Talk:J. D. Tippit

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Contents 1 J.D./Jefferson Davis 2 Assassination 3 Page overhaul 4 Markham testimony 5 Domingo Benavides testimony 6 Poe testimony 7 The Man, Scoggins, and source credibility 8 Picture 9 Mark Lane and Helen Markham 10 Police lineups 11 Dallas Police dispatcher 12 Seconds 13 Minimise 14 Cartridge shell argument 15 Taxi drop-off time

[edit] J.D./Jefferson Davis

I, like everyone else, have always thought that JD stood for Jefferson Davis, but I just learned via Dale Myers book that JD doesn't stand for anything at all. Myers quotes JD's brother Wayne Tippit as saying "It was just an initial name". (page 588) and, well, the guy's brother is a pretty authoritative source. Gamaliel 09:25, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I looked him up in the 1930 Census (Red River County, Texas) and he is listed there as "Jd" while his brother is listed as "Donald R.". Gamaliel 10:40, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• So this guy has no first name? Just the initials "J.D."?? Wolfdog 22:02, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Assassination

Like all aspects of the Kennedy assassination, the circumstances surrounding the shooting of Officer Tippit has been questioned by conspiracy believers. Many assassination books discuss the Tippit shooting in limited detail. The most comprehensive authoritative volume, and the only book dedicated exclusively to the Tippit shooting and its aftermath, is Dale K. Myers' With Malice: Lee Harvey Oswald and the Murder of Officer J.D. Tippit. Myers' book discusses the conspiracy theories surrounding Tippit's murder and documents the true facts. While other conspiracy-oriented books provide alternative viewpoints, none are as complete and well-documented as With Malice. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.60.110.76 (talk • contribs) .

David Belin of the Warren and Rockefeller Commission is fond of saying, "Lee Harvey Oswald killed policeman Tippit. Since the case against Oswald for the Tippit slaying is so strong, it follows that Oswald also shot the President." The case against Oswald in the Tippit murder is as weak as the case against him in the JFK assassination. The most important evidence showing that Seymour and another one of the assassination team shot Tippit is the fact that six witnesses, ignored by the Warren Commission, saw two men shoot Tippit. One of them resembled Oswald. They ran away from the scene in opposite directions. Seymour ran toward the Texas Theater, throwing the planted shells up in the air so that witnesses would see and recover them. (This act would convince most people that Oswald did not shoot Tippit.) The other assassin ran in the opposite direction. There is some indication that Seymour entered the theater in a manner to draw attention and then left before the Oswald arrest. While the shells recovered were found to match Oswald's pistol, none of the bullets recovered from Tippit's body matched. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.1.5.244 (talk • contribs) .

Wow, now we're just making stuff up. Gamaliel 08:33, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

This is the Internet. That's what we do here. What did these guys do before the Net came along? — 71.56.180.178 13:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Page overhaul

Hi. I am responsible for the overhaul of this page. I have tried to lay out both the Warren Commission's version of Tippit's murder as well as the criticism of the Commission in a fair and accurate manner. I welcome you comments. Joegoodfriend 23:09, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I took out the statement of the Dallas DA because it may give his opinion undue weight, as he never had a chance to really develop a case and his opinion may have changed as the investigation continued. I also linked this article to the "theories" article and to LHO for clarity. I also took out language like "substantial" in various parts because they usually violate NPOV. Otherwise, I don't have much problem with what was added. Although some other editors may want to challenge the books as reliable sources. I won't get into that, I'm sure the publisher put these works through some sort of fact checking process before putting the information out. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 23:39, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Markham testimony

I have removed the article's claim that:

Helen Markham however stated repeatedly in her testimony to the Commission that she could not identify anyone in the police lineup she was shown that included Oswald. Warren Commission Hearings Vol. III, p.310-1

From her testimony to the Warren Commission, vol. III, p. 311:

Mr. Ball: Did you recognize the man from his clothing or from his face?

Mrs. Markham: Mostly from his face.

Mr. Ball: Were you sure it was the same man you had seen before?

Mrs. Markham: I am sure.

and again, vol. III, p. 318:

Mr. Ball: Well, the man that you identified as the number 2 man in the lineup in the police station, you identified him as the man you had seen shoot Officer Tippit?

Mrs. Markham: Yes, I did.

Mr. Ball: Did you identify him because of his clothing that he had on at that time in the lineup.

Mrs. Markham: Just like I told you. I mostly looked at his face, his eyes, and his clothing, too.

— Walloon 23:52, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I have to object to the phrase "Contrary to twelve other witnesses who saw a single individual either shooting Tippit or fleeing the scene". Many of these witnesses merely saw Oswald running somewhere between the murder scene and the theater. Joegoodfriend 00:11, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

The pages you cite also do not contain the quotes you cite. Where did you get them? Here's an actual quote:

Ball: Did you recognize anyone in the lineup?

Markham: No, sir.

Ball: You did not? Did you see anybody? I have asked you that question before-did you recognize anybody from their face?

Markham: From their face, no.

Joegoodfriend 00:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Domingo Benavides testimony

I have removed the article's claim that:

The Commission incorrectly concluded that Domingo Benavides called police from Tippit’s radio immediately after the killing. Benavides had testified that he did not approach the car "for a few minutes" after the shooting, (Warren Commission Hearings Vol. VI, p.448) and even then he was unable to use the radio.

From his testimony to the Warren Commission:

Mr. Benavides: I saw him as he was falling. The door was about half way open, and he was right in front of the door, and just about in front of the fender. I would say he was between the door and the front headlight, about middleway when he started to fall. . . .

Mr. Belin: Then what did you do?

Mr. Benavides: Then I don't know if I opened the car door back further than what it was or not, but anyway, I went in and pulled the radio and I mashed the button and told them that an officer had been shot, and I didn't get an answer, so I said it again, and this guy asked me whereabouts all of a sudden, and I said, on 10th Street. I couldn't remember where it was at at the time. So I looked up and I seen this number and I said 410 East 10th Street.

— Walloon 00:33, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I have added a modified version of Benavides and Bowley's statements. Joegoodfriend 01:43, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Poe testimony

I have removed the article's claim that:

There is also evidence to indicate that the cartridge shells recovered from the scene may not have been those subsequently entered into evidence. Two of the shells recovered at the scene were given to police officer J.M. Poe, who marked them with his initials. (Warren Commission Hearings Vol. VII, p.69) However, no initials were found on the shells later produced by the police.(Warren Commission Hearings Vol. XXIV, p.131-5.)

Officer Poe specifically testified he was not sure whether he initialed the cartridges or not. From his testimony to the Warren Commission, vol. VII, p. 69:

Mr. Ball: Now, I have here a package which has been marked "Q"--FBI lab. Q-74 to Q-77. Would you look those over and see if there is any identification on there by you to indicate that those were the hulls given to you by Benavides?

Mr. Poe: I want to say these two are mine, but I couldn't swear to it.

Mr. Ball: Did you make a mark?

Mr. Poe: I can't swear to it; no, sir.

— Walloon 01:40, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Modified version of the paragraph restored indicating that Poe merely believed he had marked the shells. Poe was adamant on all other occasions that he had marked them with his initials.Joegoodfriend 01:57, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Man, Scoggins, and source credibility

1. I use the term "the man" up to the point in the narration where Oswald is identified because that is precisely the convention used in the Warren Report.

2. Scoggins did not see the shooting.

3. Meagher, Summers and Hurt are researchers whose works have been published and reprinted for decades. Their works are well-regarded in the research community, and their verifiability is not any more in question than the dozens of websites cited as sources in all the JFK assassination related pages on wikipedia. Joegoodfriend 16:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I didn't add the tags, but was aware that their might be an issue with them. I am not sure if we are asking to verify the credibility of the research, but the credibility of the claim. Personally, I was aware of Summers and Hurt, but I've never heard of Meagher. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 17:39, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Accessories After the Fact By Meagher is one of the best-regarded books on the subject from the 1960's. It deals almost entirely with comparisons the WC's conclusions with the evidence and testimony before it. As for Oswald's walking speed, Meagher simply calculated it by taking the times of his locations from the WR and measuring the distance between those locations.

Frankly, I consider marking these sources with the credibility tag to be a cheap shot, as there are dozens of web sites and dubious sources used as cites on the various JFK articles on wikipedia, and not one of them has a credibility tag.Joegoodfriend 17:54, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

With all the books and research I've seen and read on this subject, I guess one just slipped through the cracks. Although, I was aware of the issue some raised about the time it would take from Oswald's boarding house to Tippit's murder scene, I never knew that Meagher was the originator of the theory. Well, that's why I come to Wikipedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ramsquire (talk • contribs) 18:02, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Picture

We need a picture of the officer, So this arcticle could be better.Poke mudkip 21:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mark Lane and Helen Markham

Mark Lane was notoriously manipulative in his telephone conversation with witness Helen Markham. He repeatedly tried to get her to say that Tippit's killer was "short, heavy, and with bushy hair." A transcript from Lane's own book. Mrs. Markham identified Tippit's killer as Oswald at the police lineup on Nov. 22, 1963, the day of the assassination, she identified Tippit's killer as Oswald in her telephone conversation with Mark Lane on March 2, 1964, and she identified Tippit's killer as Oswald in her Warren Commission testimony on March 26, 1964. — Walloon 01:03, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I would characterize Markham's statements in a different way than you would. She was prompted repeatedly to identify Oswald as she continued to make vague, inconsistent and nonsensical statments. However, honestly, I have to admit you're right about Lane. If you want to cut the Lane stuff out, I won't fight it. Thanks for opening this in talk before making changes. Joegoodfriend 01:13, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the assessment of Mrs. Markham's reliability. If she were my witness, I'd be pulling my hair out. — Walloon 01:18, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Police lineups

"Oswald was also shown to witnesses in police lineups that otherwise consisted entirely of teenage boys."

Here are the teenage boys from Oswald's police lineups at 4:35 and 6:30 p.m. on November 22, 1963, the first two of his four lineups. The other men in his third lineup, at 7:55 p.m. that day, were Richard Walter Borchgardt (born 30 May 1940), Ellis Carl Brazel (born 24 Nov 1941), and jail clerk Don Ables. The other men in Oswald's fourth and last lineup, at 2:55 p.m. on November 23, were John Thurman Horn (born 6 November 1945), David Knapp, 18, and Daniel Lujan (born 15 February 1937). — Walloon 05:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Interesting, you have done a good job on this research. Perhaps the lineups were not as "unfair" as some authors have suggested. Joegoodfriend 03:20, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dallas Police dispatcher

"The original police transcript in the National Archives also lists the time of transmission as 1:10 PM. Reference: Armstrong, John, Harvey, Lee and Tippit: A New Look at the Tippit Shooting, Probe Magazine, Vol. 5, No.2."

Not true. Verbal time stamps made by the Dallas Police dispatcher show that the first report of the Tippit shooting was transmitted over Channel 1 some time between 1:16 and 1:19 p.m. (Click on the speaker icon at the bottom right of each highlighted section to hear the recording.) Specifically, the transmission by T.F. Bowley from the site of Tippit's shooting begins 1 minute 41 seconds after the 1:16 time stamp. The original transcript also reports that the first report of the Tippit shooting was transmitted some time after the 1:16 time stamp. — Walloon 05:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I have found several references to the transcript with the 1:10 timestamp, but I haven't seen the actual copy. Suffice to say that if it exists, it contradicts the evidence above. I also think there is the possibility that police tampered with the transcripts. However, under the circumstances, I have no objection to the change. Joegoodfriend 15:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

When you click on the words "original transcript" above, you are seeing the "actual copy" in the National Archives. — Walloon 17:33, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

My reference does not of course refer to that copy, but to a different version of the same document whose existence, alas, I cannot document with a hard copy. PS-I think all your recent edits to the page have been fine.Joegoodfriend 19:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! I'm a law student, with a journalism background, and I'm trying to put both to use when editing here, e.g., standards of proof, rules of evidence. — Walloon 04:10, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Seconds

"17 minutes and 45 minutes" seems to be a mistake for "17 minutes and 45 seconds". — 86.139.209.191 03:58, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Minimise

Murray Jackson seems to be trying to minimise the extent to which his friend was behaving provocatively with Tippit's own gun. All witnesses say that Tippit's gun was completely out of its holster. This is probably the explanation of the sudden explosion of violence after the previous friendly conversation between the two. See http://www.jdtippit.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.158.205.24 (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

From the testimony of Helen Markham:

Mr. DULLES. [Oswald] stepped back two steps from the car?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Just stepped back twice. Mr. Tippit, of course, the policeman — I didn't know it was Mr. Tippit —

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mrs. MARKHAM. He calmly opened the door. He calmly crawled out like he wasn't angry.

Mr. DULLES. Did he have a weapon in his hands?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't see one.

Who is Murray Jackson? — Walloon 13:20, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Murray J. Jackson was a friend a Tippit's and a policeman. M.J.Jackson is referred to in the web-site mentioned by

212.158.205.24 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 09:46, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Benavides said "The gun was in his hand." See Warren Commission, Vol.6, page 449. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 10:05, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

See Warren Commission, Vol.23, page 817. This shows that Benavides was much closer to Tippit than

Mrs. Markham was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 10:34, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

See Warren Commission, Chap.4, page 169. "Apparently he had reached for his gun;

it lay beneath him outside of the holster." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.139.212.139 (talk) 14:20, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cartridge shell argument

Suggest that the two paragraphs that begin with "presence of the cartridge shells" be deleted. They are argumentative, unencyclopediac, not supported by citation, and have only the most tenuous relationship to a biography of Tippit. Joegoodfriend (talk) 17:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I've reverted it. I placed the tags in the hope that some citations would be forthcoming. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 17:59, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Could someone explain this passage currently in the article:

Further[,] the appearance of cartridge shells at the crime scene raises question[s] for some because, according to Officer Hill, who took possession of Oswald's revolver at his arrest, the gun's six chambers were fully loaded with unspent cartiridges and that Oswald had no loose ammunition on his person.

What questions does it raise? Oswald was arrested about a half hour after the shooting of Office Tippit. Is that passage implying that Oswald didn't have time to reload his pistol in a half hour? — Walloon 04:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Taxi drop-off time

"However, the accuracy of Roberts' estimate can be confirmed by the fact that Oswald had been dropped off by cab three blocks away from his rooming house at 12:57 p.m. (Myers, With Malice, p.380.)"

I have removed this inaccurate claim from the footnote about Earlene Roberts' estimate of Oswald's arrival at his rooming house. It is not an established "fact" that Oswald had been dropped off at 12:57 p.m. The only witness to Oswald's being dropped off was the cab driver, William Whaley, who recorded the journey in his log as occurring between 12:30 and 12:45 p.m. Whaley later testified that he routinely rounded off journeys to the nearest quarter-hour: "Now that could have been 10 minutes off in each direction because I didn't use a watch, I just guess, in other words, all my trips are marked about 15 minutes each." — Walloon (talk) 15:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

It is true that the word "fact" may be out of order. It is with irony that I quote the Warren Report, but here goes, "The Greyhound Bus Station at Lamar and Jackson Streets, where Oswald entered Whaley's cab, is three to four short blocks south of Lamar and Elm. If Oswald left the bus at 12:44 p.m. and walked directly to the terminal, he would have entered the cab at 12:47 or 12:48 p.m. If the cab ride was approximately 6 minutes, as was the reconstructed ride, he would have reached his destination at approximately 12:54 p.m. If he was discharged at Neely and Beckley and walked directly to his roominghouse, he would have arrived there about 12:59 to 1 p.m. From the 500 block of North Beckley, the walk would be a few minutes longer, but in either event he would have been in the roominghouse at about 1 p.m. This is the approximate time he entered the roominghouse, according to Earlene Roberts, the housekeeper there. (See Commission Exhibit No. 1119-A, p. 158.)"

I could rewrite the footnote using the above as 1:00pm being "the Warren Commission's estimate." What do your think? Joegoodfriend (talk) 02:10, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

If you do, use "12:59 to 1:00 p.m." as the Warren Commission wrote. However, Vincent Bulgiosi makes a good argument that the WC was three minutes off on the taxi's departure time from the Greyhound Station:

Warren Commission assistant counsel, with a stopwatch, reconstructed with Whaley the route he took with Oswald, leaving the cabstand at the Greyhound bus depot around 12:48 p.m., most likely several minutes later than Oswald actually left there. I say that not only because Oswald would have probably been walking at a fast pace from the time he left the Depository, but most importantly because the most reasonable assumption is that Whaley put 12:30–12:45 p.m. on his trip ticket because he left at some time prior to 12:45 p.m., making the Warren Commission estimate of a 12:48 p.m. departure from the bus depot at least three minutes too late. It makes little sense that if Whaley left the depot at 12:48, he would record his departure time as being between 12:30 and 12:45 p.m.

You could also add that the HSCA, in its reconstruction of the event, concluded Oswald arrived at “approximately 12:55 P.M.” (HSCA Record 180-10115-10004, September 19, 1977, p. 2). — Walloon (talk) 04:58, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Impatient me just added both estimated times of arrival to the footnote. — Walloon (talk) 06:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

This change has my endorsement. Joegoodfriend (talk) 18:17, 8 April 2008 (UTC)