Template talk:Infobox Scottish island

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WikiProject Scottish Islands

General information Main project page talk How You Can Help talk Populated Islands by rank talk Islands by area rank talk Infobox Scottish island talk How to write a Good Article talk Watch List talk Assessment talk Peer review talk Requested articles talk Orkneyinga Saga talk Other Scottish WikiProjects WikiProject Scotland talk Deletion sorting talk WikiProject Clans of Scotland talk WikiProject Medieval Scotland talk WikiProject Scottish Castles talk WikiProject Transport in Scotland talk edit · changes

Contents 1 References 2 Location map 3 Boat Image 4 Population and size ranking 5 Insularity 6 'Group' field 7 Needs vast improvement 8 Infobox UK place merger 9 coordinates 10 Location map again 11 WP:ISLE 12 Printable version 13 "rankings" need explanation 14 Image 14.1 December 07 image change 15 Changes to Template September 07 16 That "Celtic" thing again 17 Last inhabited 18 references section

[edit] References

Groupings and population information are available at List of islands of Scotland the latter being based on the 2001 census. Area measurements for the 162 islands of 100 acres or more in size are available in Haswell-Smith, Hamish. (2004) The Scottish Islands. Edinburgh. Canongate. I'd be happy to pass the relevant numbers on if needed, although I doubt I am going to get around to listing all 162. I am not aware of any other source for area information for the smaller islands. There is a case for having groupings of the Hebrides other than those that the list provides, which seem inconsistent to me. Following Haswell Smith I suggest:

Lewis and Harris, Uists and Benbecula, Barra, Islay, Mull, Small Isles, Skye, and Inner Hebrides (north), and Atlantic Outliers. The Slate Islands are also contenders if needed.

[edit] Location map

Moving the dot: to move the black dot just download the Low-res image to your computer and open it with an image editing program. Then you can either "select" the area of the black dot and drag it to the location you want or just erase the dot and place a new one where you need it. Then just save with a suitable name, upload and add it to the location map category. The GIMP is a nice free editor which can do most thinks (windows installer here)) - the additional benefit of using the gimp is that you can download the xcf map map which will open with the dot preselected and ready to move to where you need it. (The above are the intsructions provided to me, which seems to work, but I am by no means skilled in this). Ben MacDui (Talk) 09:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

There are also separate categories of 'Locator maps of Orkney and Shetland islands' and 'Locator maps of the Outer Hebrides' on Commons which may be suitable. Ben MacDui (Talk) 14:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I discovered many more maps for Scottish islands hiding in a variety of locations and I have attempted to corall them within one Commons category here [1] which includes an Inner Hebrides sub-category. Ben MacDui (Talk) 19:41, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Boat Image

The image of a longboat is used next to the Saltire to emphasise the difference with Template:Infobox Scotland place. The said image is called Image:McdonaldBoat.jpg. Before ancient foes of Clan Donald complain, I am assured that the proper name for this image is a 'Lymphad' and that its was actually purloined from the Russian wikipedia. The same image appears on Image:Norse-Gael Warrior.PNG and the Sinclair Orkney arms [2] [3] which suggests to me that the lymphad may be appropriate for all our isles whether they have a primarily Celtic or primarily Norse history. Ben MacDui (Talk) 09:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the boat image is a

See also 'Image' below. It was removed before then immediately replaced. The Deacon and Angus seems to understand its provenance. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 09:19, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Population and size ranking

Although Haswell-Smith's book is undoubtedly the best reference, I don't think that his ranking system is suitable for wikipedia as he uses a definition of island which excludes those linked by bridge to the mainland (ie. Skye), and treats islands linked together by bridges/causeways as one (e.g South Uist, Benbecula, Eriskay etc). Are we going to say that Skye should not be categorised as an island? If not then we should ignore Haswell-Smith's rankings and use those in List_of_islands_of_Scotland#Larger offshore islands.--JBellis 16:06, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

The 'List of inhabited islands by Population Size' is fine, but the list of 'Largest islands in Scotland,' is useless for smaller islands outside the largest ten, which are my main interest. Whilst I agree that Haswell-Smith's notion of what is and is not an island is flawed, the only way to come up with something better would be to add everything that's missing back into his list (or any other similar one, should it exist.) It's not a trivial piece of work and as the transcluded template is not heavily in use at present, I am not going to offer to do it just yet! It seems surprising that after nearly 200 years of Scottish geography H-Smith had, so he claims, to measure them all himself. Ben MacDui (Talk) 23:10, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

If we agree that Haswell-Smith's definition of an island is not the same as that used in Wikipedia, why do you think that it is valid to use his ranking system without explanation? Should SOuth Uist be 4 (HS) or 10 as in List_of_islands_of_Scotland#Larger offshore islands? Without a compatible ranking system surely it would be better to not list a ranking. Other than the obvious Munros ranking, there aren't rankings for all rivers, lochs, forests etc. --JBellis 20:56, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

We agree that Haswell-Smith's definition of an island is not ideal, but I can't think of any obvious reason not to use it as the best list there is at present. I completely agree that South Uist should be 10. If you want to use it for South Uist, or somewhere else all we need to do is agree that the first 10 should use the existing list, and that smaller islands should come from Haswell-Smith until a better list is drawn up, accepting that the entries using H-Smith will change when this happens. An alternative would be to use the template but ignore the ranking. The template is currently used in 3 places. At my rate of progress it might be a dozen by the end of the year. I don't think there is a major problem in having a few discrepancies in the meantime. If you are planning to use it on lots of islands soon, I would be happy to create a new list.

I'm with Ben here; Haswell-Smith's rankings need to be checked to ensure that they are appropriate for our definition of an island, but provided we check them for obvious differences and accept that we may have to make future alterations in light of better information, we should use them. Warofdreams talk 00:41, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I have completed an update of Haswell's area rankings using the detailed data he has in the chapters. I have only done this for the first 102 islands in the appendix. Eilean Iubhard descends from 102 in the appendix to 126 (i.e the are a total of 24 additional islands in the first 102 including the Uists, Skye etc.) I used the list of islands by population as a starting point and discovered that Grimsay B and Flodda are not easy to place, although they are probably not large enough to appear in the first 100 anyway.Ben MacDui (Talk) 19:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Insularity

I am considering adding a field for this quality. The ideas is to use it as a measure of the dificulty of travelling there (by land and public transport and without using aviation).

A traveller from mainland Britain can walk onto Skye over the bridge. Its insularity is therefore nil.

To reach Orkney they must take a ferry. Its insularity is therefore single.

To reach Westray they must take another ferry. Its insularity is therefore double.

To reach Eilean Annraidh north of Iona the traveller must take a ferry to Mull, then another to Iona, then row over to the islet. Its insularity is therefore triple.

Comments welcome. Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:15, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

This seems rather like original research to me. Unless you can cite sources that list the insularity of Scottish islands. And it seems rather arbitrary - why exclude aviation? And why exclude bridges but include ferries? And why can't you just row directly from the mainland to Eilean Annraidh?

Though I think it would be useful for island articles to inlcude a 'travel' or 'transport' section which would describe the possible ways of getting there. --Vclaw 13:30, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

You might be able to row to Iona from the mainland, but I couldn't! However I have been looking around for a source for this kind of information without any success. Whilst I actually don't think public aviation routes would make much difference and I do think the concept is potentially useful as a measure of an island's remoteness, in the absence of anything that would satisfy WP:V it will have to bide its time. Ben MacDui (Talk) 19:47, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Looks an interesting idea - could call it "Connectedness" and list road (ie bridge/causeway) (are there any islands with a footbridge connection, not road, I wonder?), ferry, air service. But would you want to distinguish between ferry (several a day) and ferry (once a week) etc? Could get messy, and would need a lot of checking/updating? PamD 12:48, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Rereading, I see you want a single numerical parameter for "insularity". Not sure it would work. But a list of connections would go a long way towards the info needed, even without quantifying frequency etc: this island is connected to X by road, A, B and C by ferry, British mainland by air (showing direct services only), etc. PamD 12:53, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 'Group' field

The purpose of this field is to make it easier to locate an island. The groups, after Haswell-Smith, are as follows:

1. Firth of Clyde
2. Islay
3. Mull
4. Small Isles
5. Skye
6. North-west
7. Lewis and Harris
8. Uists and Barra
9. St Kilda
10. Orkney
11. Shetland

plus Firth of Lorn for the many islands north of Scarba and to the south of Loch Linnhe and

Firth of Forth

Haswell-Smith's 'Atlantic Outliers' is not in use as it seems more logical to group the Flannan Isles, North Rona and Sula Sgeir with Lewis than with St Kilda. If the template is used for some of the smaller island groups such as Solway Firth or Firth of Tay will be needed. It's common sense really.

'North-west' is accurate enough but rather unevocative. Suggestions very welcome.

Note that in the case of the Northern Isles 'Orkney' and 'Shetland' link to descriptions of the council area/archipelago, so I have used

island group=[The Mainland, Orkney|Orkney]

local authority=[Orkney|Orkney Islands]

and

island group=[Shetland Mainland|Shetland]

local authority=[Shetland|Shetland Islands]

There is some inconsistency in the existing transclusions which I will attempt to fix asap. Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:20, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Comments: I generally agree with this classification, but it should be made that Argyll-Sutherland = Hebrides, and there should also be a section for Islands in the Firth of Forth. --MacRusgail 18:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The presence of a Hebrides template will hopefully remove any ambiguity about that, and yes there is no reason not to have a Firth of Forth section - its just that the islands are relatively small and I have not yet paid them any attention. Feel free to do so! - it's all work in progress. Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:15, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I've done a lot of work on the Islands of the Forth. Most, are indeed small, but their proximity to the capital and densely populated areas makes them of interest. In particular, Inchkeith for example has been of tactical importance to Leith. I intend to expand all of them at some point.

v • d • e Islands of the Forth Bass Rock · Craigleith · Cramond Island · Eyebroughy · Fidra · Inchcolm · Inchgarvie · Inchkeith · Inchmickery · The Lamb · Isle of May Alloa Inch (river island), Rosyth Castle (former island)

--MacRusgail 16:10, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Great stuff. I hadn't realised so much was happening on the east coast. Things are generally pretty sleepy in the west and north. Ben MacDui (Talk) 17:19, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Needs vast improvement

To be brought into line with "infobox Scotland place with map". Also, I think that the language section needs to be tidied up - e.g. none of this "Celtic" name stuff. Gaidhlig names are the only ones really relevant there. However, I think in the case of the Northern Isles, that sections for the Shetlandic/Orcadian (Lowland Scots) names + Norn/Old Norse names (where known) would be more in order. In their case, the Gaelic can be omitted. In the case of the islands in the Clyde, many have Lallans forms. --MacRusgail 18:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Sadly infobox Scotland is in process of deletion. Also, it is not an attempt to duplicate the Scotland or UK place infobox but to create something island specific. I can see no purpose in having an infobox for umpteen small islands that simply repeats the same information over and over about car registrations and ambulances, especially as many are uninhabited. Indeed, attempting to overlap with UK infobox woudl most likely result in proposed deletion

The 'Celtic' name is because a few are apparently Brythonic e.g. Arran (and some may be of Irish rather than Scots). On the very few occasions I have come across so far where where there are Lowland Scots derivations (Muckle Roe) this is mentioned. Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree about the car regs & ambulances. However, I think that the etymology of the name should be separated from the Gaidhlig form. "Arran" is of disputed etymology, but all the islands off Scotland's west coast (as opposed to northern isles) have a Gaidhlig name of some description. In the case of islands with reasonably large populations, including the two "Mainlands", "Lewis and Harris" and "Skye" etc, then there would a good case fo rinfo boxes.

In short, my view is ditch the local service information, and to separate the etymology from the Gaidhlig/Lallans name. The same could go for mountains, some of which have an English etymology e.g. "The Cobbler", but have a different Gaidhlig name --MacRusgail 16:07, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for being dense but I don't quite follow you. There isn't any local service info in the island infobox (although a suggestion was made about including ferries). Also there are separate fields for the two main language sources of the names and a different one to explain the meaning. Ben MacDui (Talk) 17:23, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't like the phrase "Gaelic or Celtic name", as Gaelic is a Celtic language. Surely it should read "Gaelic or Brythonic name", or simply "Celtic name". Lurker 17:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox UK place merger

Could anyone interested look at Template talk:Infobox UK place#Suburbs_.2F_Parishes_.2F_Islands where I have raised the issue of a possible merger. Your thoughts / comments would be most appreciated. Regan123 10:31, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] coordinates

I've added a coordinates option, but the display isn't how it should be (see Islay); can someone assist, please? Thank you. Andy Mabbett 15:43, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Done (chgallen 13:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC))

Thank you. Andy Mabbett 14:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Location map again

Does anyone know make a location map with a marker dot in this infobox? - as Aberdeen and Edinburgh. As far as I can see the present map needs to be designed specifically for an island. Some of the existing maps have such a small patch of red that it is hard to see the location. I have the syntax for Template:Location map - mock up at User:Finavon/sandbox2, although I see MSIE does not float text alongside first table. I cannot see how to incorporate that into Template:Infobox Scottish island. Is this worth pursuing? Finavon 01:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I've never tried to use this map I'm afraid. In the context of UK infobox the co-ordinates don't seem to work that well. (See for example Burghead). Ben MacDui (Talk) 09:25, 21 July 2007 (UTC) PS You can try asking for one to me made at WP:SCOWNB#Requested images

Its not the image itself, rather the syntax (or template modification) to superimpose a dot on Image:Scotland (Location) Template (HR).png within Template:Infobox Scottish island. I hope someone reads this who knows how to get it right. Ideally I would like to use the infobox on each island page, including a map. It seems unnecessary to create images for 206 islands (my current total - agree with Carna). The ability to use the various existing maps, or the "outline plus dot" seems a reasonable idea. There is clearly an accuracy problem (Burghead still shows the general area), but my greater concern is the amount of map obscured by the dot - especially on a small map. Finavon 10:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:ISLE

Watchers of this page are hereby notified of the existence of Wikipedia:WikiProject Scottish Islands aka WP:ISLE. You are very welcome to visit and contribute. Ben MacDui (Talk) 20:15, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Printable version

Choosing a page with an infobox and then 'printable version', creates an infobox with a long http://wwwrhaworth.myby....... web reference, which is not visible in the normal version and is certainly not directly included in the code of the template. (I have looked at this with two different browsers). Does anyone have an idea of the cause, and/or can fix it? Ben MacDui (Talk) 07:40, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

It seems to be related to the map link associated with the grid reference. Following it gives the page reached by clicking the GR. See also the printable version of List of Marilyns on Scottish islands! I would not get very excited - Wiki is not intended to be printed. Finavon 07:58, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "rankings" need explanation

If you are not a Scottish islands expert but just go to an article for an island - say Westray - the infobox is obscure. There's "Area rank if >40 ha: 24 " and "Population rank: 20 out of 97". No indication what group is being ranked (local authorities, parishes, Orkney islands, British islands, ...?). Could I suggest that the text be amended to "Area rank among Scottish islands" and "Population rank among Scottish islands"? PamD 09:23, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

It's a question of space - and still evolving. I suspect only people with an interest in following it through will pursue the rankings. They relate to the first reference - List of islands of Scotland. I'll await comments from the editors of the infobox. Finavon 09:39, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

It was perhaps a little clearer until a mysterious anon removed 'Scottish island' from the template header, and I agree that the information is more obscure than is desirable. Adding <small>Ranks refer to [[List of islands of Scotland|Scottish Islands]] to the bottom below References might do the trick. Ben MacDui (Talk) 09:57, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

In line with WP:BOLD I've amended the template - carefully, and from looking at Westray it looks OK. I'd be delighted if someone improves the wording, but I really do think it needs either a change like this or the replacement of "Scottish island of" as deleted by the anon - it just doesn't make sense otherwise! What I can't see is how to fix things so that the population rank field appears on Template:Infobox Scottish island page (an omission which predates my editing the template!). PamD 10:40, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Rank only appear when there is data in the population field - there is none on the (blank) template page. It works on Westray, which looks a little cluttered. Finavon 10:55, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I see: every island has an area ranking, but only the populated have a pop ranking - that explains why the one appears on the template page and not the other. Obvious when I think about it! Thanks. Yes, Westray looks cluttered, but at least it makes sense: I don't know whether it might be clearer to put the extra words into the field name... will give it a try. Looking at Bac Mor, the existing version doesn't work - but if pop ranking can be suppressed when absent, presumably area ranking can too. PamD 12:05, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Have edited the template again, making the area ranking only appear in Infobox when it's present (copying the syntax from the pop ranking), and putting the clarifications into the left-hand col, field name, rather than with the data. I think it's clearer, and looks OK for Westray (has both rankings), Cava, Orkney (ranked area, no pop) and for Bac Mor (area <40ha). I see Innis Chonain has an area ranking although <40ha, which presumably would have appeared with the old template as "Area ranking if >40ha", confusingly! (I was looking for an example of small and populated.) Enough for one day. PamD 12:34, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Looks better in the labels. Innis Chonain should not have an area ranking (removed) - hard enough to get them down to 40 ha! As I said, early days and still ironing out mistakes - still working to add infoboxes. Finavon 16:35, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image

Image:McdonaldBoat.jpg is not recognised. Finavon 07:36, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I can't remember where, but in the last couple of days I saw a message saying it was a copyvio as it had originally been lifted from a Russian heraldry site - the beige background was cited as evidence supporting this. PamD 08:03, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Foolishly, I was not watching the image, but I have tried to track down its provenance. See my talk page. I'll remove it from the template if its not fixed in a few hours. Ben MacDui (Talk) 13:07, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

That image was originally from here: A Closer Look at West Highland Heraldry.--Celtus (talk) 09:35, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Well not according to my previous information. It came from a Russian wiki of some sort. What an absolute pain (again). Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 20:11, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Lymphad image now re-created using different image. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 12:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] December 07 image change

The old image was bounced from Commons earlier this month, but a new one has been found. Its part of a bigger coat of arms image on Commons. It was then take to Commons Licensing for approval. For the record here is some of the dialogue:

Part of a CoA image

I recently left a comment at User talk:Steifer#Image:Lymphad3.jpg in which I say: "I have uploaded a portion of your Douglas coat of arms (Image:Douglas hamiltonCoA.png) as the above image (Image:Lymphad3.jpg).... It is my assumption that this does not violate the copyright of the original image, and my hope that you will be agreeable to its use in this manner."

User:Steifer has not yet replied. I have been told by a couple of experienced Commons users that there isn't a problem as the image "should be in the public domain because of its age". I'd be obliged if you could confirm this. Thanks. W. L. Tarbert 12:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

If that portion of the original image is public domain (I didn't look into the original source so I'm not sure), then it is fine, but your upload should then probably be marked public domain as well. If User:Steifer is considered the author, then he would be the author of your upload too -- I would change to the PD-user tag and not use PD-self, as cropping an image doesn't add any new copyright (it's the same copyright as the original). Carl Lindberg 16:44, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Since the original image was released by it's author as GFDL and cc-by-2.5 that means that the author has allowed anyone to make derivatives based on that image. You're image is therefore ok since it correctly states the source from which it was derived. /Lokal_Profil 01:58, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 20:04, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Changes to Template September 07

Copied from my talk page re problem with use of template map at Dubh Artach, Ben MacDui (Talk) 11:10, 19 September 2007 (UTC):

OK, I see the problem you are talking about. The issue is that the infobox only works with a static map; trying to generate one using a template doesn't work. To my mind, the best approach would be to include the additional information required to generate the dynamic map as fields in the infobox. It could then be set to automatically display, unless a static map is specified. If that sounds like it might be of interest, I'd be happy to get it working. Warofdreams talk 18:16, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I think by this that you mean it would automatically display the standard map and a red dot? If so, yes please - the map has some deficiencies but its much better than a blank space if no detailed map is available. Cheers. Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:23, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've done that. It will now display the standard map and a red dot for any article with a latitude and longitude entered. Warofdreams talk 00:45, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

That's fixed the problem and adds a potentially useful new feature - many thanks. I am not sure about the details here, but given that the co-ords also get displayed at the top of the page, will it work if the lat/long fields are hidden from view in the infobox? Ben MacDui (Talk) 11:16, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

i've tried it using <includeonly> tags, but that kils the map too. Lurker (said · done) 11:54, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Done, it was the <noinclude> tag I should have been using. The fields are now hidden, but the map displays. Lurker (said · done) 12:23, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I thought displaying the co-ordinates in the infobox might be useful, but if we don't ever want the co-ordinates to display in the infobox, we can just remove those lines. Warofdreams talk 12:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't really understand what it does by I think the documentation provided by our departed friend Pigs on the Wing automatically creates co-ords somehow. (If that's not that it does its purpose eludes me). Ben MacDui (Talk) 21:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

From testing it out, removing the longitude and latitude figures stops the map from displaying. So I put a <noinclude> tag in the template code. This means editors have to include the figures, but they do not display. As far as I can tell, this is the only way to have a location map in the box without also displaying the coordinates. Lurker (said · done) 10:03, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

No, it works fine. I've fixed it. Warofdreams talk 15:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] That "Celtic" thing again

(A hobby horse of mine...)

Why can't we just say Gaelic, isn't that what is nearly always meant? Also, I think it should be pointed out that while nearly all the islands south of the Pentland Firth have some kind of Gàidhlig name, this is not always the same as the etymology, e.g. Rùm (current name) and I-Dhruim (possible etymology), ditto St Kilda and Hiort. --MacRusgail 18:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Is this not already fixed [4]? Ben MacDui^(Talk)/(Walk) 20:07, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Last inhabited

It would be interesting to list the last date of inhabitation where known on the uninhabited islands, although there would have to be a distinction between lighthouse keepers and proper inhabitants! --MacRusgail (talk) 23:25, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

It's an interesting idea and we already have info for Orkney and Shetland on the lists. I suspect there might be a lot of 'unknown's in the Hebrides. What have you got against lighthouse keepers? It also annoys me to have to define Hirta as uninhabited because the census does not seem to count the military base. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 08:50, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I think we've gone over this before. Lighthouse keepers and military personnel, not to mention occasional holiday makers are on and off the island. Farmers and fishermen may have to be based there. If it's unknown, we leave it blank. Some of the wee stack in Shetland appear to have been inhabited by Culdees at some point. --MacRusgail (talk) 17:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

OK - I'll have a look into this but I'm a bit stretched at present. Give me a prod if I don't do anything within say 10 days. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 19:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC):

Let's not add another field to the infobox, but rather use the existing "population" field, which by definition will be zero. Indeed I think some islands already have "uninhabited since <Date>". Finavon (talk) 09:06, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

How do you go about this? --MacRusgail (talk) 19:08, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

You just add "last inhabited 1314" in the population field so that it reads : |Population= last inhabited 1314. If its not already there it needs a ref as well of course. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 20:08, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

If we're going to do this we should try to be consistent e.g.:

7th century BC

13th century

1860s

1931

Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 20:11, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

As a rule of thumb, perhaps go by century, then decade from 18/19th century onwards, and precise year, if known, esp in 20 th c onwards. --MacRusgail (talk) 23:17, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] references section

Why has this infobox got a separate section for references? Surely the references belong next to what they are referring to? i.e. the reference for population should be next to the number for population. As it is, it is confusing as to what the tiny little numbers at the bottom of the box refer to. See how its done with the UK place infobox, on Aberdeen for example. --Vclaw (talk) 22:08, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Interesting to see such an example as many of them seem unreferenced or under-referenced. Aberdeen itself has citations for only a small percentage of the material. By contrast very little that appears in island Infoboxes is lacking a citation or other corroborative evidence. The main reason is that Haswell Smith - the most commonly used reference work - will often cover most or even all of the details. This is usually backed up by the Ordnance Survey for highest point, GRO for population etc. I take your point, but anyone familiar with the subject is unlikely to think that the Ordnance Survey is being used to verify the population, or that the Orkneyinga Saga is a citation for the highest elevation. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 10:27, 9 March 2008 (UTC)