Talk:Largest European cities and metropolitan areas

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Contents 1 Novossibirsk 2 New Data (Barcelona) 3 Actual dates 4 New title 5 Rotterdam-The Hague 5.1 Randstad 6 Dublin 7 Brussels 8 Brussels (only with its immediate surroundings) added... 9 UK figures 10 Oresund Region 11 Kassel 12 Various Lists on Wikipedia 13 Copenhagen figures 14 Milan figures 15 References 16 Oslo 17 Nottingham 18 Manchester 19 warsaw 20 Stockholm 21 Zagreb 22 Aarhus triangle 23 Ankara and İzmir 24 Polarons behaviour 25 Milan

[edit] Novossibirsk

It appears that this city is missing and it has more than 1 million people in the city proper —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.212.239.31 (talk) 23:22, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Data (Barcelona)

Barcelona's Metropolitan Area is 5.150.000 (updated 2006) in 3.925 km2 (1.515 ml2), as it is observed in... http://bcnip.blogsome.com/la-region-metropolitana-de-Barcelona (data 2005)

[edit] Actual dates

Census 2003, Spain

• Madrid, 5.603.285 (3.092.759)
• Barcelona, 4.667.136 (1.582.738)
• Valencia, 1.465.423 (780.653)
• Sevilla, 1.294.081 (709.975)
• Malaga, 1.019.292 (547.105)

I updated Vienna to match the data given at the Vienna Wikipedia entry: 2,165,357 metro area. --Juxi 07:59, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

looks like it was undone, I just wanted to add a little consistancy to it ... --Juxi 14:15, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Most of the figures here are unsourced except for a handful. We're trying to get official sources for each one and the easiest way would be for editors who want to update their numbers to cite an official source. The figure in the Vienna article is unsourced and Wikipedia is not a suitable primary source for statistics. --Polaron | Talk 14:17, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New title

I changed the title of the article to better reflect that the article deals with metropolitan areas. Hardouin 11:38, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rotterdam-The Hague

Why is Rotterdam listed individually from The Hague on this page and combined with the Hague on Largest urban areas of the European Union?. Maartenvdbent 23:42, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Randstad

For this page I even prefer the use of the term Randstad which is at least a metropolitan area. Randstad is considered to be an agglomeration (on wikipedia). The article Agglomeration states that "A metropolitan area is an extended agglomeration or conurbation that also includes peripheral areas not themselves necessarily urban in character but closely bound to the urban area by employment or commerce." Maartenvdbent 23:52, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Randstad is one agglomeration. Migdejong 22:40, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dublin

why is Greater Dublin 1.5million last? im changing it to where it belongs

[edit] Brussels

In Belgium we don't talk about the metroplitan area Brussels but rather of "De Vlaamse Ruit" (The Flemish Square) It is a square with as bounderies the cities of Brussels, Ghent, Antwerp and Leuven (5,3 million inhabitants). It is a smaller version of the Randstad in the Netherlands and I think it should be inserted instead of Brussels alone.

• This is not right. First of all it's not true that people talk about "De Vlaamse Ruit". It's just a term used in Flanders and mainly by the Flemish governement. They would like to see this region to become a multi-centered metropolitan area. And even a vast major of the Flemish people probably have never heard of this term. --Eigenwijze mustang 11:53, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Some funny guy wrote: "In Belgium we don't talk about the metroplitan area Brussels but rather of "De Vlaamse Ruit" (The Flemish Square)"

This is one complete brand of nonsense I have ever heard. The funny guy is obviously taking maximmum advantage of the fact that the wider world (outside Belgium) doesn't know much and is largly ignorant about little Belgium and its internal divisions and rivalries. Anyone can add Brussels to any of the surrounding Belgian townes and cities, to the north: Antwerp, Ghent, Leuven; and to the south: Mons, La Louviere, Charleroi...etc, because Brussels is precicely in the middle of the Country. The user "Eigenwijze mustang" is absolutely right, even in Belgium has hardly anyone ever heard of "Flemish Ruit". On the contrary "Randstad" is a long-ago internationally-recognized urban area of the Netherlands.

[edit] Brussels (only with its immediate surroundings) added...

Rightfully not including other Belgian cities like Antwerp, Charleroi... etc which are all found at a respectable and "recognizably-rural-spaced" distance from Brussels. Either include all of the surrounding cities in the north AND south or don't add any of those: THAT's what neutrality means.

[edit] UK figures

Where are the UK figures drawn from? Most of them are completely different from the Office for National Statistics figures, and appear to have varying scopes. For example, Warrington is counted under the figure for Manchester, when it's roughly equadistant between Liverpool and Manchester. Almost any definition that puts Warrington as part of the same metropolitan area as Manchester must also include the entire Merseyside conurbation in one large metropolitan area.

Additionally, most of the figures are named after cities within the area, not the official names of the areas - for example Manchester should be Greater Manchester, Birmingham should be West Midlands and Newcastle upon Tyne should be Tyneside. This contrasts with data from other european countries, such as Rhine-Ruhr, Randstad, Greater Frankfurt, and Upper Silesia. Steven J 18:56, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oresund Region

do you think the oresunds region should be on this list? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.176.204.106 (talk • contribs)

In my opinion: No. The Oresund Region covers a much larger area than Metropolitan Copenhagen and Metropolitan Malmö combined, and even considering these two metropolitan areas as a single one is a bit stretching it due to the relatively poor connectivity between them making them not quite act as a single metropolitan area. -- TimSE 16:22, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

The Oresund Region can be questioned as a metropolregion, but Malmø and Kopenhagen are by definition a combined metropol, though to my knowledge no numbers exist. The connectivity between the cities is quite good, which you would now if you lived here. --Rasmus81 12:51, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kassel

Where do the figures for the Kassel Metropolitan Area come from? Kassel is a quite small town in a rural region. A figure I found at [1] shows a quite similar number for the population of the Regierungsbezirk Kassel. However this is not a metropolitan area. It is an administrative unit. --80.145.109.26 00:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Various Lists on Wikipedia

Could someone please consolidate this list, Largest cities of the European Union by population within city limits and Largest urban areas of the European Union? If that's not possible, could one list please be deleted?

They are meant to show different things. The population of a Legal City, an Urban Area, or a Metro Area, respectively. Kevlar67 00:39, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copenhagen figures

The Copenhagen figures are not correct - are there any official sources - according to Danmarks Statistik, Metropolitan Copenhagen has more than 2 million inhabitants.

I presume that Eurostat has been used as the source for this because its statistics use the same criteria for each metropolitan area listed. Hence why statistics from national and other statistics bodies aren't used. Hope this helps. Matthew 23:09, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Milan figures

According to this study by OSCE, Milan has 7,400,000 inhabitants in its metropolitan area. The label, which carries figures just for the urban area, should be updated. --89.97.35.70 13:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

The Eurostat references are largely meaningless unless somebody somewhere describes how to recreate the figures being quoted. Following any of the Eurostat references takes a user to a 'Data navigation tree' from where I'm sure the figures can be reperformed, but the interface is far from intuitive. Can someone insert a 'how to' so that these references become more meaningful? At present they're about as accurate as saying, for instance, that the story's somewhere on one of the internet's news sites, but you have to find out which one and where yourself. Matthew 14:08, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

It's pretty easy to access the data, follow me: click at "Indicators for larger urban zones", new window will open. Than click at "TIME" button in new window and set time period (1999_2003), Urban audit indicator button is preset at Total resident population, so you can leave it. Then click at "CITIES" button and choose the cities for which you want to access the data. Then click at "NEXT" button, click at "OK" at Java script alert-box and then DOWNLOAD "button", you will get data soon. Yesterday I did few updates and add few sources but I was reverted by R9tgokunks, I suppose there was no relevant reason to do so, so I'll revert it back soon.--85.207.40.58 19:34, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for that - I'm going to dump it into the article proper because it's useful for people to be able to reperform this sort of thing! Matthew 21:59, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oslo

What happened to Oslo? Doubled its population in two years? This numbers can't be correct.

Oslo's far from unique in this (see also Zurich and a number of other cities). No idea what's causing it, but the page as a whole suffers from having different sources and definitions of what a metropolitan area is, as it means that apples are being compared with oranges. Matthew 21:44, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nottingham

Greater Nottingham has a population of 1.2 million? The Greater Nottingham article has the population down as half that. It looks very suspicious to me, is there any evidence for it? Joe D (t) 10:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

This is the edit in which it was added to the list. Joe D (t) 10:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The Nottingham Urban Area article is about the urban area, which is always smaller than the metro area. A doubling does seem rather unlikely, though. john k 22:02, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Manchester

I think the data for Greater Manchester is false, other pages don't seem to back the figure up, and that's certainly larger than any figure I've ever seen. Mysticed 15:36, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Why is Liverpool included in the Manchester figures? They are two completely different cities, some distance apart, and not even in the same county, or whatever political division passes for them nowadays. – Tivedshambo (talk) 08:54, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

yes exactly what he said. and all this gets very confusing you have metropolitan, urban, city and all this different lists for population and its not made clear —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.155.160 (talk) 14:09, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

It's even more outrageously overstated than the National Statistics Urban Area figure, which at least attempts to have a rational methodology. These figures appear to have been pulled out of a hat to suit certain municipalities' egos. 82.36.26.70 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 22:25, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] warsaw

checked on warsaw page that metropolitan area consists of 3,050,000 inhabitants. please correct that.

[edit] Stockholm

Stockholms Metropolitan area has a population of over 1,9 million. Since all kommuner in Stockholms Län now is part of Stockholm Metro area. 83.250.237.187 11:06, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Zagreb

Polaron, your arguments against including Zagreb are unfounded. Even Wikipedia defines "metropolitan area" as a large population centre consisting of a large metropolis and its adjacent zone of influence. Zagreb is much larger than many of the core cities listed here and it has several satellite cities connected to it through urban sprawl which is another definition of a "metropolitan area". Now tell me, really, is there an established, international standard for defining metropolitan areas other than that which I have already quoted? No? Well then this list is meaningless isn't it, it's completly OR, and should be deleted altogether. I'm reverting your changes. --Dr.Gonzo 16:52, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia can only use published sources. While you may be correct, what you are doing is still synthesis. If you believe the list is original research, then list it at AFD. It will likely result in the use of the UN agglomeration data as was done for List of metropolitan areas by population. The UN lists the Zagreb agglomeration with a population of 770,000. Just find any reliable source that refers to the definition you want to use. Isn't there even one such source? The sources you give only list populations of various administrative units. Just cite a source saying something like "the metropolitan area is the combination of the following regions". --Polaron | Talk 19:21, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that no official category like that exists in Croatia, since only Zagreb can really be called a metropolis. The number you stated, 770,000 is the population within the city limits. However, newspapers and unofficial sources frequently refer to Zagreb as having approx. 1,1 million inhabitants in the "wider city area". I can find dozens of sources like that but what's the use? I can't help but wonder how accurate this list really is if we can't even agree on what constitutes a metropolitan area. Besides, the opening paragraph of this article clearly states "These figures should be seen as an interpretation, not as conclusive fact.", so I really don't see what the big fuss is about... --Dr.Gonzo 21:32, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Aarhus triangle

Please provide a reference so that we can verify the figures that you are adding. At the moment the cited sources suggest that the current figures are correct. We need to provide a Verifiable encyclopedia especially when related to facts such as these. May i remind everyone of the WP:3RR rule. Woodym555 13:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

The Aarhus metropolitan area has 804,878 inhabihants but Aarhus is also a part of the larger East jutland metropolitan area whit 1,045,422 inhabitants http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aarhus_metropolitan_area where the triangle area is included, http://www.frinet.dk/infrastruktur2030 http://www.trafikdage.dk/doks/endeligtpaper/tdpaper107.pdf note that this is a new metropolitan area becouse of the pace in the population growth in East jutland, it is by far the fastest growing area in denmark whit a growth of almost 10,000 per year, the figure 1,045,422 is when you adding up the Municipalities in East jutland, these Municipalities are now in a corporation to develop the area to a metropolis that can rival the Copenhagen area and the Hamburg area, i am not claiming that the area is one big city yet but the area is a metropolitan area in the same way as the Rhine Neckar Area in germany, the inhabitants figures is maybe even to small becouse more Municipalities such as Haderslev and Billund will join the corporation. London1234 —Preceding unsigned comment added by London1234 (talk • contribs) 09:33, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ankara and İzmir

Ankara (capital of Turkey) and İzmir is 2nd and 3rd largest cities of Turkey. Their population is: ==> Ankara: 4,561,525 ; İzmir: 2,752,668. But they aren't in the list. And I don't know add they. Please add!.. 81.213.89.45 17:34, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

The cities of Ankara and Izmir aren't in Europe, and although Turkey is partly in Europe I don't think they should be included in this list. --Dr.Gonzo 22:21, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Russia isnt in europe at all and moscow i think if there is moscow there must be ankara and izmir i know how to add but i dont want to do sth without any permission —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.215.46.181 (talk) 12:31, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Russia and Turkey are both countries that are situated in both Europe and Asia. Only cities in the European part of these countries are counted. Therefore Moscow and Istanbul are, and Izmir and Ankara aren't. --Lamadude (talk) 17:13, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Polarons behaviour

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Largest_European_metropolitan_areas&diff=161868292&oldid=161867312~´ he has done the following rv of my edit. This info is found on official statistic data from the Statistics institute. I would like to know where the 1,288,634 for Porto Metropolitan Area comes from. That is not from any statistics that I know. It is stupid to revert correct data to incorrect one, based on personal suppositions of sourced or unsourced. Reverting again. -Pedro 00:32, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

• Anyway, that number for the Metropolitan areas of Portuguese cities are based on political definitions of Metro areas, I've noticed that this ranking people are using agglomerations (without any political entity), if considering agglomerations (as the name "metropolitan area" is taken by political associations of municipalities), Portugal has two of 3 million each: Porto and Lisbon (areas not politically bound). See Demographics of Portugal. --Pedro 00:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Would it trouble you too much to add a link to an official definition of the statistical unit and its population from INE? Unsourced changes should be reverted to the fallback figures. Thanks. --Polaron | Talk 00:53, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Russia isnt in europe at all and moscow i think if there is moscow there must be ankara and izmir i know how to add but i dont want to do sth without any permission

Istanbul is half in Europe , half in Asia, so this city can't be integrated in European cities —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.123.81.25 (talk) 21:52, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Moscow is certainly a European city geographically, a major part of Russia is in Eastern Europe. The dividing line between Europe and Asia is the Ural mountain range. Turkey, meanwhile, has a tiny "enclave" in Europe, since the Bosphorus is the geographical border between Europe and Asia in that region. Check the Latin name for the area which is now Turkey, namely "Asia minor". While I feel that Istanbul deserves a place in that list, because it, after all IS partially located in Europe and is a European city by social and cultural standards, neither Ankara nor Izmir qualify. Vargher (talk) 21:44, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Milan

According to this study by OECD Milan metro area has 7,4 millions inhabitants. Figure should be updated.--89.97.35.70 (talk) 13:46, 23 February 2008 (UTC)