Talk:Jade Empire

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VG To-do: edit  Peer review: Video game, Crash of the Titans, Xbox Live Arcade, List of Final Fantasy compilation albums, Metal Gear Solid, Shigeru Miyamoto, The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess‎, Myst III: Exile, Blade Runner, Zanac, Warhawk (PlayStation 3 game) Cleanup: List of characters from The King of Fighters, Hellgate: London, LeChuck, Destroy All Humans! Path of the Furon Featured article candidates: List of songs in Guitar Hero Encore: Rocks the 80s (FLC), Halo (series), List of Sega 32X games (FLC), Alleyway Good article nominations: Ayu Tsukimiya, Music of the Final Fantasy Tactics series, Super Smash Bros., Music of Final Fantasy XI, Day of Defeat: Source Article status review: GA Review – None; FA Review – The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, 3D Monster Maze; FT Review – Final Fantasy titles Articles for Deletion: Participate in video game related deletion discussions. Images: Add box-art and screenshots to articles. Make sure to include a valid non-free use rationale. Monitor the following related changes pages: changes to WP:VG and changes to this to-do list. Announce your new articles Sign up for the new VG Newsletter.

Contents 1 "To do" list 1.1 Sequel 1.2 Length (plot summary) 1.3 Chai Ka 1.4 Critisizms 1.5 Move "Characters" heading 1.6 Limited & Special Edition's content 1.7 Index of Reviews 2 PC release date 3 Production responsibilities & ownership 4 Philosphies 5 Reverted Edits

[edit] "To do" list

• The fact that there seems to be squabbling over an issue (i.e. 1.2) that could simply be implied as a subtext to the end of the main article shows implications of crappy editing-skill! Discuss.
• Made this to-do list as I feel most of the former discussion points were linked.
• Somebody please find on Bioware's site someone discussing the sequel. I would do it if I had time.

Done. Pausaniasx 14:39, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

• Also I have a copy of the original Xbox version, which it seems this article was designed for. Please write article from a encyclopedic neutral viewpoint as requested in WP:Guidelines, i.e. to include the PC version & possible upcoming sequel as well.
• Have added article-cleanup tag as a result.
• The section on player characters was in need of a rewrite. Have done so. Pausaniasx 23:27, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

MonstaPro:Talk 15:03, 14 May 2007 (UTC) - ("see below for in-depth discussions")

[edit] Sequel

The sentence talking about bioware executives strongly hinting the possiblity of a sequel has no references/sources to back it up.

I have found two links ([1] & [2]), one that refers to an interview with Dr. Ray Muzyka (one of the joint CEOs of Bioware) and the other heavily involving the same along with the other joint CEO Greg Zeschuk. Will link properly later. Enjoy! MonstaPro:Talk 19:37, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Those are old links. I have uncovered some more recent posts by BioWare staff that there are "no plans" for a sequel. Have made updates, with appropriate links. Pausaniasx 14:35, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Acualy in game informer it has been announced that bioware is working on a sequel and is to be released for the 360 and PS3 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.185.41.21 (talk) 17:26, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

---

===Allegations of racism=== I find the "examples of subtle and overt racism..." sentence in "Criticisms" to be rather odd. In fact, I found many of the racist accusations baseless. All of the human characters in the game (except for John Cleese's character, of course) seemed to be of rather obvious Asian descent to me. Simply because they do not have a Mandarin Chinese accent does not make BioWare guilty of yanking the China out of Chinese mythology. In fact, I imagine they would have only gotten MORE accusations of racism if they tried to go for some overt accent in their voice acting. Of course, I'm welcome to more clear and specific examples of racism being provided (which is really, I suppose, what I'm asking for) and thus I haven't changed anything at this point. ke kung-fu stars, but t

You can call Bioware and ask them yourself. The characters are not Asian; they are "residents of the Jade Empire". When a company expropriates the folklore and imagery of Asia, excises the Asian people, and crafts a game specifically catoring to a mainstream white American audience, which is then passed on to Asian-Americans and Asians abroad, that is clearly cultural imperialism. The characters are "Asian" in a superficial sense only--namely, they are yellow. Jade Empire is yellowface gaming.

Okay, obviously your issue has nothing to do with racism. You're soapboxing for some other bullshit entirely. You said it yourself, the game specifically caters to a mainstream white American audience, not a wackjob who thinks that making an entire game in Mandarin instead of half in a fake language would sell in the United States. I suppose KOTOR was racist against British people, too, right? For this misuse of British accents? Grow up.--76.209.58.121 01:08, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Jade Empire gels so many issues that I find it fascinating. You have the ignorance of yellowface (Wikipedia doesn't even have an article on yellowface, and it is still a widespread practice in North American media--especially video games), the tendency of Asian-American activists to protest media that exoticizes as opposed to media that excises their Asian-ness (it sometimes seems that they prefer their Asian video game characters as white as possible, which does place developers in a Catch-22 situation), and the endemic institutionalized racism in the North American video game industry (an industry dominated by white males). It is an odd situation when most people resign themselves to, "Well, it could be worse. It's only a little racist."

Then you have reluctance in the lowbrow gaming media to examine intellectual issues, coupled with reluctance in highbrow academia to examine video games. Discussion of intellectual issues in video games is unwelcome in both gaming and academic forums. Everyone seems to say, "It's only a video game."

Just look at the articles on Wikipedia. I don't think you'll find any discussion of intellectual issues in a video game article, apart from maybe some ranting by anime fanboys.

That said, I am happy with the edit. To cover the issues involved here to a satisfactory degree would go beyond the scope of a simple Jade Empire article, and moral/ethical/philosophical judgements are ultimately a matter of opinion. In most encyclopedias, academic opinion is cited (published articles by known scholars), but there are no such articles covering these issues. A simple "footnote" mentioning that Bioware did not hire Asian voice actors (Kim Mai Guest is a fixture of video game dubbing--her Asian ethnicity is coincidental), and that some people find Jade Empire offensive, is enough for me.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. "Entirely coincidental" or not, the fact that Kim is Asian makes that "footnote" what we in the tech business call "a lie". Take your head out of your ass and stop playing the race card over a fucking video game.--76.209.58.121 01:10, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

After some thought, I have edited the edit. You're right that "subtle and overt racism" is too broad, but on the other hand two pages of examples, which everyone would have an opinion on, would hardly be appropriate either. Especially since many people believe video games cannot be racist, short of a character stepping forward and saying, "I represent the company. We hate Asian people." Calling the game racist just isn't going to fly. I've replaced that with a simple explanation of why it can be seen as cultural imperialism (in my opinion it--by definition--is cultural imperialism, but these are also political labels that, I don't know, must get handed down from some liberal committee somewhere), and one example of specific criticism I've read re: racial stereotyping.

This edit made the mention of Tho Fan seem out of place. It read like a counterpoint before. I didn't think that was appropriate either, since Tho Fan, in my opinion, is extremely racist, but it at least read well. So, I have moved the mention of Tho Fan to Overview.

How is Tho Fan racist? It is a pseudo-Earth, it seems less inflammatory to use a conlang. And our source points out Final Fantasy as a style guide for Asians..... Final Fantasy characters are milk-white or blond haired for the most part. They are made in the Japanese anime style, witha conscious attempt to make them look more European, as that is considered attractive and exotic.

Our "source" uses a loading screen with a PC as a general guide to how characters look, when in fact Radiant Jen Zi is not the norm. The main characters may look lihat is because players have to immediately make that connection for the game to feel right. Most characters do not look like them. It is not racist, or cultural imperialism, especially considering that Asian companies in Hong Kong are a big inspiration for kung-fu movies. 74.132.129.230 10:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm just wondering: Are we also going to edit the pages on "The Record of Lodoss War" to indicate that "some" have criticised it for expropriating elements of european folklore and mythology and attempting to pass off clearly japanese archetypes as a representation of real europeans? The creators have employed no european voice actors whatsoever and the characters quite obviously sound like native speakers of japanese, instead of speaking it with british and german accents. Clearly a case of japanese cultural imperialism aimed against western Europe.

Western white males can't be discriminated against, silly. Only minorities get to be victims. It's in the Rules. :-p -Toptomcat 03:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

If we are going to talk about the racism in Jade Empire, surely we must acknowledge Sir Roderick von Fontlebottom the Magnificent Bastard. This character belittles the rich and vibrant culture of England. And "von" isn't even English, it's German. Clearly the developers at Bioware hold a seething and deep-rooted malicious hatred of the English people. I'm frankly disgusted. (Because you can never tell these days, that was sarcasm. Mostly.}

• I find this whole debate about racist allegations moot considering you only should include any comments such as the above from verifiable sources. I'm not quite sure either if it's a notable thing (e.g. Jade Empire has been mentioned in the news for being racist ) and it seems to me it's only an opinion held by some fans. I was very tempted on deleting this entire thread since the comments are offensive and it's just turned into a flame war (actually would anyone object to this thread being deleted?). --Rambutaan 00:22, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Length (plot summary)

For my part I find the plot summary to be a bit beleaguering. It goes into far too much detail to be a mere summary. It is currently more than a page in length and nowhere near completed. I think that perhaps a more concise version should be devised, split up into brief descriptions for each of the game's chapters

i agree. needs drastic shortening. im adding a cleanup tag. --Quiddity 04:40, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Not to mention that it is incomplete. A chapter-by-chapter detailing of the plot is unnecessary and would lead to enough pages resting within the article to create a small book from. 63.233.87.135 21:49, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

It is also worth mentioning that as it is now, the main protagonist that the player is tasked with controlled is referred to as "Furious Ming" as if that is the end all, be all name for the character when it clearly is not, it is merely the name assigned to one of the available character choices when one begins a new game. Whoever takes on the task of revising the story will have to use a creative method of not directly naming the central protagonist of the story, since it will differ for every player. 63.233.106.163 23:15, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it needs shortening. Also, i would suggest that a extra seccion be added for the followers. This way, more can be said about them, while keeping the summarized plot simple. (Guille2015 15:48, 26 April 2006 (UTC))

How about putting the in-game chapter summary thing (you know, "Chapter 1: Wherein a Master foretells of doom, a rival challenges for station, and the past haunts the future.") and a despcription of what happens after it?

---

I don’t know how much editing has been done since this discussion was started but the article still seems overly focused on the criticisms. Also the above allegations of it being an example of “yellow face” gaming because the took Chinese myth but created a fantasy world and culture is absurd, that’s just a device of fantasy writing Tolkien did it with lord of the rings, as did the creators of fable and To Human.

Leon Evelake

I don't agree. The article has a section on critisims but I would not go so far as to say that the article focuses on them too heavily nor that that they are the main focus of the article as a whole. Plenty of articles about creative and some non-creative work have a section dedicated to critisisms. However, people resonding to the critisims in a negative way has inflated the section to the point of double talk. As an example (The frame rate is quite slow, but it's pretty fast) is what the section now resembles. The earlier versions simply stated the facts that section of the article was addressing, the critisisms, and where relevant it noted some counter measures taken by the designers (i.e the loading screen problem, so mentioned due to the same issue with Knights of the Old Republic.)

I do not agree either: criticisms should be very useful! Specially where the design-aspect of game-development is concerned! Where possible try to find some references to avoid it sounding like WP:Original research, as it could be deleted regardless. However writing from in-game content is a very good idea, and would mean there is still spoiler-based content in the article. _> MonstaPro:Talk 15:56, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Also removed:

The name of this student is determined by your choice of character at the beginning of the game. The sex of the character the player chooses affects the romance options, (see the 'Romance' section) but the storyline remains the same. The player can decide to follow the path of the Open Palm or Closed Fist as the game progresses, but no matter which path is chosen throughout the game the player may choose from the Open Palm or Closed Fist ending at the game's conclusion.

as I felt it was irrelevant and previously explained. _> MonstaPro:Talk 16:30, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chai Ka

Chai Ka is refered to as a monster in the plot seccion. Although tecnically correct. In the Jade Empire there are no "Monsters". Chai Ka is a Demon. More specifically a demon Guardian. Ya Zhen, which is another Character is not mentioned in the plot. I think I'll go ahead and change the Demon part. (Guille2015 15:46, 26 April 2006 (UTC))

Bear in mind all the info on characters is now in the list of characters article. _> MonstaPro:Talk 16:45, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Critisizms

The Sections seems to have become one long paragraph of double-talk. It is a sections for critisims, not for counter critisims.

  Agreed. In particular that statement that it would be logical
  to use English speaking actors. George Takei, Ming Na Wen, Kim
  Mae Guest (who was actually in the game), Michelle Yeoh, while
  all of asian extraction do speak English. There many other asian
  actors that speak fluent English. As for the comment alluding to 
  Bioware seeking out famous Western actors, only John Cleese 
  really qualifies in that category and do we really know that this
  is what Bioware was after?

Removed reference to "ethnocentrism" as the concept was incorrectly used.

I agree and I removed the comment which doesn't make sense. There is obviously a lot of Asians who speak English and so there is no reason why they couldn't have been hired. I'm not commenting on the debate, simply pointing out it doesn't make sense to say Bioware couldn't use Asian voice actors because they game was in English Nil Einne 14:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

the section as a whole should be much more technical, as it will appear to be WP:Original Research and warrant grounds for deletion otherwise. _> MonstaPro:Talk 15:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move "Characters" heading

• I would like to suggest moving the characters heading and content to between Philosophies and Plot. Just look at other games for examples Halo for instance or Final Fantasy X (chosen for FA status), both have the characters heading preceding the plot. I'd make this change but I'd like to ensure others agree before I do.
• Also, when I first opened the article, I was unable to find the section and believed it didn't exist until I searched specifically for a character I wanted info on. I know this is mostly my fault, but having headings in a common order helps people find what they want.Camann 21:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I have no problems with that. --Rambutaan 21:37, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

It appears someone has put it back... _> MonstaPro:Talk 15:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Apologies, mis-understood what you meant! _> MonstaPro:Talk 16:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Also: 1)I Suggest move the characters' sections (inc. Romances details, i.e. which PC can romance which NPC) to list of characters article if they are in need of high-detail descriptions (I think not)

& 2) (in this article) link the endings & followers' info together, possibly in one big spoilers section. _> MonstaPro:Talk 16:45, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Created a Lotus Assassin Entry, any nipping and tucking that is required would be appreciated BH Ramsay 00:18, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I belive this should be placed into the List of characters article along with the Spirit Monks and Imperial Soldiers. Will complete. _> MonstaPro:Talk 16:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Plus the article was named badly in the first place; surely it should be "Lotus Assassins"? _> MonstaPro:Talk 17:01, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Have noticed the above entry on the assassins mentions "the last of the spirit monks", i.e. the role of the PC in the game. Suggest implement this into the characters article as well... _> MonstaPro:Talk 17:03, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Limited & Special Edition's content

Shouldn't discussing the additional content in the differing versions from that on the first Xbox (with the blue cover) count as spoilers? MonstaPro:Talk 17:57, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Index of Reviews

Suggest make a list solely of reviews with percentage/grade gained, name of site & name of reviewer. _> MonstaPro:Talk 13:20, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] PC release date

And more info can be found here. http://www.gamestop.com/product.asp?product_id=646813 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.60.163.211 (talk) 13:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Production responsibilities & ownership

Why are there two developers listed? I was under the impression that JE had only one, & it's the same for each format... MonstaPro:Talk 19:37, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Philosphies

The section on the philosphies is based on the in game description. I think we should point out that despite the official description, the closed fist path involves being blatantly evil. John Kingston 213.83.99.5 08:53, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

That's fine, but I think to show further credibility you should also link a review that mentions that. IIRC there does exist one (perhaps the Gamespy review?) that actually makes the same comment. Could be a place to start looking :) --Rambutaan 01:26, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Old text is supposed to go at the bottom...apologies for any confusion caused _> MonstaPro:Talk:Contrib. 22:03, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Plus CF being all about "being blatantly evil" is your opinion & not encyclopedic... _> MonstaPro:Talk:Contrib. 22:05, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

P.P.S. the phrase can stay in the article: I've edited it so it doesn't look blatantly out of place _> MonstaPro:Talk:Contrib. 22:20, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I've played the game, and I think the section on philosophies does constitute original research as marked, and should be either removed or condensed. I am considering an edit that achieves this. Pausaniasx 23:27, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm offering a major edit of the philosophies section. In my opinion, it's not really appropriate for Wikipedia to include specific gameplay storylines (without labeling them as such and without a spoilers warning) as examples for the in-game philosophies. I think it is best to remain a little bit vaguer here and just state general examples in the way Open Palmers could be evil and Closed Fisters could be good (which, in practice, is only rarely in the game). This way we can just cite the BioWare site itself instead of being tagged original research. I'd be willing to discuss this further. Pausaniasx 00:05, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reverted Edits

This is a list of miscellaneous edits not fitting in the above categories that were reverted.

Tony Sidaway removed the Spoiler tag on July 9. However, the romance section contains significant spoilers without any warning. It is appropriate to have one in my opinion. I have moved the spoiler tag to just above the Romance section. Pausaniasx 18:05, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I've restored the title "Character histories" to emphasize that there are plot elements. We probably don't need a spoiler tag in there with the name change. --Tony Sidaway 18:30, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I guess we're headed for a disagreement, but since it's a small issue I'll just state my case here without further reverts. First of all, I don't feel the heading "Character Histories" is appropriate. "History" implies some sort of back story, which explicitly isn't provided for the player characters in Jade Empire. The section on player characters has nothing to do with "histories"---it's merely a description of the models available to the player at the beginning of the game. Second, the Romance subset section is not really a "history"---it's a description of what happens in the game, and using the word "history" to describe in-game events while writing about the same game is not common usage as far as I'm aware. Finally, regarding the spoiler tag, I do feel it is necessary because the page contains nothing that is a spoiler until that very moment, when all at once we're given away several key plot details (something that happens quite often and unnecessarily throughout this article, by the way). It's a jarring transition and one that deserves a spoiler tag. At the very least, the Romance subsection should be moved into the Plot section. Pausaniasx 22:44, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Encyclopedias should not contain spoiler warnings. This is a childish fan-boy expression which has no place in a serious encyclopedia which is, after all, what Wikipedia proports to be. Go ahead and look on he Wiki entry for any major work of fiction and see how many contain the words "spoiler warning." Does Catcher in the Rye have one? Wuthering Heights? The Godfather? Grow up and keep this nonsense to fanpages about video games.