Talk:Lara Veronin
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how can we classify every single Taiwanese person as Chinese?? This is such a big violation of NPOV. It is disputed and highly controversial.--Bonafide.hustla 02:32, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
- Something like "Chinese language vocalists" would be better than "Chinese singers", but only if it really is Chinese. Monni 04:06, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
- Being Chinese does not necessarily mean you are a citizen of China. If you speak the language, which Taiwanese people do, then you are also Chinese. When speaking English, people from Hongkong and Taiwanese don't normally tell you that they are Hongkongnese or Taiwanese when asked about their ethnicity. They generally tell you that they are Chinese. However, if you ask them where they are from, then they will be more specific.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Emeraldhue (talk • contribs) .
Most Taiwanese speaks Taiwanese. Mandarin is teach in school but in a very different form than China. Taiwanese will definitely tell you they're Taiwanese since a lot of Taiwanese consider China as "the enemy" rather than identify themselves as Chinese, which they consider a great insult. The point you are making is strongly POV and I doubt if you are a Taiwanese or strictly making false assumptions.--Bonafide.hustla 00:10, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
- The post above mine is dead wrong. A very small percentage of people can speak accentless standard Mandarin (much much smaller than the proportion of Americans who can speak accentless General American). Almost everywhere you go in China, the Mandarin being spoken, if spoken at all, is accented with a regional dialect. So saying that Taiwanese Mandarin is "in a very different form than China" has no bearing in this discussion since "Taiwanese Mandarin is closer to Cantonese Mandarin than Cantonese Mandarin is to Beijing Mandarin." The Mandarin they used for television documentaries, news broadcasting, and Chinese language instruction is very similar to the Putonghua being used in mainland China. The standards are very alike, though colloquial usage has noticable differences from the standard, as is the case anywhere, including Beijing.
- Taiwanese (native Taiwanese, not Mainlanders or aborigines) speak by codeswitching between Mandarin and Taiwanese. The proportion of each depends on geographical location, social setting, eductional background, and social class.
- The claim being made here is not "strongly POV" or POV at all if we can define what we mean by "Chinese." Linguistically and culturally, Taiwanese do have an overall consensus of identifying as Chinese.--Jiang 01:54, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Taiwanese do have an overall consensus of identifying as Chinese? This is likely your personal bias toward Taiwan, promoting violence against Taiwan and spreading communist propaganda (such as the images on your talkpage and userpage). YOu have no right to accuse others of POV pushing when you are doing that yourself all the time.--Bonafide.hustla 07:07, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
- Back up your statements or they shouldn't be taken seriously at all.--Jiang 09:21, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
- Bonafide, you've taken this way out of context, or you misunderstood what I was trying to get across. First off, no I'm not Taiwanese. I hold American citizenship with Chinese ethnicity (Cantonese if you want to be exact). Living in America for most of my life, I have ran into many many Taiwanese and Hongkongnese living in US, and I don't have the kind of bias from my previous generations. That being said, while I think it's great that you look at Mainland China as the enemy and that "any personal bias toward Taiwan" definitely means that the person is making an attempt at "promoting violence against Taiwan and spreading communist propaganda", I for one do not care because that was not the topic of my discussion (and I frankly think this rivalry is quite stupid for both sides). What I meant was, during an English conversation in an English-speaking country between a Taiwanese and a non-Asian person who is mostly oblivious to the Oriental cultures, the Taiwanese will most likely respond that he/she is Chinese for simplicity's sake when asked about his/her ethnicity. He/she knows that if the response is "Taiwanese", the other person will probably scratch his head not because he doesn't know where or what Taiwan is, but because he will probably ask himself, "isn't that Chinese?" Then, my friend, you will be spending the next hour explaining to him about communism, propaganda, or any other riffraff you feel you are entitled to share about being a Taiwanese. But in most cases, people don't have the time or don't want to go through all that trouble. So simply a "I'm Chinese" will do.--Emeraldhue
Most western countries are actually quite aware of the complicated political situation in Taiwan. A Taiwanese proclaiming himself as Chinese is really like a Japanese/Korean/Singaporean person saying he's Chinese. It's not reasonable. Hong Kong and Taiwan are different. Hong Kong is a de facto Chinese territory, Taiwan currently is not. (although Chinese desperately want to annex Taiwan). Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and such delicate topic should be taken seriously. IT is a lot different to talk to your friends (although it is important to point out the difference between different Asian countries). IN addition, according to your reasoning, you are implying that a Canadian should be called an American for convenient purpose. This is obviously incorrrect.--Bonafide.hustla 05:20, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yes Western countries are aware of the political differences, but again this discussion has little political bearing. What we are focusing is the cultural link. Would you not agree that Chinese Mainlanders and Taiwanese are more culturally linked than Canadians and Americans? Canadians should never be called Americans because their only similiarities are the language and English descent (and that's not even true for French Canadians). The same goes for Australians. Their roots may have come from the same place, but their backgrounds are different. However, Taiwanese and Mainlanders share much much more culturally. Just to give ONE example, the 5000 year old Chinese history is accepted by both peoples as part of their own history, and it is taught in schools in both places. National history does not begin after the 1940s (about the time PRC and ROC were split apart). In America, things are different in that Americans do not incorporate British history into their own. American history generally starts with the Declaration of Independence. That's one of the reasons why Americans are not Canadians and vice versa. As for Hong Kong, while still under British control before 1997 (having nothing to do with the Chinese government at the time), people of Hong Kong still accepted the fact that they were Chinese not because they felt that they were under PRC's rule, but because they knew that their cultures were similar. Now if we talk a little about the political aspect, Taiwan is ROC right? ROC = Republic of China, right? So if Chinese isn't the logical name for citizens of the Republic of China, then perhaps we should call them Chinan? Chinian? Or how about my favorite, Chinish? On another note, both PRC and ROC recognize Sun Yat-sen to be the first President in their history. He was also the founder of ROC (and later Kuomingtang). During the time he was leader, under what name do you think the Westerners called the people of ROC? It definitely wasn't Taiwanese as nobody lived in the island of Taiwan other than its natives. I don't think the people under ROC lost their Chinese identity after they were forced to relocate to the island of Taiwan. Otherwise the country would not be called ROC either. Emeraldhue 17:04, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Reverts
I simply don't understand the reverts. Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies) states plainly that we don't put ethnicity in header, only nationality, so you can not put in "Russian-Taiwanese-American". Which one is her nationality? Taiwanese seems to be it. I suppose a claim could be made for American. Definitely not Russian, though. As for her ethnicity, if she has Russian ancestry, that can certainly go in the article, but it would need a source. See Wikipedia:Citing sources. The burden of sources is on those who want to include the information, so "do some research" applies to whoever wants to include it. Mad Jack 03:06, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I really don't understand what's the noise... This is a stub article, there is no sections, so there is no header either. Veronin (originally: Voronin) is Russian (Molokan) name. I know because my family is from former Soviet Union. AFAIR originally the text did read she was Russian-Chinese, but as she has lived in both USA (she was born there) and Taiwan it was adjusted to "Russian-Taiwanese-American". So I would vote for "American" for nationality and "Russian-Chinese" for ethnicity. As for her Russian ancestry, I'm pretty confident that it's from her fathers side, but lets find some verifiable proof to back it up. Monni 09:19, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Header means the first sentence or paragraph, usually. There is no such thing as a "Russian-Taiwanese-American singer", unless she has all three nationalities somehow (i.e. all three citizenships). It doesn't matter what her last name is. If we have a source that says she has Russian ancesty, then we can certainly mention it at some part of the article. Is she an American as well as Taiwanese citizen? If she has both citizenships than I suppose "Taiwanese/American" is appropriate for the header. Mad Jack 17:46, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- I do agree that "Russian-Taiwanese-American" is most likely a overkill. I would define header as whole block of text before first section header - kind of lead section or section zero as MediaWiki defines it. Monni 18:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
She's not Russian-Chinese, she's Russian-Taiwanese. Whether Taiwanese is Chinese is controversial, there is no indication that her parents are born in China.--Certified.Gangsta 21:12, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
AFAIK There is no indication either that her father was born in Russia, just that her father is Russian by ethnicity and that her mother is Chinese by ethnicity. I didn't say that both are absolute facts, but that's what is even remotely verifiable. What comes to absolute facts, in my opinion only way to get them is to ask her personally... It isn't so hard as her contact information is posted in various places around the internet. Only sh*tty thing in that is that some purists could consider that original research and by that definition is not valid for entry to Wikipedia. Most Google hits I could find by using plain English could and should be considered fan research and thus non-reliable. Monni 21:53, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
You're wrong by saying her mother is Chinese. She's not. She's Taiwanese.--Certified.Gangsta 06:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Are there reliable sources for any of this? (what ethnicities her mother, father, etc. are, etc.) If so, that can be included at some point in the article with the cited source. Mad Jack 06:56, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- I didn't say that any of the mentioned things are facts, I only said that is what other English sites (except Wikipedia mirrors) say. Like I also said, best way to get the facts is to ask herself. Monni 08:04, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Where's her Cyrillic name
Like all the people who go around slapping Chinese language in articles even where it is irrelevant, shouldn't this name be rendered in Cyrillic? Gene Nygaard (talk) 16:25, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- If you can find it. But the thing is, she's credited occasionally using solely Chinese characters for certain dramas, and it's a name that isn't a direct transliteration of "Lara Veronin". Pandacomics (talk) 00:08, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
