but don't have the reference. The Spanish monarchs had been about the most consistently appreciative of painting in Europe for over a century, & the careers of El Greco, Jusepe de Ribera & V himself suggest the grandees and the church often also had sophisticated tastes. El Greco lived in notably grand style & Ribera was able to marry his daughter to a fairly elevated noble. Philip II treated a number of artists lavishly, though the Italians rather better than the Spanish natives. But I think there were distinctions between minor and major arts etc. Apart from these & Zurbaran, there weren't many Spanish painters who deserved "high social status" frankly. Johnbod (talk) 03:34, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

This article is available online. The key paragraph appears to be

Critical scholarship has found it particularly useful to consider the intention of Las Meninas in the light of the thinking that informed Velazquez's time and location. In Golden Age Spain, the art of painting, still relegated to the rank of craft, had not yet been accorded equal status with the higher arts, such as music or poetry, a situation that provoked much debate in contemporary intellectual circles. Jonathan Brown, for instance, argues that Las Meninas was intended to function as a strong statement by the artist precisely on this issue. (6) The painting's brilliant handling of techniques, composition and concept was designed to convey incontrovertible proof of the nobility of this art. In a series of observations aimed at offering an alternative reading to what he regards as Foucault's ill-judged interpretation, Brown remarks that, in the context of Velazquez's epoch and personal situation as court painter, it is unthinkable that he might have considered placing a hypothetical spectator in the space designated for the king.

While this is a literary journal, the reference is to Brown, author of e.g. "On the Meaning of Las Meninas. In: Images and Ideas in Seventeenth-Century Spanish Painting." Strictly speaking I suppose it says nothing about painters' social status; how about removing the "high social status" part and making it one sentence? Ear Mite (talk) 04:39, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes - in fact painters got much more from the court than writers. I just feel that to describe painting as viewed as a "craft" is at best an over-simplification. In tax terms, I believe that, after a row, painters won exemption from a tax paid on the products of artisans, and I've also read that Velazquez was unable to charge anyone for paintings for reasons of social status or his court position. The battle to have painting included among the liberal arts as opposed to the manual or mechanical ones, had been won in Italy well over a century before, and I wonder if Spain was really that far behind. Johnbod (talk) 18:43, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Velazquez' right...or left

To be filed under the heading of We've all been looking at this painting too long: among the minor alterations in the painting described by Lopez-Rey was that V. had sketched himself at first with his head bent to his right rather than to his left as he appears in the painting. Of course, if V. was working from a mirror, as do most artists when painting a self-portrait, these directions would be reversed. I am happy to let the published scholarship take precedent over my observation--I'm beginning to see the dwarf Maribarbola in my dreams. JNW (talk) 00:43, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

It's the old stage-right or your-right issue; at least it's not a print, or there would be another layer of reversal.... Personally i think we may be neglecting the dog, but .... let sleeping dogs lie, I suppose. 00:52, 31 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnbod (talk • contribs)

Sleeping, indeed. Although the literature describes it as a mastiff, I'm thinking more along the lines of a steroid-enhanced chihuahua. Merely trying to find humor in the canine realm--today I was bitten by one while walking near home! JNW (talk) 00:59, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Commiserations - probably just as well it was not a Spanish mastiff (where the piped link goes), though the one in the photo there looks pretty sleepy too. Johnbod (talk) 01:07, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Congratulations

Congratulations to all the editors on FA status for this article; well done! - PKM (talk) 19:03, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd just come here to say the same thing! Tyrenius (talk) 00:12, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Featured article par excellence! Modernist (talk) 12:53, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not an art aficionado, but this article drew me in - wonderful choice to feature. One thing - I can sort of see the reason for repeating the line, but the repetition at the end of Composition threw me.Aldan19018 (talk) 02:49, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Edit counter

Click here. Unfortunately February doesn't work as yet. Tyrenius (talk) 02:06, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Congrats; on the image in the curved mirror

Whereas the reflection in the Flemish painting recomposed objects and characters within a space that is condensed and deformed by the curve of the mirror, that of Velázquez refuses to play with the laws of perspective: it projects onto the canvas the perfect double of the king and queen positioned in front of the painting.--From Lucien Dällenbach (1977). Le récit spéculaire

• I now this is a direct quotation, but seems too me is in too much (typical) French-style writing, and is translated to boot. I've studied this painting, particularly it's perspectival issues, and I'm not quite sure what he's saying, and I don't want to edit the passage on a hunch. Since it's a block ref--and it truly is a convoluted thought--could anyone put in a sentence afterwards that essentially means "what he's saying is..."

• I attended a conference at the Grad School of the City University of New York, devoted entirely to perspective in the arts. Someone there, a specialist in optical theory from some university, doped out that the image on the curved mirror, at that distance--which could be roughly ascertained based on the vanishing range of Velazquez himself and the man at the half-open door--is impossible. I believe the basis of his argument was not the reflection produced by the curvature of the mirror, but that there simply would not be enough light. I hope the hell I can find any of the printed notes from the conference, of even remember the guy's name.

This is an important point given the stress paid to the curvature of the mirror as a symbol. I believe it is overstated (those mirrors were fairly common), but this is for another discussion. --Best, Shlishke (talk) 21:55, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Personally (& see Aldan comment 2 up) I think I would be happy if all the quote up to and including "Moreover" were cut. Johnbod (talk) 02:59, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] work in progress

What do you think? Use your cursoe to investigate the picture Victuallers (talk) 12:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Nice- I think we should keep the numbered one too, but presumably this could be the lead pic? Points: 2 ffs in mastiff, D for dona (imho anyway). Johnbod (talk) 13:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

thx:2 ffs - true. However the lower case d is from the article I think Victuallers (talk) 13:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

fair enough, all should go upper-case I think though. Johnbod (talk) 13:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I made the changes and tried to put it in the infobox... it didnt want to go. Any ideas? Rollback is OK Victuallers (talk) 17:32, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd say zap the infbox, but I'm very trigger-happy where they are concerned. Better see what others think. Johnbod (talk) 17:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Nice work, Victuallers! "Chaperone" was spelt with and without a final "e" in the article. I have made it uniform, with an "e". Your text under the image has that "e"; let's make sure we maintain consistency. Both spellings appear to be recognised everywhere.

– Noetica^♬♩ Talk 22:56, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Its brilliant! Thank you Victuallers. Ceoil (talk) 14:52, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Birthday

On June 6, 2008, Google used a variation of Las Meninas as its logo to honor Velázquez's birthday.