Talk:John Courtney (diplomat)

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[edit] Reflinks

Could somebody with greater understanding of these templates edit them to reflect the fact that the reference to the Shenzhen Daily is mediated by the Shanghai Zoom monitoring service, and that to the Harare Herald by AllAfrica Global Media? (And I think the quotation from the Shenzhen Daily is surplus to requirements: it isn't the most relevant part of the story). --Paularblaster 14:28, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Alternatively, make the reference direct to Shenzhen Daily, at <http://pdf.sznews.com/szdaily/2000/0126/32.htm>. --Paularblaster 14:31, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sanctions

{{help}} Relations have been rocky since 2002. The only reason Australia has an ambassador in Zimbabwe is that Mugabe withdrew from the Commonwealth after being suspended from its councils in 2003. The previous Australian ambassador made himself very unpopular with the regime (visiting beaten-up opposition leaders in hospital, etc.). In August 2007 Australia made its sanctions policy rather more personal, by expelling 8 adult Zimbabweans (in Australia on student visas) as the children of Mugabe supporters. Courtney was appointed ambassador at about the same time (and was formally received considerably later than initially anticipated). This kind of thing might add some valuable context, and show that this is not a run-of-the-mill appointment (and hence more notable) but I'm not the person to add it. Any experts? --Paularblaster 02:19, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid this isn't really what {{help}} is designed for. It attracts people with experience of Wikipedia, but not (usually) experts in Autralo-Zimbabwean relations. You might find help at the Reference desk or the talkpage of an appropriate WikiProject, such as Australia, international relations or Zimbabwe. Algebraist 03:53, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. --Paularblaster 07:38, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Is it finding references to the events that you describe that you need help with, Paularblaster? (I'm not an expert in Autralo-Zimbabwean relations). Alice.S 11:51, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

It's more a question of finding somebody who has the time to find the references :) --Paularblaster 12:44, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Courtney as a politician?

I believe Courtney and all diplomats are indeed politicians. To quote the Wikipedia entry politician, "A politician is an individual who is a formally recognized and active member of a government". Now I ask you, are diplomats formally recognized and active members of a government? I believe it is obvious and as such am going to revert back to previous sorting.--Thomas.macmillan 03:14, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

If you read down in politician, you will see that the category expressly excludes "bureaucrats", which by the Weberian definition at bureaucrat includes career diplomats (a form of civil servants).--Paularblaster 07:48, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I can understand why, in the US or Filipino context (where the Ambassadors are often changed after a new administration or executive branch is appointed and often as a reward for campaign help) or that of the third world (where after each coup they need reliable apparatchiks overseas) you might think that, Thomas.

The tradition in the stable democracies of the Commonwealth such as Canada, Australia, Singapore, etc, is entirely different. There, Ambassadors are regarded as representative of the Head of State (often, the Queen) and the nation as a whole, rather than any ephemeral version of the government of the day. In these states neither a Police Chief nor an Ambassador nor the local dogcatcher are regarded as politicians or part of the government. If the category definition for "Australian Politician" does not reflect the realities that Paularblaster or I have described, then it needs to be changed. Could you do that, please, Thomas? Alice.S 11:47, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

It seems that at the absolute least, it is due for a biography stub. I will discuss the issue further.--Thomas.macmillan 15:00, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

A proposal I warmly second. But really we need a diplomat category, if not a diplomats project: they're tremendously important, and recent discussions at WP:BIO, AfD, and elsewhere indicate that their notability and distinctiveness as an occupational class is rather under-appreciated. --Paularblaster 15:20, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

• A {{diplomacy-stub}} was approved some time ago; would that help any? Her Pegship (tis herself) 19:07, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
• Ideally, they'd get <country>-gov-bio-stub. But that doesn't exist for many countries at present, and strangely, there's no top-level {{gov-bio-stub}}. Worth having as a container and catch-all, I think. Alai (talk) 03:15, 7 December 2007 (UTC)