Talk:It's Grim Up North

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	It's Grim Up North has been listed as one of the Arts good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
April 26, 2006 Good article nominee Listed

This article is part of WikiProject The KLF, an attempt to improve and expand coverage of The KLF and related topics. Talk to us. KLF-related Articles in need of attention. This article is also within the scope of WikiProject Songs, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to songs on Wikipedia.

To-do list for It's Grim Up North:

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Expand 'context' and lead section. Expand 'composition' section (for example, the song is not self-referential, and during the rendition of Jerusalem it features the high-pitched rasping sound from early JAMs work such as "All You Need Is Love" and "The Queen and I"). Grey - Drummond's liking of the colour mentioned in 45, and he manufactured pots of paint. Any more reviews? Origins of phrase and the north-south divide (see talk) Add inline citations to "Composition" section: I don't know if that will be possible, as this piece does seem to be Vinoir simply describing the technical composition as the record plays out, albeit with a quote from the sleevenotes (citable) and lyrics (citable).

Contents 1 More to come 2 Song samples 3 Grey vinyl 4 Good Article 5 CB Mike 6 "The North has risen again" 7 Phonebox 8 "Leigh" 9 Here I come again 10 Industrial towns

[edit] More to come

Will happily do a bit more to this soon --Vinoir 19:16, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Song samples

Clips of "IGUN" and "Jerusalem on the Moors" would be good. --kingboyk 07:25, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

The whistle samples used are referred to as "steam train whistles", when in fact they are the whistles used by factories to signal the end of the working day - and thus symbolic of the closing of the factories in the north at that point in time, rises in unemployment, and grimness in general. --User:AndrewDucker 08:56, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Grey vinyl

If this is some kind of special vinyl, (partly recycled, has special properties, etc) it needs a link or inline explanation. If it's just the color used I suggest "grey coloured vinyl" instead. Did a lot of stuff come out in that color? I don't have the physical single so don't know... (A little bird hooked me up with a version of the track... mmm good stuff) ++Lar: t/c 12:46, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Cough, couldn't possibly condone that! Anyway... "grey coloured vinyl", yes. Over here we omit the "coloured" (e.g. the "red vinyl" release of 1962-1966) or at least vinyl buffs do! I'll amend for clarity now. Thanks for the headsup. --kingboyk 21:27, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Whoops... did a lot of stuff come out in that colour? Most definitely not. Red, blue or green vinyl is quite common, as are picture discs. Grey vinyl is quite unusual. It symbolises the grey, dreary, overcast skies of the "grim" North I do believe. --kingboyk 21:28, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Well done. I'd enhance the ref you linked from "grey coloured viny;" to mention that fact, it's significant. Especially if you could find a further ref on how rare that color choice is (I have, somewhere, an old Grand Funk Railroad We're an American Band LP on clear yellow vinyl, the only non black LP in my entire collection I think so I'm not as in tune with color usage as you are )++Lar: t/c 22:35, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article

And then there were two... excellent! I think this is what "Good Articles" are all about. It's a nice read, it has some sources and media, but it's not quite at Featured Status and it's not particularly long. --kingboyk 15:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] CB Mike

I dab'ed this but I was guessing that Citizen's Band radio was the thing meant. Anyone have a source? ++Lar: t/c 16:08, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

What kind of source? He holds it in the video and held it on ToTP. (It might be a PA mic, or a CB wired up for PA, but I think CB is close enough). --kingboyk 16:35, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Er, why a source from the UK National Archives documenting what model and brand of radio it came from, a photocopy of the shop receipt and a video of him buying it, and a notarised statement from all the band members that it was used that way, of course! ... er, seriously now ... Your eyes are better than mine, so that works for me. I just wasn't sure. Following the original link led to some rather large disambig page so I was nervous. ++Lar: t/c 18:14, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Lol. OK. I'm pretty sure it was a Uniden 200 and it was purchased from Currys in 1986 :P lol. Hey, Lar: At some point we are going to need a pair of neutral non-British eyes to look over The KLF article to ensure that we have explained any British slang and that the article is intelligible to a non-afficianado. Assuming that by then you haven't been K-infected, would you be up for said task? --kingboyk 18:25, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm probably not the best candidate for that because I'm anglophile... I let UKish speech mannerisms slip in to my verbiage, as well as knowing more UK slang than the average seppo. I'd give it a go though, I guess, if you can't find some other bloke. I've some ideas of favours I could call in to find folk, too. However, are you talking about reviewing the entire ouvre of KLF articles? That's rather a lot. Or just the main one? ++Lar: t/c 18:35, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Just the main one. An unconverted redneck yankee American gentleman or gentlewoman might be best! --kingboyk 18:38, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Right, then, I've taken a pass. Didn't spot much. Said I took one on the talk page. I'll see who I can scare up. Interesting read (although I'd read it all before)... ++Lar: t/c 19:06, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks mate. It can wait for now though, as we're not finished yet :) --kingboyk 19:17, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "The North has risen again"

Lyrics from the (excellent) Who Killed The JAMs? track "Prestwich Prophet's Grin". --kingboyk 08:32, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Phonebox

Doesn't Jimmy or someone chant the lines in a rain-swept phonebox ? - max rspct leave a message 21:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

In the video I think it's just Bill, and it's a rain-swept layby. I suppose I'll have to watch the vid now to give you an authorative answer. Just a moment! --kingboyk 09:01, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

No phonebox, and Jimmy plays the enigmatic (silent) rock star (as usual). --kingboyk 09:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Leigh"

It's been months, but something is nagging at me about the lyrics. What actually comes after "Ormskirk, Accrington, Stanley..." in the third verse?

When I did my initial search, my results all said it was "Ormskirk, Accrington, Stanley, and Leigh"; however, the first verse has "Sale, Salford, Southport, Leigh". As a result I just left it out when I made the list, but this breaks the tempo and rhyming of the lyrics. All the while, I kept wondering why it would be in there twice... Would no other town fit?

(Come to think of it, I already broke the tempo by substituting "Scarborough" for "Scarborough-on-Sea". I wasn't consistent in making a choice between using the song's wordings and Wikipedia's article titles either.)

A more authoritative interpretation, guys? –Unint 01:49, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I've reformatted Scarborough-on-Sea. Not entirely sure re Leigh without checking an atlas - I don't have one to hand - but I'm pretty sure it's right... --kingboyk 06:56, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Here I come again

Seems I've got nothing but questions about this.

I can only guess that the song is, in fact, the origin of the "it's grim up north" phrase? (No mention of anything other than the graffiti.) In that case, a discussion of the regional (seemingly) ubiquity of the phrase would make a good impact on the article. (I've never been to England, but Google turns up a lot of hits unrelated to the song.) –Unint 03:37, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

No I don't think the song is the origin of the phrase :) It would be lovely if we could claim it, but I believe the phrase predates the song. If we could get some information on the exact origins of the phrase it would be a wonderful addition, I heartily agree - but where to find such info? I don't know.

What you probably don't know about, then, as a non-Englishman is the North-South divide. Much of England's industrial revolution activity (coal mining, heavy industries) was in The North (and Wales), but many of those areas declined along with those industries. Also, the song is set in The Pennines a beautiful but desolate area of Northern England (it's actually set on the M62 motorway which crosses the Pennines :)).

I definitely think that the article would be enhanced by explaining all this (so thanks for mentioning it!), but:

• I don't have time at the moment
• How to do it without being original research

Further comments welcome! --kingboyk 08:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

This looks to be bigger than my current comprehension. Moving on... for the moment. –Unint 01:10, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Industrial towns

A slight change as this bit is not correct ”over which Drummond gives a roll-call of many of Northern England's industrial towns” Some of the towns are not industrial, including: Buxton, Bramhall, Chester, Knutsford, Macclesfield, Nantwich. And when was the M62 a town? ThanxTheriac 22:44, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Fix it then. He says they're grimthough, industrial or not! ;) --kingboyk 22:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

It's hard to take this song serious when it claims that Harrogate is grim. That's the same Harrogate that regularly features in the top ten best UK towns to live in.GordyB (talk) 17:09, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

But see the Guardian 2007 comment in the main article - don't neccessarily take the track at face value as the KLF saying the Northern towns are grim - instead the track "wrongfoots the listener" because it blossoms into Jerusalem "as if arriving at some socialist rave utopia". Georgethe23rd (talk) 11:17, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

However, that interpretation fundamentally misses the irony of Jerusalem - it is not any form of Utopia as Jerusalem was not built here amongst our dark satanic mills. Martin Hinks (talk) 14:47, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Good point - I naievely hoped that they were saying that the North is our Jerusalem. And now I've taken a look at And did those feet in ancient time as a result of your post. If there's been a critical evaluation of It's Grim..., suggesting why it turns into Jerusualem, maybe it'd be worth adding to the article. Are the KLF being ironic, or mischief making (after all it is called It's Grim Up North), or what? Georgethe23rd (talk) 10:23, 23 November 2007 (UTC)