Talk:John Kerr
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[edit] Sexuality
As noted WP:BLP does not allow for unsourced defamatory material on article or discussion pages. I haven't seen any credible sources for the material so far mentioned and I am removing this discussion for this talk page and that of Paul Keating's. I trust that this is acceptable to the reasonable editors participating in the discussion. --Jumbo 02:56, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
In case you weren't aware, you can't defame the dead. As for credible sources, Kerr's closest friend until their falling out was James 'Diamond Jim' McClelland. See 'The Australian for November 25, 2006', where Philip Adams writes: "A few years back I told you a story that Senator James McClelland had told me involving the then governor-general, Sir John Kerr. After a pleasant evening with other old mates in the ALP, an inebriated Sir John asked Senator James for a kiss. When Diamond Jim proffered a peck on the cheek, the G-G turned his face, puckered up and said: "No, I want a proper one." Jim’s account of the encounter on a Canberra lawn wasn’t some squalid kiss-and-tell, as he insisted their lips never touched. He told the story because, he believed, The Dismissal could only be fully understood if you factored in Kerr’s confused sexual identity. To Jim, the events of November ’75 were a sort of lovers’ tiff. That the G-G had fallen out of love with Gough and into love with Malcolm won’t find its way into learned tomes or PhDs on constitutional crises. However, if you believe Jim McClelland, as I do, then the coup d’etat might be regarded as a crime passionnel."
What Adams doesn't mention, and may not know, is what was discussed in gay legal circles at the time of The Dismissal by those who had known them as young men: that Kerr and McClelland's lifelong friendship had actually begun as an affair when they were university students. It gave McClelland's "Dear John" article in The Australian, which publicly revoked his friendship, a whole other dimension to those in the know. Engleham 16:32, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] POV and contradictory statements
The information under "Kerr as Governor-General" seems to contradict statements in Australian constitutional crisis of 1975. The Kerr article says that no Labor candidates were even proposed:
- Very unwisely, the Queensland Labor Party refused to submit the three names Peterson required, and Albert Field was appointed by the Queensland Parliament to fill the position.
while the Australian constitutional crisis of 1975 article states that Labor's proposed candidate was refused in favour of Field:
- On 3 September, Bjelke-Petersen refused the Labor Party's candidate as replacement Senator, Mal Colston, in favour of obscure french-polisher Albert Patrick Field, a Labor Party member but openly critical of the Whitlam government.
As well, the statement from this article (i.e. the Kerr one) is somewhat POV with the "Very unwisely, " bit. It also gets Bjelke-Petersen's name wrong in two different ways, though I've fixed that. --Saforrest 14:03, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
There is a comment in the current text to the effect "Kerr did not know Whitlam well". That is not correct. Both men were barristers at the New South Wales Bar and were in fact floor members on Level 10 Selborne Chambers. Kerr had a thorough personal and professional knowledge of Whitlam which makes the circumstances of the dismissal all the more interesting.
When you become a registered Wikipedian I will be happy to discuss this matter with you. Adam 13:18, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Apologies for not registering. That is why I didn't change the text. I attended a speech at a private function last year where a person commented how Kerr and Whitlam had attended an anniversary function for the chambers, which the speaker also attended, in about 1974. As barristers they were colleagues together in the 1950s before Whitlam focussed on politics. I raise the point because the impression is given in the text that Kerr and Whitlam were not well known to each other. The NSW Bar in the 1950s was a very small community and being on the same floor they would have had dealings with each other on a weekly basis during that period. To me what is interesting is that Whitlam apparently appointed Kerr as GG because he thought he knew him but gravely misjudged him if he thought Sir John was a political friend --Davrosjay 11:04, 17 September 2006 (UTC).
Whitlam and Kerr may well have known each other in the 1950s, before the ALP split and before Kerr went to the bench. I think the point is that by 1975 they no longer knew each other, but that Whitlam thought he knew Kerr's political views. No doubt the text could be changed to make the point clearer. (However, what you heard someone say can't be cited as a source.) Adam 11:13, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes - it is your observation that "by 1975 they no longer knew each other, but that Whitlam thought he knew Kerr's political views" that makes their earlier familiarity with each other interesting. The other comment I would make is that it is said that Kerr "met" HV Evatt at Fort Street High School. If he did it would only have been in circumstances where Evatt had returned in some capacity as a graduate because Evatt was 20 years older and an undergraduate at Sydney Uni the year Kerr was born.--Davrosjay 11:44, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
They met in 1931 when Kerr won the H V Evatt essay prize at Fort St, which Evatt had endowed in the 1920s. This could also be expanded in the text if you think the current wording is misleading. Adam 12:03, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Do we need so much detail on November 1975?
Wikipedia already has an article containing every detail of the constitutional crisis of 1975. Is there really a need to repeat the whole thing on Kerr's page? I feel that since this is a biography, it would be more appropriate to simply have a very brief discussion of the crisis and the dismissal (with a link to the main article of course), followed by the effect on Kerr's public and private life. Any objections?--EDH 10:42, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
The only reason Kerr is of any interest to readers is because of what he did on 11 November. It is impossible to form an opinion of Kerr's worth or place in history without knowing what he did and why he did it. That requires both some background and a detailed examination of his actions, and his motives. Please leave the article alone. Adam 10:45, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I concur with Edwinski. The section of the dismissal should be merged with the other page. If there is additional information here on Kerr's motives which is not presently on the other page, then I think that information should be moved to the other page instead.
If indeed "The only reason Kerr is of any interest to readers is because of what he did on 11 November," then this article will be quite short after material on the dismissal is moved. That's okay.
Bayle Shanks 07:10, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Cleanup required
There are some contradictions with 1975 Australian constitutional crisis and the later sections have severe POV issues. None of the statements are directly sourced. Thin Arthur 03:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if these are the same issues that Thin Arthur was referring to, but I noticed a few potential POV issues:
- On 2 November Fraser offered to pass the budget if Whitlam would agree to call an election before the middle of 1976, but Whitlam in turn quite properly rejected this. Under Westminster convention it is the Prime Minister who determines the timing of an election and not the Leader of the Opposition.
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- If this is a constitutional crisis, then it seems as if whether it is "quite proper" to follow convention was in dispute at the time. Also, I am ignorant of these matters, but the article Loss of Supply indicates that it is the usual custom for blocking supply to force the resignation of the government. Wouldn't this mean that the applicability of "Westminster convention" could be disputed in this case?
- Whitlam for his part assumed with characteristic confidence that Kerr, acting in the established manner of all previous vice-regal representatives, was in full sympathy with the Government's position and would do nothing to act against him. [15] He therefore, quite correctly, made no effort to convince Kerr of the validity of his position and did not think to consult with him during the crisis.
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- Why is this decision being labeled as "quite correct"? The assumption that Kerr would not act against Whitlam turned out to be wrong, not correct. The only other interpretation I can think of would be that Kerr was not supposed to act. But it was not declared illegal when Kerr acted, right? If it was something that he was not "supposed" to do, then wouldn't at the very least the Austrailian Constitution have been amended after the fact to clarify this for the future? However, the section http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_constitutional_crisis_of_1975#Legacy suggests that this did not happen. So, it seems to me like no consensus was ever achieved as to whether or not Kerr was "supposed to" do what he did. Therefore, the second possible interpretation of the "quite correctly" also doesn't make any sense to me. Bayle Shanks 07:10, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
As commonly occurs in explosively controversial issues, there is a tendency for specal interests to supplant and/or rearrange the facts of the 1975 Dismissal. I strongly support removal of the detailed Dismissal exegesis from this Kerr article so that it can be integrated and cleaned up in the specific 1975 Australian constitutional crisis article. If this is not done decisively and soon by one of the article's more experienced editors, I will myself attempt to commence the integration. I suspect the Gough Whitlam article and maybe other related ones should be similarly pruned for consistency. Bjenks 03:24, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
- Have to laugh at those "quite correctly" inserts. Looks like an attempt to shift blame away from Whitlam by implying he was the hapless pawn of his enemies and he was bound by convention. In truth, he stuffed up his second term royally and was quite properly booted out by the people as soon as they got a chance to have a say.
- Bjenks, you have my support to tidy up this and other related articles. We don't want various different accounts of the same events. --Jumbo 20:17, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Many thanks for your support, Jumbo--I shall wear it at all times! I seriously agree that Wikipedia is no place to "maintain a (misplaced) rage" which belongs in the coffin of an ancient and badly managed election campaign (even if its architect is still breathing). In my youth I had dealings with a barrister named Kep Enderby who later featured in the Dismissal cockup as the Labor Attorney General. He was the man who went to Kerr seeking endorsement of an unsigned paper containing Whitlam's advice that the public service would function without supply by borrowing money from banks. Kerr (quite correctly under the tradition) said [my paraphrase] "I am obliged to endorse this advice and will do so when the PM affixes his signature and the date to it." Whitlam declined to sign the damning document, thus (in my book) squarely accepting all responsibility for Kerr's having to look elsewhere for advice. I'll have a go at straightening out the mess in the near future. --Bjenks 04:28, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'm certainly not saying that Kerr couldn't have handled things better. He really shouldn't have ambushed Whitlam like that, but it was his responsibility to sort things out when Parliament couldn't. But as Kerr notes, he had seere doubts about the legality of the advice he was being given on babks, and leaving it for the High Court to decide would have taken far too long. --Jumbo 04:43, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The following is a copy of what I've posed at Talk:Malcolm_Fraser#Dismissal_cleanup As previously mooted over several months on the John Kerr discussion page, we need to rationalise a group of articles dealing with the Australian Labor government's dismissal in 1975. The Malcolm Fraser article is the easiest one because of its relative brevity, but there is considerable duplication to be removed from the articles John Kerr, Gough Whitlam and Australian constitutional crisis of 1975, which will undoubtedly create controversy. However, someone has to make a start. Please, everyone, accept that this is an exercise in good faith and editorial balance, to make these articles better. Cheers -- Bjenks 18:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
