Talk:Kristang people

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what happened to the section on Architecture??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.156.6.54 (talk • contribs)

Contents 1 Cleanup 1.1 == 2 More on the Kristang people 3 Better name?

[edit] Cleanup

This article needs cleanup, I will come back to it when I can. J. Finkelstein 06:28, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

moto 'merseh

[edit] ==

thank you J ^_^ the kristang articles have been my babies since i started them from scratch. I warmly welcome and appreciate all the academic help available. papia kristang is my heritage and a very personal topic for me. do you have any ideas how to expand this article? - Kevin~~ 121.7.100.129 14:26, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I just added the more info on Kristangs and the Portuguese influence on Malay language.I will add more on the more info on Kristangs later.

[edit] More on the Kristang people

I think that section should be broken up into smaller sections or incorporated into other sections. Besides, that section looks like it has been lifted from another article.Wai Hong 16:12, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Well,I got it from a 1986 book.I thought there were some additional points,so I added.Also it was from a professional one,compared to the firstly made one which is amateur.

[edit] Better name?

Is Kristang the best name for this article? I think the better name would be Serani, or Portuguese Malaysian, or Malaysian Portuguese. Some of my reasons are: 1) a mixed portuguese friend of mine said that term Kristang might be offensive to some (perhaps cos carries some religious connotations); 2) also, according to the same friend, Kristang refers to a particular Portuguese ethnic, and does not represent all Portuguese in M'sia; 3) the term Kristang, i believe, is rarely used in Malaysia. i myself heard it 1st time in wikipedia ; 4) it doesnt really sound nice :p . What do u guys think? kawaputra^tok2me 11:43, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

This so-called Malaysian "Portuguese",are made up of three different groups:those with roots from Siam,Malacca and Goa.Now,I prefer to call these peoples Portuguese descendants rather than Portuguese,Malaysian Portuguese or Portuguese Eurasian.Why? Because thats what they are:Portuguese descendants! The Malaccan branch started out as half Portuguese half Malaccan Malay,Siamese one as half Portuguese half Siamese and same goes for the Goanese with halfs on both sides.Look at the descendants today.They are so far removed from this ancestry and are sooo mixed.How can you still call them just an ethnic group? But what these people have in common is that they descend from the Portuguese and have somewhat preserved and passed on the culture to future generations. J87

Ya that makes sense. So u suggest Portuguese descendants. However, Ive never seen any article being titled this way. Eg: in the US ppl with Irish ancestry, or Irish descendants, are still known as Irish American. I think this is the naming convention we have to follow. kawaputra^torque 05:33, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

This article is indeed about a particular historical ethnic group, which (according to the sources I have) was called 'Kristang' by others and by themselves. It is not about people of Portuguese descent in Malaysia, much less about the Portuguese-descent communities elsewhere in Asia (some of which have their own articles). Perhaps there should be a separate page for 'Portuguese Malaysian people' (or, better, 'Asian communities of Portuguese descent') which points to the 'Kristang people' page and other relevant ethnic groups (if any). The analogy with 'Irish American' is questionable, because their history is rather different from both 'Kristang' and 'Portuguese Malaysian'. Jorge Stolfi 11:52, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Ya. Perhaps there should be a separate article for Portuguese Malaysian. However, i still dont understand what the difference is. The article says "most Kristang people have mixed Portuguese and Asian descent." Which is consistent with Portuguese Malaysian. And then say, "..while others have Dutch or British ancestry". Which sounds like plain Eurasian in general. It sounds more like an umbrella term, as opposed to a particular/specific ethnic group. I dunno, maybe something i didnt get. kawaputra^torque 10:13, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Like I've said.The Portuguese desncended peoples of Malaysia are of three different groups:Siamese/Thai Portuguese,Malaccan Portuguese and Goanese Portuguese. All these communities started out as being half Portuguese and half the other from the start. If you look at the Malaccan one,by now,they are sooooo far removed from this ancestry.But the descendants have kept the knowledge of being descended from one alive.Now,there were only over 200 marriages between Portuguese men and Malacaan women in Malacca.The fruits of these unions became a new hybrid ethnic group of Portuguese and Malaccan Malay.They had their food,their language,their religion etc.

In blood terms,they were half Portuguese and half Malaccan Malay.That was for this ethnic group.

People of the same ethnicity tend to live together and marry each other.Thats probably how this Kristang came alive with people of the common "thing" coming together and expanding it through marriage and living together.

But because this was a small ethnic group,surely after many generations of marriage to each other,many of them are closely related and start marrying people on non-Portuguese ancestry.

So marriages to peoples of other ethnic groups happens.Their Portuguese blood diminishes,but depending on circumstances,their Kristangness may or may not survive after marrying people of other ethnicities through the generations.

If you look at those in Malaysia,they dont look European anymore.Kristangs look either Malay,Chindian,Chinese,Indian,Malay+Indian or Eurasian.

Look at Marion Caunter.Since she's from Penang,she's probably of the Siamese/Thai stock group.But look at her features.She looks clearly Chinese,except her cheeckbones which could be the result of her closer English ancestry.Look at Tony Fernandes,he looks 100% Indian.Tony's of the Goanese stock.I have met Kristangs who have European features.When asked,they said it's because of recent European admixture,or because descended from the Dutch in Malacca who were there till the 1800's.Look at Jeremy Monteiro,he looks Chinese.

My father has a friend who is a Kristang and is a Monteiro too,but he looks 100% Malay and his skin is dark.Looks absolutly nothing like his relative Jeremy.Another example,last years Miss Malaysia.In the papers they mention her ancestry as Chinese and Eurasian.She looks 100% Chinese.She's defenetly of Kristang descent because during the World Cup,there was a picture of her in the front page of The Star if I'm not mistaken holding the Portuguese flag as the team she supports.She's from Malacca too.

Again,because the Kristangs were probably the only Roman Catholic Christian group in the country for a very long time,therefore of course most things from this Roman Catholic group is of Kristang people and culture.Hence,the name of the Portuguese+Malaccan Malay group:Kristang/Serani(Christians) and the survival of their Portugueseness.

So what I was saying with that passage just above,is that,its probably their Roman Catholicism is what kept their Kristangness/Portugueseness alive throughout the centuries of intermarriage to non Kristangs.Roman Catholicism and Kristang identity are interwined.

An example,the Kristang group started as Kristang(half Portuguese half Malaccan Malay in blood) and then married Kristang,Kristang,Kristang,Kristang,Kristang,Kristang,Kristang,Kristang,Kristang,Kristang and then Malay,Malay,Kristang,Indian,Malay,Chinese,Indian,Indian,Chinese,Dutch then Dutch Eurasian and another Dutch Eurasian,Indian,Malay,British,Chinese,Chinese,Chinese,Indian and so on.....

That illustration was my example.So you see,the "Portuguese" of Malaysia are faaaar removed from their original Kristang ancestry.So since the Portuguese aspect is a big symbol of this group,that's why I propose "Portuguese descendants". J87