Talk:Lands of Sweden
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When learning to understand, and in particular to speak, Swedish the concepts of Svealand, Götaland, Norrland & Swedephone Finland are of not so small importance. I have no knowledge of whether the borders of typical Svealands-prosody follows the true border of Svealand, but typologically it's perfect. Three-four types can be handled by the human brain. (Of course, in reality it then turns out that everything is more complicated than so, but after 10 years of contact with Swedish, and 2½ thereof quite intensive, it's still enough for me.) I don't say that this ought to be put in this article, possibly it alreay says so in a language-related article, but maybe it's reason to consider? :-)
Under Counties of Sweden, however, it's stated that the concept of lands of Sweden has only a cultural significance. I don't know what's true, but when I learned that härads and lands still are units for courts of justice, I recognized a continuity to the pre-historic times - a continuity which is not quite as usual in other parts of Europe. But of course, maybe I'm only romanticizing now. :-)))
-- Ruhrjung 07:10 May 4, 2003 (UTC)
- The relevance of being able to distinguish between Götaland and Svealand is seen every day in the weather reports, and Swedes are in general very much concerned with the weather outlook and forecasts. Historically Götaland and Svealand were more narrow as concepts. Where the Svealands (Svealänder) might have been concentrated to the later developed provinces of Södermanland and Uppland and respectively for Västergötland and Östergötland. There are still very much noticeable dialectal differences between people from different parts of Sweden and these are connoted with the provincial (landskap) identity. There are also different cultural traditions which you are privy to by your provincial cultural identity.
- It is common practice that the Svealand etc are confinded to the specific provinces. There are however two complications to this. Other definitions than the commonly accepted provincial borders and the lands adhering to them. Other lines of division, especially between Norrland and Svealand, than established by the boundaries.
- While defunct since the 17th century the traditions of the provinces are still maintained by the current county administrations, not the least for use in tourist promotion, for historical reasons such as heraldry. Information on other defunct admninistrative entities are quite hard to come by. Information on provinvial districts (härad) and congregations (socken) can often be found related to genealogy since church records were kept on that level. Though the provincial districts followed provincial boundary there were also counties which could transgress distric borders, sometimes leaving different parts of the same congregation in different counties. Even development of the county structure is not easy uncover. Some County Administrative Boards (Länsstyrelse) maintain history publicly availiable with lists of County Governors (Landshövding) while others don't. The court system was based on the provincial and district division but there has also been augmentations, like Göta Hovrätt that was supplemented by "Hovrätten för Västra Sverige" and thus losing part of its jurisdiction over Götaland. I hope to bring light to more of this in the articles and any one knowledgeable and willing has the opportunity to contribute. Regarding the map, I feel that it does supply relevant additional information, however it will always be a compromise and would be covered better in a step by step development. -- Mic
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- The map looks good. It gives, perhaps unintended, a picture of what historically was centrum vs periphery, which most definitely addresses the Chauvinism-sensivities I initially referred to. Most certainly any presentation of data is a compromise, a matter of what to prioritize or highlight. The very same map could in fact, with a different coloring scheme, give the immediate impression of movement from East to South. But, please do not misinterpret me: That's nothing I propose! :) -- Ruhrjung 11:11 May 5, 2003 (UTC)
- What are the colors on the map supposed to represent? Rmhermen 15:00 May 5, 2003 (UTC)
What is the source of the statement that Svealand and Götaland were kingdoms? When was there ever a "king of Götaland" and what would his name have been? Each province (Västergötland, Östergötland, Uppland, Södermanland) had its own law for some time even after a single king of Sweden ruled the united country, until the first nationwide law of king Magnus appeared in 1350. My impression is that this article wishes to establish these "lands" as factual units, when I think it should leave a lot more to doubt.
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[edit] Renaming the article?
Should this article be called Historic Lands of Sweden or the Lands of historic Sweden? On a more genereal note, it is interesting to see how many Swedens, Swedish lands, Swedish provinces and Swedish realms there are in the English wikipedia. Usually, in a work of reference there is only one article on a geographical area or a socio-political entity with possible subarticles about its history. Clarifer 08:36, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
- A move seems very reasonable, to avoid confusion. I can not say which version is best though. / Habj 13:33, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Svears, Götars and Vends
As far as I know, "Sveriges, Götes och Vendes Konung" means "King of the Swedes, Goths [?], and Wends." The paragraph began with "An interpretation has been made that...", making the entire thing unverifiable. I could be wrong, though...any ideas?
- Here is a discussion on the topic. Maybe it clarifies the thing? Alx-pl D 15:55, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
- I don't really read Swedish; I only know a few words, so I don't know what that says. Ardric47 02:30, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
- Recently, I've been seeing more references to the Svears, Götars, and Vends possibly different from the Swedes, Goths, and Wends, so perhaps that information should be added back in some form. Ardric47 03:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Sources and time line regarding these four lands
The only source for the border of Norrland being at Oulujoki that I have found, is in Nordisk familjebok [1]. "I följande tider ansågs N:s gräns å finska sidan vara vid Uleå älf, men har nu i mer än tre århundraden utgjorts af Torneå älf2 - "In the following times [after 1433, if I understand the text correctly] the Norrland border of the Finnish side was considered to be at Oulujoki, but since more than three hundred Torneå älv has been considered as this border." A more common notion is Norrland's border in Finland being at Kemijoki, which is quite far north (it runs out to the sea some 20 - 30 km from the border to Sweden). It is quite easy finding sources saying that Västerbotten met Ostrobothnia (Österbotten) at Kemijoki, and this was considered the border between Finland and Sweden. [2]
Most of the Google hits for österland norrland svealand götaland [3] seems to be derived from the Wikipedia article, and of the others most seem to use the concepts differently. I wonder what the sources are for this definition. I suppose it has existed at one time or another, but definately not from old time till 1809. Info on the sources regarding these four lands would be great. / Habj 19:31, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Reasons for selection of capital
- The town of Stockholm, which became the Swedish capital mostly because it was centrally located in Sweden of its medieval boundaries (i.e. the brightest area on the map) now became situated at the eastern border.
This text seems artificial and badly justified to me. Can we have any verifiable sources for it? The reasons behind selection of Stockholm are far more trivial - it is within the Svea proper, is on the coast (thus good for international trade), is well connected with the interior through the lake Melaren and guards the entrance to the lake, etc. Yes, later Sweden may have benefitted from the good position of the city with relation to the Österland, but I personally would not consider this as main decision factor. There is also a very interesting tale retold by Selma Lagerlöf which again does stress on city's trade and military beneftis and not on its position. -- Goldie (tell me) 07:51, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
