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Talk:Judo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Talk:Judo

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[edit] Origins

I've seen a credible documentary which claims that Judo has Indian origins. Name of the source wanted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.146.149.231 (talk) 05:44, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Judo article.
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This article is part of the "Olympic events" set of articles nominated for Version 0.7. Discuss this nomination, or see the set nominations page for more details.
Good article Judo was a nominee for good article, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
December 28, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed
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[edit] Auto review

Been quiet here for a while & thougth this might help:

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.
*Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at Wikipedia:Lead. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.[?] done--Nate1481( t/c) 16:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
*Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.[?] done--David Broadfoot (talk) 07:46, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
*See if possible if there is a free use image that can go on the top right corner of this article.[?]--Nate1481( t/c) 16:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

*Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), there should be a non-breaking space -   between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 78 kg, use 78 kg, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 78 kg.[?] done--David Broadfoot (talk) 07:59, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), please spell out source units of measurements in text; for example, the Moon is 380,000 kilometres (240,000 mi) from Earth.[?] Specifically, an example is 78 kg.

*Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Build the web, years with full dates should be linked; for example, link January 15, 2006.[?] done--David Broadfoot (talk) 08:06, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
*Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), headings generally do not start with articles ('the', 'a(n)'). For example, if there was a section called ==The Biography==, it should be changed to ==Biography==.[?]done --Nate1481( t/c) 16:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
*Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), headings generally should not repeat the title of the article. For example, if the article was Ferdinand Magellan, instead of using the heading ==Magellan's journey==, use ==Journey==.[?] done--David Broadfoot (talk) 07:55, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Per WP:WIAFA, this article's table of contents (ToC) may be too long- consider shrinking it down by merging short sections or using a proper system of daughter pages as per Wikipedia:Summary style.[?]

*There are a few occurrences of weasel words in this article- please observe WP:AWT. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view.

  • is considered
  • are considered
  • might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper citations (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please strike this comment).[?] done --Nate1481( t/c) 16:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

*Please make the spelling of English words consistent with either American or British spelling, depending upon the subject of the article. Examples include: defense (A) (British: defence), defence (B) (American: defense), organize (A) (British: organise), recognize (A) (British: recognise), categorize (A) (British: categorise), ization (A) (British: isation), counter-attack (B) (American: counterattack), anymore (A) (British: any more), gray (A) (British: grey). put to British English as per first version ([1]) except section on American judo ranks. --Nate1481( t/c) 16:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

  • Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
    • Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.” - needs work--Nate1481( t/c) 16:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Avoid using contractions like (outside of quotations): doesn't.
  • Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.[?]

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Nate1481( t/c) 11:25, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] judogi

Are the elbows and crotch of the judogi more reinforced and padded then a karategi? Basejumper 19:00, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

In general the judogi is more reinforced than the karategi so the short answer is yes. Actually there is no extra padding or reinforcement in the elbows or crotch simply because the entire fabric of the judogi is stronger than the karategi. Loudenvier 16:12, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

A judogi is manufactured in a thicker weave than most other gi to prevent tearing and therefore supplies a small amount of extra padding, but no portion is specifically padded to reduce impacts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.209.216.184 (talk) 21:39, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Judo in Mixed Martial Arts?

Judo and throwing play little importance in MMA and actual street fighting which emphasize striking and grappling. Fedor Emelianenko has done judo tournaments, but he is strictly a samboist, not a judoka. His brother and sambo world champion, Aleksander Emelianenko even went so far as to say in an interview that he finished many fights on the ground just so he could show that "sambo is superior to judo."

The MMA fighters that have backgrounds in Judo are anything but top notch. Yamashita??? I can't think of any fighter that actually submitted verbally because someone kicked him in the leg too hard!

All due respect to Judo as a martial art and cultural treasure of Japan, but a serious fighting system it is certainly not. 84.112.40.182 21:22, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be lost. This is not a debating forum. Your comments have barely any relationship to the article. Furthermore, you do not appear to know what Judo is: your first sentence makes it clear that you do not realise that Judo *is* (one of several forms of) grappling. Your statement that 'Fedor Emelianenko is strictly a samboist' would come as agreat surprise to him, especially given that he is a former Russian national Judo Champion. So what if his brother said that he 'finished many fights on the ground just so he could show that "sambo is superior to judo"' - it just shows that he is confused: both Sambo and Judo comprise standing and ground techniques, and, in any case, him winning fights on the ground proves no such thing. --David Broadfoot 05:57, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
In addition, every single grappling technique Fedor has used in MMA competition is regularly taught in judo and commonly used in competition, from throws to guard passes to pins to armlocks. It's all in judo.
As far as other MMA fighters with backgrounds in judo not being top notch - Paulo Filho is WEC champion and undefeated in a long Pride career, and has stated that judo and jujutsu are his keys to victory, Yoshihiro Akiyama is K-1 Hero's GP champion, Kazuo Misaki is Pride WWGP champion. Karo Parisyan is a top contender for the UFC's welterweight title.
In his second MMA fight ever, Dong-Sik Yoon took Quinton Jackson to a very close judges' decision, taking him down several times and threatening with close submission attempts. Yoon has now won two fights in a row, and Jackson went on to become UFC champion a weight class above Yoon.
The remark about Yamashita submitting to a leg kick is bizarre, seeing how the man never fought in MMA.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.153.178.74 (talk) 22:53, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Kimura vs. Helio Gracie. Obviously Judo has a place in MMA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.209.216.184 (talk) 21:41, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nagewaza or tachiwaza?

While newaza is clearly the ground aspect of judo, the standing part of it I have heard referred to variously as both nagewaza and tachiwaza. I'm not sure which is correct. I know that tachiwaza translates, roughly (all translations are approximate at best, as obviously no two languages could be more different than English and Japanese) as "Standing techniques" while nagewaza means "Grappling techniques", but they seem to be synonomous. If anyone can clarify, I'd appreciate it.

RedVengeanceIII 21:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

They are not technically synonymous but are functionally so. Nagewaza does not mean "grappling techniques" - it means "throwing techniques". As 99.99% of tachiwaza in practice is nagewaza, they are interchangeable in use. Only when someone like Shinya Aoki pulls off a standing wakigatame (or similar) is tachiwaza not the same as nagewaza. FlowWTG 21:32, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm... that's quite interesting. I take it you're a fellow practitioner. RedVengeanceIII 18:53, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Tachi-waza is "standing techniques" but it's not interchangeable with Nage-waza or "throwing techniques." There are Tachi-waza that are not Nage-waza like standing chokes (Shime-waza) and standing armlocks (Kansetsu-waza.) There are also quite a few Nage-waza that are not Tachi-waza, including all of the Sutemi-waza "sacrifice throws" that are done from a lying or falling position.

Sbabb (talk) 22:30, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that is correct. All sutemi-waza are tachi-waza: the technique is initiated from the standing position. --David Broadfoot (talk) 05:48, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Response to above question.

Judogis are much sturdier than karate uniforms. They have to be, as they take a lot more abuse. Judogis come in two styles: single and double weave. The difference between the two is basically the difference between pajamas and armor. The single weaves are very comfortable but not nearly as durable as the double weaves, which feel like armor but will last years, maybe a lifetime. RedVengeanceIII 21:15, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sambo and Brazilian Jiu-jitsu

An anonymous editor recently made an edit recategorizing Sombo and Brazilian Jiu-jitsu as "arts derived primarily from Judo". The current version refers to them as substyles of Judo proper. Opinions?

I agree with the recategorization - Sambo and Brazilian Jiu-jitsu are clearly no longer part of Judo proper any more than Judo is Tenshin Shinyo Ryu or Kito Ryu. Sambo was influenced by Freestyle, Greco, Russian folkstyles, and whatever Jujutsu Spiridinov studied in addition to Judo. Brazilian Jiu-jitsu was started by a man with a measly year or so of training in Judo (Carlos Gracie) who was training under a Judoka with questionable/unknown amounts of exposure to Lancashire and Catch-as-Catch-Can Wrestling (Maeda) - and even more importantly has since wildly diverged. While Judo is clearly the main or major influence in Sambo and the primary influence in Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, the each of the arts have diverged enough that calling them separate arts is entirely justified. Saying that similarity to Judo makes it also Judo doesn't hold up when you try to apply it to Greco-Roman or Catch.

Additionally and importantly, I don't know of anyone in either Sambo or Brazilian Jiu-jitsu that would consider their art to be substyle of Judo. Respectfully. FlowWTG 02:40, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

It can be argued either way – it's important to choose the appropriate balance. Using your reasoning, it can also be argued that all those "styles" are separate derivates. It comes down to how much change there is from what Kano originally designated to be "judo".
While you say that "each of the arts have diverged enough that calling them separate arts is entirely justified", it can also be argued that "each of the arts have diverged so little, that calling them essentially the same art as created by Kano is entirely justified". It can easily be argued that BJJ is more a style of judo than judo-do is, because judo-do features throws based on different principles to Kano's, whereas BJJ's throws are based on the same principles as Kano’s.
Re your comment that "Sambo and Brazilian Jiu-jitsu are clearly no longer part of Judo proper any more than Judo is Tenshin Shinyo Ryu or Kito Ryu" - Firstly, the original author of that section was not saying that BJJ is "a part of” judo, let alone a part of judo “proper” - they were saying that BJJ is a "style" of judo. Secondly, to compare that to saying that "Sambo and Brazilian Jiu-jitsu are clearly no longer part of Judo proper any more than Judo is "Tenshin Shinyo Ryu" or "Judo is Kito Ryu" is incorrect because Judo never was "Tenshin Shinyo Ryu" and Judo never was "Kito Ryu" - Judo is/was a merging of those jujutsu styles (and others) along with a reformation of the techniques; a balanced theory of combat; a new philosophy; and new ways of teaching. It is all those things that make BJJ and Judo (for example) essentially the same (category).
Re your comment that "Saying that similarity to Judo makes it also Judo doesn't hold up when you try to apply it to Greco-Roman or Catch"... The authors of that section are not claiming that mere similarity to judo makes something a style of judo; they are effectively saying that extremely strong similarity to judo makes it a style of judo. I'd also point out that an advanced judoka can enter a Sambo tournament or a BJJ tournament with nothing more than an explanation of the slightly different rule set and point scoring methods, and feel quite at home, and perform well. The same cannot be said for a judoka who entered a Greco-Roman wrestling tournament.
With your argument about outside influences as a reason not to include a particular art as a style... on that basis, Russian Judo should not be categorized as a style of judo either, because it was heavily influenced by Sambo. And Olympic Judo is not judo either, because it has been influenced by Sambo!
Lastly, I don't think that it is really important what how many practitioners of Sambo or Brazilian Jiu-jitsu would consider their art to be a sub-style of judo. Some certainly do. And the more they learn about judo, the more likely they are to agree. In the Wikipedia entry for Sambo, it states that "Sport Sambo" is a "version" of Sambo, and that it "is similar to Judo". US Judo describes Sambo as “a sport very similar to Judo” here [2]. When judoka with no Sambo experience have entered and won international Sambo tournaments, it’s hard to argue that they are not essentially the same art. Ditto when in 1962 the Soviet team excelled at the European Judo Championships despite never having trained in Judo.
“Sport Sambo” is more similar to Judo than it is to “Combat Sambo”, so on the basis of similarity arguments alone, Sport Sambo is Judo, but it is not Sambo! My point is that categorization cannot be based on simple or narrow arguments.
BJJ as a style of judo was added on 28 December 2005, so has been accepted in Wikipedia for two years now. If you run all those sports through a cluster analysis, I believe that you'd end up getting the categorization as seen in the current judo article.
That anonymous editor simply took all the styles with "Judo" in their name and categorized them as "judo" and categorized all those without judo in their name as "derived arts" – I say “A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.” Thanks for opening up the discussion. --David Broadfoot 15:56, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I've reverted the revision of 11:50, 10 November 2007 by anonymous editor 147.126.95.165 because (a) it reintroduces spelling mistakes already corrected on 6-November and 8-November; (b) information about Judo being called Jiu-do and Jiu-Jitsu has been deleted; (c) no explanation is given as to why judo-do is any more a style of judo than BJJ or Sambo is; (d) that user's talk page is full of vandalism warnings [3] --David Broadfoot 10:00, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dr. Kano

While he is one of the few martial arts founders who actual had an advanced degree (several in fact) and held as professorship at a real university, according to the Manual of Style it should not be included in-line. --Nate1481( t/c) 13:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Judo Userbox

Hi, I've created a new user box for us Judoka. Below is shown the current userboxes relating to Judo, the first is the original userbox, the other(s) are the newer:

{{User:UBX/Judoka}}
This user is a Judoka.
Transclusions
{{User:Loudenvier/User Kodokan Judo}}
This user is a Kodokan judoka.
Transclusions
Very nice. Thank you very much! --David Broadfoot 09:07, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV content in article

There's is/was a bunch of POV content in this article. I've gone ahead and removed some of the clearest problem sentences, but there might be more. A few of the sentences could be replaced if a source is found, but others shouldn't be there at all (unless they're changed to "[this person] or [this organization] say ______" form, instead of "this is how it is"). Here's what I've removed so far: [4] [5] [6].

The section on Judo and MMA is problematic: the point of the paragraph is correct, but the way the point is expressed needs work. How about references to fighter rankings? MrVibrating (talk) 10:59, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I've removed some more POV/unsourced/weasel-worded statements. Also, sources for claims likely to be disputed can't come from judo websites, although you can say "[such and such] judo organization says that _________" (but not "this is so"<ref to judo website>. MrVibrating (talk) 11:02, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New image needed!

My God, surely we can find a better image than a couple of Army blokes in a shed wearing shoes and socks! 129.16.97.227 (talk) 15:40, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

What specifically is bad about the current image? MrVibrating (talk) 00:06, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
It does not represent the environment the vast majority of judo is performed in. How many dojos would allow senior judoka on the mat wearing shoes and/or socks? How many dojos include heavy machinery in the background? 85.224.8.124 (talk) 15:37, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Swoped with one from lower down, still uses both but the more prominatna one is now more acurate. --Nate1481( t/c) 09:18, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Commencing techniques from ground

A score for a throw is only given when executed starting from a standing position.

Is this still true? While I'm rusty as I haven't competed for some years, I seem to recall a reinterpretation of the rules some years ago allowing scores for throws initiated from the knees, thus treating uke and tori equally in this regard. Was this an IJF decision, or a local variant? 129.16.97.227 (talk) 16:39, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I believe that (a) tori must be standing, (b) uke must standing or on one or both knees; and (c) ne-waza must not have commenced i.e. once ne-waza has commenced, and one competitor stands and throws the other one, then there is no score - unless the referee has stopped the action and restarted the match from standing position. --David Broadfoot (talk) 12:55, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
OK, that must have been what I was thinking about. This changed sometime in the 90s, right? Ciao. 129.16.97.227 (talk) 11:05, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I am not aware of any change to that rule in the 90s or at any time. --David Broadfoot (talk) 12:38, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit war on 'Styles' section

An anonymous user had made twelve identical edits, each time a) removing BJJ and Sambo from the 'Styles' section, and b) deleting Fedor Emelianenko from the list of MMA judoka.

I have asked this user (numerous times on both on their talk page on my 'undo' edit summaries) to discuss the issue on this talk page, but they refuse to do so, and continue to make those deletions.

I note that:

1. BJJ and Sambo are two of the styles prefaced by the comment that "From Kano's original style of judo, the following similar forms have evolved" - please discuss here how is that statement incorrect rather than continue your edit war. (That preface was later changed to read "From Kano's original style of judo, several related forms have evolved—some now widely considered to be distinct arts".)
2. As for Fedor Emelianenko not being a judoka as argued by that user and another here that "Fedor Emelianenko has done judo tournaments, but he is strictly a samboist, not a judoka", I refer them to Fedor's Wikipedia entry and its citations, which state that Fedor began his training in both sambo and judo as a youth. Furthermore, his first national judo title was achieved in 1997, the same year he won his first national sambo title. He is also listed under Wikpedia's 'Russian judoka' category. Please provide information to back your claim that Fedor is not a judoka despite the cited evidence that he is.

The edit history is as follows:

  147.126.95.165 (24 Jan 2008)
  147.126.95.165 (21 Jan 2008)
  99.142.13.123  (22 Dec 2007)
  99.135.175.253 (21 Dec 2007)
  99.144.246.210 (20 Dec 2007)
  147.126.95.165 (15 Dec 2007)
  147.126.95.165 (15 Dec 2007)
  147.126.95.165 (15 Dec 2007)
  147.126.95.165 (10 Dec 2007)
  147.126.95.165 (17 Nov 2007)
  147.126.95.165 (10 Nov 2007)
  147.126.95.165 (3 Nov 2007)

The 147.* IP address edits were made from Loyola University Chicago, and the 99.* IP address edits were made from an AT&T account. All edits have been deleted by me and by User:Aitias and User:CardinalDan and User:Nate1481.

The list of seven styles has been on this page for over two years now. Please enter into a discussion here and stop your unilateral deletions. --David Broadfoot (talk) 14:12, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

---This is not related to the edit war, but I object to the term "styles" in the header of this section. Judo is not like karate which has multiple styles created by different people. I can't think of any authoritative reference that indicates there are styles of judo (except wikipedia type references which exist because this language has begun incorrectly creeping into modern English usage). I can't think of what term I would prefer to see, but something like "sub-specialization" or "judo evolution" or most likely "historical variations of judo". All of the listed arts evolved from judo, but are generally not considered styles of judo. More opinions?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.173.225.33 (talk) 20:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kodokan Judo Institute

Could someone please go to List_of_judo_organizations and check what I wrote about Kodokan Judo Institute - it probably either needs to be fleshed out as to its special nature, or moved down amongst the list of all the other national bodies. Thanks. --David Broadfoot (talk) 14:54, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of celebrity judoka - AfD

I started a page called List of celebrity judoka and now someone has nominated it for deletion. If you want it to remain, please comment on this article's entry on the Articles for deletion page.

Other similar pages include:

--David Broadfoot (talk) 23:04, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] U.S. Belt Ranks

The table listing U.S. Junior and Senior belt ranks may be somewhat confusing to the non-Judoka.

The columns list the Japanese name for the kyu rank, the USJF Senior and Junior belt colors, the USJA Senior and Junior belt colors, and the USJA Junior rank name. Unfortunately, the only English description of the rank in the whole table is the USJA Junior rank name, which is really only the correct rank description for USJA Junior ranks.

A non-Judoka is unlikely to be able to translate the Japanese rank names from from twelfth (Junikyu) to first (Ikkyu) into the correct English rank levels. If they have a friend who claims to be a "second degree brown belt," the non-Judoka is probably going to look at that table and wonder why a "second degree" wouldn't be wearing either a white or yellow belt, since those are the only belts on a row with the words "second degree" in them. The correct rank for a "second degree brown belt" would be Nikyu, but the only English words on that line are "Junior 11th Degree."

Sbabb (talk) 04:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kansetsu-waza permitted for anyone over 16?

The "Techniques & practics" section says that arm locks are allowed for competitors 16 and older.

It's been 18 years since my last Judo competition, but the rules at that time were that kansetsu-waza (arm locks) were restricted to competitors at least 16 years old who also held a sankyu (3rd brown belt) or higher rank.

I won a match via hansoku-make when I was a yonkyu (green belt) because my opponent (a white belt) attempted an arm lock on me. We were both over 16, but neither of us had sufficient rank for the technique to be legal. Have the rules changed? I searched around and was unable to find a comprehensive set of U.S. competition rules that mentioned the current requirements.

Sbabb (talk) 04:58, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

At least in Canada you are. I, a yellow belt, competed in a local tournament a couple of weeks ago and attempted a juji katame. Nobody mentioned anything.

66.46.13.221 (talk) 22:23, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] SOMBO?

I think that there is misprint in word SOMBO (should be sAmbo), and why the capital letters? VGmonster (talk) 16:47, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

It is not a misprint - it is a direct quote. The capitalised name is also arguably more correct than lower case because it is an acronym. SOMBO and SAMBO are both correct acronyms, as is CAMBO. --David Broadfoot (talk) 01:13, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree. (just i've never heard this version of pronounciation, as in russian it is always sAmbo). One note: SAMBO = SAMozashchita Bez Oruzhiya (as on sambo page). Should this be removed from talk page? --VGmonster (talk) 21:15, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Even FILA calls it SOMBO (see [7].) In that document, they make the note: "In the French language, Sombo is spelled Sambo." That may be entirely incorrect. Likewiese there are references on the net to "SOMBO" being the normal spelling in the USA. There are also references to differences between SAMBO and SOMBO. e.g. this post "what the school I found offers is Combat Sombo, not Combat Sambo. The school stresses the difference in terminology and also the usefulness of Combat Sombo for combat." Likewise here they are listed as if they are two different arts. There are references saying that SOMBO is a more wrestling-oriented from of SAMBO (in the US?) and that the US switched to the SOMBO spelling overall because of SAMBO being a bad slang word for blacks. My guess is that that it happened the other way around: the spelling was changed for racial reasons and because attached to the sub-style then using that term; and then later the new spelling was applied to all styles of SAMBO. Re deleting this thread: anything that properly discusses the article should remain on the talk page. --David Broadfoot (talk) 01:57, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] capitalization of technique names

In the list of judo techniques, only the first letter is capitalized, but the actual article names have each word capitalized, such as Seoi Nage. Some names contain hyphens, Kami-Shiho-Gatame. For the sake of consistency, should each word in the article name be capitalized, and should they contain hyphens in general? Shawnc (talk) 19:27, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that the technique names should be un-capitalised, un-hypehenated, and italicised. e.g. kami shiho gatame. Only the foreign words like "judo" and "aikido" that have entered the English language should not be italicised. As this issue is not just related to the contents of this article, it should be raised on the Marital Arts discussion area. A whole lot of articles need renaming. --David Broadfoot (talk) 05:43, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Macron ( ¯ ) in titles (eg Ō goshi vs O goshi)

WP:MOS-JP says "Macrons should be used in all cases outside of those specifically mentioned below." So unless there are objections, articles such as O goshi need to be renamed, as in Ō guruma. Shawnc (talk) 15:57, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Brazilian belts

There's a mistake on brasilian belts.The order is right but the gray belt is missing.The gray one is after the white one and before the blue one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.62.128.59 (talk) 22:05, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

The graphic for the Brazilian belts pertains to adults. Children's belt colour differences are explained in the text. --David from Downunder (talk) 00:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


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