Talk:Kabar

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The contention that the ancient Kabars had anything to do with the Avars is erroneous. All of the ancient primary sources agree that the Kabars were rebel Khazar tribes who joined the proto-Magyars in their emigration from the Ukraine to the Danube.

I understand how this confusion might have come about. Modern Kabards belong to a modern ethnic group called Avars, whose relation, if any, to the ancient Avars is dubious and in much dispute. Language is not a static thing. Names change over 1500 years.

Ddama

Previously the page was a redirect to the Avar page (the one that described the ancient ones), so it's better that it stays as a disambiguation page because there may be other outdated/wrong references like that, and we have a proper page for Kabards anyway. You can tack on the fact that it's wrong in the article. --Shallot 08:14, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It would make little sense to include the Kabars as a tack-on to the Avar article. It would be equivalent to having a redirect from French language to Spanish language and a mention on the Spanish page that there was such a thing as French. Ok, the analogy isn't great, but Kabars do not = Avars at all, so the redirect is clearly in error. If there is going to be a Kabar page it should talk about Kabars.

Wiki is pretty handy. There's a "What links here" tab. I'll fix any links broken by this change.

Ddama

Ddama can you produce references for your ancient your sources please? Zestauferov 16:48, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I can't recall the primaries at the moment, but Peter Golden's Introduction to the History of the Turkic Peoples and Khazar Studies would be good places to start looking. Please note that my computer recently dropped dead, so my Wikipedia access will be intermittent until I can obtain repairs or a new computer.

Ddama

Thts ok Ddama, take your time. I hope all goes well for youZestauferov 12:15, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Kavar and Star Wars

Kavar is also the name of a somewhat prominent character from the Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic. Problem is, Kavar redirects to this page. How can this be resolved? Imperialles 20:36, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Nevermind, figured out how to make disambiguation pages. Searching for Kavar will now lead to such a page. Imperialles

[edit] Clarification of some confusions

1. Kabars are clearly a Turkic tribe, not an Alan tribe. The Alans where an Indo-European (Nort-Western Iranian sub-group)tribal cluster who emigrated toward the Western Europe after the forth century and than in North Africa, where they founded, toghether with the Vandals, the short lived Kingdom of Vandals and Alans. When the Kabars appeared in the North Pontic steppe, the Alans where not anymore in the area since centuries.

2. After the defeat from the hands of the Cuman tribe, the Hungarians and them allies, the Turkic Kabars retreated toward north, along the Dnestr River, because the Cumans just beginned to control the lowlands of the actual Moldavia and Romania and forbided the retreat of the Hungarians and Kabars toward Transsylvania. Arpad and his tribal confederation of Hungarians and Kabars crossed the Carpations in the nowday Zakarpatia Region of Ukraine, in order to swiftly and efficiently attack from the rear the Swiatopluk's Slavic state.

3. The Hungarians made several plundering raids and conquest attempts into Transsylvania, as proved by the archeological evidences and by the historical accounts, during the 10th century. And actually conquered this territory later in the 11th century, in a sistematic manner, after the Christianisation of the Hungarian People.

Please make the necessary corrections to the article, Sincerely yours, —Preceding unsigned comment added by Transsylvanian (talk • contribs) 09:45, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

First of all, it helps to sign your name at the end.

Second of all, original research is NOT permitted in Wikipedia. Before I talk about Kabardins, your assumption that Kabardins don't come from Alans is correct, however, your assumption that all Alans disappeared into history is incorrect. Ossetians of North Caucasus, whose self-designation has always been 'Iron' (a cognate of 'Alan'; both are variants of the word 'Aryan') who speak an Indo-European Iranian language, descend from the historical Alans, settling in Caucasus in early middle ages due to the Mongol drive to the west.

Now, Kabardins are a tribe of Adyghe (Circassian) peoples, who during the 13th-14th centuries resettled from the west Caucasus to where they are now to form Greater and Lesser Kabardas. Confirming the fact that they are Caucasian in origin rather than Turkic is their language, which belongs to the Northwest Caucasian language group. Caucasian language family, in case you don't know, has nothing in common with Indo-European and Turkic language families, or any other language families, other than the Basque language of Iberian peninsula, with the proposal that Basque and Caucasian languages share a common origin now being mainly accepted by scholars.

Where you got your information that Kabardins are a Turkic people is a mystery to me, but I'll be glad to know your source and continue this argument with you to prove your assertion wrong. Even Kabardins themselves don't consider themselves Turkic, and your assertion is more reminiscent of the typical Turkish propaganda which tries to pigeonhole every group of people that are relatively unknown as being Turkic. This kind of Turkish "research" has no place in this encyclopedia, let alone ANY. Or perhaps you were confused by the fact that today in Caucasus, there is a republic of Kabardino-Balkaria. Now, Balkars speak a Turkic language, but they and Kabardins only share the republic where they constitute the majority, and not their origin or language. --24.188.136.219 (talk) 19:49, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Err...someone had referred to Kabardins as Kabars with a link, causing this confusion. Don't mind my post above --24.188.136.219 (talk) 20:08, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

This is my original post at the Karachay, NOT Kabardin article: ''It is well known that the Alans was an more than 3000 years old and prestigious north-western iranian people of indo-european descent. During the first centuries AD, they competed with the other north-western iranian peoples of indo-european descent -the Sarmatians- over the stepe territory between the Don and Volga. After them defeat on the hands of the Huns in the year 370, they begun their westward migrations together with the Vandals, Goths and other migrating peoples. Some of the Alans settled in Ukraine, Pannonia, Gaul, Hispania and Africa (modern day Hungary, France, Spain and Tunisia) and assimilated with the local peoples.Some of the Alans, retreated from the stepe into the Caucasus Mountains and become the modern - day Ossetians. It is remarcable that the modern-day Ossetians are still using the north-western iranian language and they are still calling themselves "iron" (meaning "of iranian descent"). But some of the Alans, retreated into the actual area of Karachay and settled on the northen slopes of the Caucasus Range.

After abb. 800 years, during the middle 11-th century, the Mongolian Invasion pushed the Turkic warriors of the stepes toward the Caucasus Mountains (as previousely the Huns pushed Alans)and the newly arrived Turkic tribes mingled with the Highland Alans.

The resulting people, the actual Karachays, are a Turkic - speaking people who adopted Islam in the 15-th century. Therefore, the Karachays have some partial Alan ancestry and they did not remained faithfull to the indo-european and iranian language, as the Ossetians did.

Therefore I NEVER said that Kabardins are Turkic ! 1- I know that there is alot of crappy and boring Turkish propaganda propaganda which tries to pigeonhole every group of people that are relatively unknown as being Turkic. 2- I know very well that the Caucasian language family has nothing in common with Indo-European and Turkic language families. I know very well that the Kabardins are Caucasians ! 3- I know that the Balkars and Karachay are Turkic and I know that the Alans and them offspring - the Ossetians - are a North-Iranian people. In fact I wrote an article about the Iranian origin of the Alans and respectively Ossetians. 4- As a matter of fact I have an extensive record about the peoples of Caucasus (Caucasians, Indo-European and Turkic )and I can provide further informations about them, in order to avoid confusions and crap propaganda you are talking.

Take care with your comments... Regards, and Good Luck. User:Transsylvanian —Preceding unsigned comment added by Transsylvanian (talk • contribs) 09:45, 21 March 2008 (UTC)