Talk:Isaac Brock

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Article milestones Date Process Result June 6, 2005 Peer review Reviewed June 9, 2005 Featured article candidate Promoted Current Status: Featured article

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I can't believe how small this page was. I have overhauled its format and fleshed it out, although it probably needs editting, and more images could be added. I'm going to continue to work on it, but if anyone wants to help (especially in countering the positive bias I have), they're more than welcome- Scimitar

• I've tinkered with it a bit more, putting in a new section, although I'm not really comfortable with the title (attitudes). Perhaps something a little more appropriate could replace that title. Scimitar 16:32, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

The majority of information on this page has been taken from Ferdinand Brock Tupper's book, with a few exceptions (battle, political history and the like are taken from the larger War of 1812 books, and I owe Pierre Berton a considerable knowledge debt). If anyone knows of any other reliable books about Sir Isaac, I'd give a shot at hunting them down and going through them. Thanks.--Scimitar 23:06, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Possible NPOV 2 KCB 3 Mutiny/Tupper 4 An excellent but slightly anti-American article 5 Removed orphaned sentence about Mackenzie Brock 6 Possible vandalism? 7 Apocryphal last utterance

[edit] Possible NPOV

Nova Cygni has suggested that this article is NPOV. Can it be improved? Anything that shows Sir Isaac in a less glowing light, maybe? Metaeducation 22:55, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

• Well, one significant problem is that the only real source on Brocks career is the book by his nephew, which every researcher whose done work on Brock seems to base their opinion on, and it's quite glowing. Additionally, I really couldn't find much that criticized him. His recklessness at Queenston Heights is criticized, and given that he was a confirmed bachelor I looked fairly thoroughly for evidence that he had committed indiscretions in his personal life, but there wasn't anything. Were there any specific instances of POV that you wanted to point out?--Scimitar ^parley 14:11, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] KCB

When I restructured the introduction I took the order of the bath abbreviation ("KCB") out from after Sir Isaac Brock's name at the beginning of the article. Then someone added it back. I think perhaps that we can just call him Sir Isaac Brock in the article opener, and later elaborate on his various titles without use of abbreviation. It's less cluttered and reads aloud (and in one's head) a bit better. Thoughts? Metaeducation 22:55, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

• No objections from me.--Scimitar ^parley 14:11, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mutiny/Tupper

From the article:

Brock sent the twelve mutineers and the seven deserters to Quebec for court martial. There it was discovered that the mutineers had planned to jail all the officers, save Sheaffe, who was to be killed, and then cross the Niagara River into the U.S. at Queenston. Seven soldiers were subsequently executed by firing squad. Ferdinand Tupper was present at the trial and executions, and wrote about them to Brock. He described how the mutineers had testified that they were forced to such measures by the severity of Sheaffe, and how, had they continued under Brock's command, they would never have taken such action. Brock was evidently much moved by the letter. As a result of his continued competence, Brock was promoted to colonel on October 30, 1805.

According to Wikipedia, Ferdinand Brock Tupper was born in 1795, so would have been ten years old in 1805. Is this right? 172.200.83.19 02:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

• • Yes, I believe that's correct. I recollect one of the sources commenting on Tupper's young age; I hadn't realized he was quite so young, but that does fit the material. Excellent catch, incidentally. --Scimitar 05:31, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] An excellent but slightly anti-American article

As a history teacher across the border in Ohio, who specializes in military history, I must state that this article about Brock, although excellent, is not without its biases. It refers to the United States as being "colonies" in 1806, which is ridiculous. The U.S. declared independence in 1776 and I have taken the liberty of editing that section of the article to reflect the fact that we had states and were no one's colonies after July 4th, 1776.

Sincerely, Brett Griffith —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.252.130 (talk) 18:25, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

^Good eye, Brett. As you correctly pointed out, the United States was a sovereign nation at the time of the War of 1812.

[edit] Removed orphaned sentence about Mackenzie Brock

I have removed the following sentence, as it references Brock's supposed long-lost brother Mackenzie Brock, the only other reference to whom was removed some time ago as apparently lacking any sources: "When Mackenzie Brock was captured, he was drawn and quartered for his act of treason." If the claim that Mackenzie shot Isaac is not included in the article, this sentence seems superfluous. If someone finds a source for the other claim, maybe this sentence could be re-added. -Sarcasmboy 02:14, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible vandalism?

I'm not sure how to correct the second paragraph, so I'll leave it to those more knowledgeable.

Some chuckleheads just never learn... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronchristie (talk • contribs) 00:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Apocryphal last utterance

This passage needs to go:

Brock's last words have been reported as surgite (Latin for "rise" or perhaps "press on"), or "Push on, brave York Volunteers" (in reference to a group of the militia Brock favoured) and even "My fall must not be noticed or impede my brave companions from advancing to victory." It has also been reported that Brock died immediately, however, so these accounts are by no means certain.

The account in Pierre Berton, Invasion of Canada, page 253 indicates this is most unlikely. The York Volunteers were not involved in this particular battle. EdJohnston (talk) 03:26, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

If the words as reported 9and the speculation about their menaing) can be definitively sourced, there is no reason to remove it, but we should also add the points you make to counter it. David Underdown (talk) 08:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)