Talk:Independent evidence for Apollo Moon landings

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This article was nominated for deletion on 2007-02-07. The result of the discussion was Keep.

Archives

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Contents 1 What Now? 2 Moon Rocks 3 Independent evidence for NASA'a claim of quantity of Moon rocks 4 Removing references to hoax believers 5 Please explain yourself ScienceApologist 6 More merge stuff 7 Grammar and sentence flow need work 8 Move request 9 Not neutral? Not accurate? Apparently the hoax article isn't disputed... 10 Does this count as indpeendent evidence? 11 Merge tag 12 Talk:Apollo missions tracked by independent parties 12.1 POV fork 12.2 Message for Gravitor 12.3 Merge with evidence article 12.4 Jodrell Bank 12.4.1 Add this 13 Merge edit 14 Future plans that may generate evidence

[edit] What Now?

We have the Apollo missions tracked by independent parties article, now it is time to decide what to do with this article. Here are some ideas:

1. Merge into hoax article.
2. Merge Moon Rock section into a section named Analysis or Independent Analysis.
3. Or that big one: AfD/Independent evidence for Apollo Moon landings
4. Leave it as it is, possibly deleting the other article.

So now is the time to decide! Lets get this done. Branson03 16:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I see no reason to delete it. Bubba73 (talk), 17:02, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I forgot the leave it the way it is. Instead of delete, it could redirct to something. Most of the stuff on this page is on the new article. Branson03 02:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it's time to look at the results of the merge debate, and probably merge it. There's no need to duplicate the stuff here as it's covered in the Apollo missions tracked by independent parties article, and once you remove that there is not much left to merge into the "main" article. I concede the main article is rather long, but I've put on the talk page there a way of extracting the rather bloated trivia section into a separate article. LeeG 21:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Leave it as it is - no need to merge, and certainly not delete. If people have a problem with the newer article, that should be deleted or merged into this one. We did not go 11:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Read all of the talk page We did not go. You will find that the majority consensus agreed that Apollo missions tracked by independent parties would be created, It was supported by both sides of the revert war. If you don't want this page merged, then don't suggest merge on the other article and not this one. Branson03 12:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Leave it the way it is, perhaps deleting the new POV fork. Gravitor 14:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

What POV fork? There is no POV fork. Branson03 17:42, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Remeber What Lunokhod said, do we need a independent evidence for everything that ever happened? Like Independent evidence for 9/11 or Independent evidence for the American Revolution. Branson03 20:12, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

First we should decide what to do with the sections that are not in the missions tracked article, below is a list of them. Should they be merged, stay, deleted, etc. We shouold also look at the results of the merge with the hoax article, if we merge it, all we need to do is redirect to the hoax article, and we will be done. Branson03 14:30, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

1. Definition of Independent evidence
2. Significance of independent evidence
3. Existence of Moon rocks
4. Evidence of landing (unmanned or human)
5. Tracking visually and by radio
6. Future plans that may generate evidence

Well, one way to clean up the mess that was made would be to make the 'missions tracked' a sub-article, and make simply a list of the missions that were tracked independently part of this article, with a link to the independent tracking page. Gravitor 17:18, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that we can lose the definition - as the word "evidence" is the one causing problems, and it's also the part that makes this appear as original research. We could pop a paragraph into the "main" article (I think in this section. The paragraph would state that in addition to the critiques raised, most of the missions were tracked or otherwise observed by third parties, and a link to the observations article. The moon rocks section is again becoming part of a debate (see below), but to my mind it can go into the main article - oh, wait, it's already there. All that's in the evidence of landing section is the retroreflector - in the main article already. The radio tracking bits are in the new article, just under missions rather than being in a separate section The future plan is just that, and can be dumped into the main article somewhere near the bottom. That lot does not add too much to the article, and I've set out over there how to split out the trivia section to make it a more reasonable size. In other words - all of the stuff on here is pretty much duplicated elsewhere, bar the highly controversial opening gambit, and if we really want to keep it, chuck it in the main article. LeeG 22:25, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. -- ArglebargleIV 18:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Your links to the main article are ridiculous. This article is NOT ABOUT THE HOAX. You have presented exactly NO evidence that the people who made these observations did so because of the hoax. Oh, wait a minute - they did it 10 years before the hoax even emerged! It's pathetic to insist that this has anything to do with the hoax! Gravitor 20:12, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

As is repeated many times, the collation in one place is in the context of the hoax. The use of the word "evidence" can only relate to the hoax. This article only exists because the hoax exists. LeeG 20:16, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense - you've presented no evidence for this. It's entirely reasonable to present all of this in one place. That doesn't make it part of the hoax. Gravitor 20:29, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Why is it reasonable to present this in one place if there is no need to present evidence of something that is generally accepted as happening? Where else does this reasonable thing happen? It does not. Wikipedia remains the only place this stuff is collected. As Keel wrote, presentation of this stuff is only necessary due to conspiracy theories. LeeG 20:51, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

No, that's not what Keel wrote, as you well know. I don't know why you are so afraid of evidence in the area of NASA. Gravitor 22:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I concede it does not say that exactly. He says "In this time of rampant conspiracy theories, one point of documenting these observations is to demonstrate independent evidence, from non-governmental observers, that large objects exhibiting exactly the configuration and behavior of the Apollo spacecraft were seen en route to and from the Moon.", ergo, it is connected to the hoax. LeeG 22:31, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

In the same way that sugar is connected to Twinkies. Sugar is used in making Twinkies, but you don't find the sugar article as a sub-section of the Twinkies article, do you? Of course not, there is a passing mention that sugar is one of the ingredients. Your current edit is correct - a small mention of the hoax near the bottom of the article is appropriate. Carfiend 00:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I missed the discussion on why the salient bullet point is at the bottom of the list, and why my "correct" edit was changed a little, so I am going to make a few changes to that section, but leave it materially the same. LeeG 21:27, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think the "why do it" section belongs after the "definition" or in the "definition" section. They both set the scene, and would flow better if it read that way, rather than telling someone why anyone would want this stuff at the end. LeeG 21:51, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moon Rocks

I removed the speculation, NASA commentary and irrelevant material from this section - the article is not called 'Nasa's account of the Apollo program'. There is no independent confirmation of the amount of 'Moon Rock' that NASA claims it has. Gravitor 17:25, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Wahkeenah - use the talk page. Reverting without comment is not constructive. Gravitor 21:47, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

You also removed the link to the hoax article I notice - that was not discussed here, so it's going back. This is inextricably linked to the hoax, so the link should stay. In fact that seems to be discussed above at length. LeeG 22:30, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

yes - and you have failed to make your point. Unless you have evidence of a time machine in use (not the most unlikely claim from the NASA camp) what you are claiming is impossible. Please discuss your changes here, rather than reverting without meaningful comment. As established, this article is tangentially at best related to the hoax. It is certainly not the main motivation for collection of evidence. You know that that is true, and yet you continually revert, without comment. It's not productive. Gravitor 22:46, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to get into a revert edit war with you. I have had a sit down, and a cup of tea, and will skip over the allegations of my "continual reversion" when I have done it once, and "without comment" when there is a comment above. Read above "4 users think that this topic is related in some manner to the Apollo Moon landing hoax accusations, whereas 2 do not." and below that two other editors state that it's linked to the hoax. That's six to two - I know it's not a consensus, but a distinct majority, and now we show the minority position, which is, to be honest, a bit strange to say the least. I'll not revert for fear of winding up on WP:LAME. LeeG 23:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I, also, do not want an edit war, but if four users thought the moon was made of cheese, and two did not, I would not accept the article saying the moon was cheese - the truth is not something we vote on. It is very clear that the evidence presented was not collected in response to the hoax accusations, and the sites listing it are neither hoax sites, nor predominantly hoax response sites. The original publishers of the evidence were space enthusiast journals years before the hoax even surfaced. Gravitor 17:22, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

However, the evidence is useful ammunition against the hoax theories that came afterward. You never address that point. The evidence and observations can and must be considered in the context of the hoax claims. -- ArglebargleIV 18:07, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I do address that point - I am happy to have a sentence or two in the article, near the bottom, that says that this plays a small part in a minor controversy, what I am absolutely opposed to is the idea that this is the framing story of the evidence. Gravitor 19:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Good news - so we can insert a section at the bottom that is called "reasons for collecting evidence" with the content "the only reason for collating all this evidence in one place (cite = Bill Keel's page, see Gravitor's helpful direction to the word "evidence" above) is in the context of a minor controversy (see Gravitor's opinion, above), that of the lunar landings being a hoax. This collection rebuts that claim." or something like that? LeeG 20:05, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

So, if I put the items back, you'll leave them? I doubt that. Your argument is irrelevant:

• the nature of this project is that a majority see the sensible side of any debate, and under no circumstances would a majority say the moon was made of cheese. It's a pointless hypothesis.

It's not pointless - your idea that a majority of people voting on a page makes it true regardless of the facts is ludicrous. Tell that to the folks at the evolution page. Gravitor 19:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

• the second part of the statement cuts to the heart of the problem - this "evidence" has been collected nowhere in the whole wide world but on this page. It is therefore original research, and the reason for it being collected on one page is directly connected to the hoax as it was written as a direct spin off from the hoax.
  I restate, merge this article with the hoax page, delete the controversial opening statement, and be done with it. LeeG 17:56, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense. This is not about the hoax. The evidence appears elsewhere, and is well documented. There is no original research. Gravitor 19:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Please give me a link, an ISBN, a journal, that collects more than one of these sources, ideally using the phrases "independent evidence" and "moon landings". There is no such thing. This article is original research, as it only appears in one place - Wikipedia. If I missed the link, indulge me and reproduce it below. Thanks in advance. LeeG 19:52, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

If you had read the article, you would know that there are links in it to just such a site. Gravitor 19:56, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Please, help me out, I cannot see it. I have read this article many, many times, and I cannot see it. Just do a quick copy and paste here. I am not asking much, maybe 20 seconds of your time. LeeG 20:50, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

http://www.astr.ua.edu/keel/space/apollo.html

So we are ignoring this part of that page "In this time of rampant conspiracy theories, one point of documenting these observations is to demonstrate independent evidence, from non-governmental observers, that large objects exhibiting exactly the configuration and behavior of the Apollo spacecraft were seen en route to and from the Moon." to say this has nothing to do with the hoax accusations? LeeG 22:27, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

No. If you read my posts above, you will see that I do not oppose a sentence saying that one reason for keeping these kinds of pages is the hoax. It is NOT the only, or the main reason, and was not one of the reasons for collecting them in the first place. It is a minor reason, that emerged late in the history of the evidence collection, and should not have a prominent place in the article. Please read posts before replying to them. Gravitor 22:31, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

One is going in then, as you have no objections. LeeG 22:32, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Please try not to get this page protected again. Branson03 16:06, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

More than a fair point. I am hoping that by containing ourselves to the talk page we can avoid that. LeeG 18:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Well done Lee - that looks like a good start. Carfiend 00:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Independent evidence for NASA'a claim of quantity of Moon rocks

Has anyone independent ever seen / weighed / confirmed the quantity of rocks NASA claims? Gravitor 22:24, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Not that I have seen. It's just a claim at this point. Carfiend 00:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Science Apologist - can you explain why you think this is not relevant? Carfiend 00:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removing references to hoax believers

Per WP:WEIGHT the extreme minority of the hoax believers should not be pandered to. This is an article that is meant to present the independent evidence for the landings, not the attempted counterarguments by simpletons who believe in conspiracy theories. --ScienceApologist 00:33, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

This is not about the hoax. It's about independent evidence for the landings. I can't help it if you are offended that there is no independent evidence for NASA's claim to have Moon rocks. You can't blame that on a conspiracy. Carfiend 00:45, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Lets assume that the moon hoax idea never came up. The you wouldn't need evidence for the moon landings, because everyone knows that it happened. This title is the problem with the article, not the article itself. Thats why I suggested moving it to Apollo missions tracked by independent parties, a title that better fits the article, and a non-hoax article, just as Gravitor and Carfiend wanted. Branson03 00:53, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

That isn't true. Keel's site is not primarily an anti hoax site, neither are the journals he cites. Even if it were true, it would be irrelevant, since much knowledge is not 'needed' strictly speaking. The problem with the 'tracked' article is that it does not cover other evidence. Gravitor 01:04, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The move is appropriate. I have been bold and done it. --ScienceApologist 01:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The move is inappropriate. I have been bold and undone it. Gravitor 01:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

We should look at some possibilities for a new title that fits everything, and does not label it as evidence, but information. One of the two articles can be moved to the new title, and the other redirected to the new title. Branson03 01:16, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I am open to exploring that, but we should reach consensus through discussion, not by provoking revert-wars by wading into a topic that is contentious. Gravitor 01:22, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

As I see it, "evidence" is inappropriate but talking about independent tracking is fine. Branson03 is correct in stating that these articles need to be written from the perspective that the Moon Landings did occur per WP:WEIGHT. We cannot pander to the hoax woo-woos. --ScienceApologist 12:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem is, as you can plainly see, there is more evidence than simply tracking. Also, please try to elevate your contributions above name-calling. Gravitor 15:11, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please explain yourself ScienceApologist

If you tag something as disputed, please have the courtesy to explain why on the talk page, that way we have a chance to reach consensus. Gravitor 01:13, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I dispute that commentary on psuedoskepticism regarding the origin of moon rocks belongs on this page. It is factually incorrect according to the title and POV. --ScienceApologist 12:23, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree - it is the independent evidence, or lack of, that belongs on this page. No commentary is required. The title is fine, and the facts are not a point of view. Gravitor 14:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More merge stuff

We may have missed this (see above) in amongst all the talk here, it's tricky to spot, so I am putting it down here too where it may actually get read:

As an uninvolved reader, I think the merge should go ahead anyway. The Hoax Accusations article is older, and this article makes sense only in its context. Generally when there is a debate, it helps to present both sides of the debate together. Note that I am a college science major, and I believe that accusations of hoax moon landings are nonsense. I just want to structure the articles in the best way possible. YechielMan 18:43, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The more people that read this mess, the more that agree it is only makes sense in the context of the hoax allegations. LeeG 21:34, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

We already have Apollo missions tracked by independent parties. I would say anything that is already in that article that is also in this article could be stricken from this article. If there is anything still left in this article of a factual nature, it could be added to "Apollo missions tracked by independent parties". Anything that's left after that should be small enough to make for a quick introductory paragraph within the hoax article along with the link to "Apollo missions tracked by independent parties". Wahkeenah 01:29, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

That is the most sensible solution. It would also help out with the issue raised on grammar by the editor below. It would be good if we could return to (I think) Arglebargle's suggestion that the other article covered general tracking of space missions by earthbound folks. It may be interesting to a wider audience, realising they can see the ISS, for example, if they know where to look. LeeG 10:33, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Grammar and sentence flow need work

You should be aware that there are multiple grammatical errors in the article, resulting in some nonsensical statements. Because improving the grammar could potentially alter the intended meaning of some of the sentences, and also because of the history of edit warring here, I am not willing to clean this up myself; however, if there is an editor working on this article who has good writing skills, this would be a good time to break them out. Risker 03:33, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

• See previous section. Also, now that the two most notorious edit warriors have been blocked, things should go more smoothly here. Wahkeenah 02:41, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move request

I wholeheartedly oppose this. This is a page documenting independent evidence, something that space journals, webpages and historical sites all do. It is NOT a hoax page. There is no mention (except for one small note at the bottom of the page) of the hoax. The evidence was collected a decade before the hoax even appeared. The user who requested this is on a campaign to try to make this look like a hoax page when it is not. It cites space enthusiasts and journals, not hoax advocates. Please leave this page to be what it is intended, a catalog of independent accounts of the Moon landings. 'Independent tracking' is not a suitable title, because it excludes evidence such as Moon Rocks. Gravitor 01:20, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

• Support move request. "Evidence" is a POV term that should be avoided in article titles. It naturally cast the assumption that the topic needs evidence of some sort as if it was on trial. I can see the contention regarding moon rocks so I can support a different titles that excludes the words evidence. Perhaps Independent corroboration of the Apollo Moon landings ? 205.157.110.11 03:57, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Comments copied from (deleted) Talk:Independent evidence for the Apollo Moon landings by Stemonitis 13:03, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

The information should be merged with both the moon landings article and the moon landing hoax page. Right now this page basically constitutes a POV fork. WesleyDodds 01:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I am removing the listing related to this from the Wikipedia:Requested moves page, because that page does not deal with merge discussions. The merge discussion itself can continue, of course. Dekimasuよ! 06:05, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

If this should be moved anywhere it's to the Moon Landing page itself as it corroborates the official line that the moon landings happened. A page discussing the potential moon conspiracy should do just that. One page for the official view and substantiating evidence. One page for the conspiracy view and substantiating evidence. My 2c. VonBlade 14:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I think that would be a POV fork, which is against policy. Bubba73 (talk), 15:14, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Fork or not, the moon landing conspiracy/hoax is one of the most famous conspiracy theories out there, right behind Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories. I think it deserves its own page. So, my vote is against merging. Shostie 00:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not neutral? Not accurate? Apparently the hoax article isn't disputed...

What's with the not-neutral/accurate tags? The hoax article doesn't have any of these tags on, but then again, as one editor pointed out, the hoax theorists are a small group with a big voice.

I understand that since this is independent evidence, it may be disputed as it is not official, but shouldn't the same tags at least be applied to the hoax accusations page?

The Soviet Union were said to have tracked NASA to the moon, the equipment is proven to be there to this day, etc. etc. And as the Flat Earth Society "rightly" point out, they can't have been real because the Earth shown was a sphere. (So no ones ever been into space??)

That's just my opinion, and I've got nothing against the editors of either articles, I just think it should be fair: if we're to say that this article is disputed, I'm pretty sure most people will agree that the hoax accusations are disputed. --J. Atkins (talk | contribs) 11:08, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I think you are suggesting that the tag should be removed here. I agree. Bubba73 (talk), 13:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to remove the tag. I don't see what is not neutral. The tag says to see the talk page, but I don't see anything about it here. Bubba73 (talk), 13:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Does this count as indpeendent evidence?

The third bulleted paragraph at Examination of Apollo moon photos#There are no stars in any of the photos (the one starting with "payload restrictions") talks about how UV photographs taken with a UV camera showing the Earth with stars in the background agrees with data obtained later with a European satellite. Does this count as independent evidence? Bubba73 (talk), 21:41, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge tag

I have altered the merge tag. As this article is of a decent size, and can stand alone, it is appropriate that it should stand alone from the Apollo Moon Landing hoax accusations article, however, as Apollo missions tracked by independent parties covers much of the same material and is directly related, that seems the more appropriate merge. SilkTork 13:50, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Agree. Bubba73 (talk), 15:44, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

If this article is merged with the other, which one will be the title - Independent evidence for Apollo Moon Landings or Apollo missions tracked by independent parties? Branson03 18:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The former, because it would encompass the latter. Bubba73 (talk), 21:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The former is Independent evidence for Apollo Moon Landings, right? Just want to make sure. Branson03 16:12, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but it isn't really clear - independent of what? NASA? The U.S. government? The U.S.?

Merged. Editing still to be done. SilkTork 17:14, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Talk:Apollo missions tracked by independent parties

Brought over. SilkTork 17:14, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV fork

This page is a POV fork of Independent evidence for Apollo Moon landings. It has been started in an attempt to delete content from that page, following a content dispute that remains unresolved. That page is still protected, and the creation of this page is yet another attempt to avoid consensus building and find an administrative alternative to collaborative editing. Gravitor 08:43, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Could you explain why you think that this article is a POV fork? In particular, could you explain what POV it is catering to, and that POV that it is ignoring? Also, could you please discuss changes on the talk page? I reverted your deletion and redirect. Lunokhod 10:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Gravitor, There is no consensus on your article. It only looks like it because it hasn't been edited for awhile. This article is moving towards consensus, because everyone (except you and Carfiend) thinks this was a good idea. Branson03 15:45, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

This is pretty funny given that the previous article was Gravitor's content fork from the hoax article. Wahkeenah 19:47, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see any POV in this article. It is a simple statement of facts. Bubba73 (talk), 21:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

This is an attempt to make an end run around the article that is currently locked - to avoid having to use Wikipedia process and reach consensus. Gravitor 00:14, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Can you provide some specific verifiable, reliable sources that have evidence that these observations did not take place? Bubba73 (talk), 00:44, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Which observations? Gravitor 22:09, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Message for Gravitor

Gravitor: I apologize in advance, but I am no longer going to respond to you until you start responding to the questions asked of you on the talk pages. If you read through these, you will see that most of us have responded to every concern you have brought up (even though you might have disagreed). You, on the other hand, consistently evade our questions. As one example: Why don't you answer my question above as to why you think that this article is a POV fork, and describe that POV that the article is catering to? I am glad to see that your level of disruptive behavior has diminished somewhat since the filing of the RfC on your behavior, but as a professional editor in real life, I still find your behavior unacceptable. So, once again, I apologize for ignoring you in the future; you are just a colossal waste of my time. Lunokhod 09:38, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I accept your apology. Gravitor 22:31, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with evidence article

This should be merged into the original article - as above - this is a POV fork. We did not go 11:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose the user who put the merge tag on has only 4 edits on wikipedia. Most likely he/she hasn't read the entire talk page on the evidence article. As we all know this page was agreed by most that it should be created, and the rest of the stuff we are dealing with now. Gravitor said that it has nothing to do with the hoax. But it does! Who needs evidence if they already believe that the moon landings happened. This article puts the old one into a new POV, one that more people will want to read. 6% of Americans don't believe the moon landings happened. so 94% of Americans would not want to look at an article with evidence of the moon landings. This one has to do with tracking and observations of apollo missions. The other one's title doesn't fit most of the sections. Evidence of Moon Landings has nothing to do with the missions, which is one of the sections. And last, on the Independent Evidence article, We did not go said: "Leave it as it is - no need to merge, and certainly not delete." Then he puts the merge tag on one of the articles and not the other. Branson03 12:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• I fail to see how this is a POV fork. Bubba73 (talk), 23:38, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose - the reason this is here was to split it off from that very same article, see the talk page there where it is discussed ad nauseum. I too fail to see how this is a point of view fork, and would appreciate somebody setting out for me, using very small words, how it is such. LeeG 03:17, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

We did not go is just saying it is a POV Fork, because Gravitor said it was. POV Forks is when the NPOV rule is broken. The article is in a NPOV. For We did not go, a non-NPOV would be if the hoax article said that it is fact, not a theory, because it has never (*and never will be*) proven. (The *s represent a non-NPOV statement). Branson03 22:44, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't even think that We did not go is coming back. Branson03 14:31, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose - as Gravitor kept saying, "This has nothing to do with the hoax." OK, now I'm quoting Gravitor, which is scary. But that by itself does not disqualify my opinion on the matter. :) Wahkeenah 23:20, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support - this is a clear POV fork. Gravitor 14:54, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Please, explain why this is a POV fork, I have read the WP:POV_fork page, and I do not understand how this is such. Feel free to assume I know nothing about WP policies, and start from first principles. LeeG 21:17, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, please explain. This is not written in a POV, it is just a statement of facts. If this article is a POV fork, Then the page User:Branson03 is a POV fork. Branson03 18:03, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I see that Gravitor has posted here, and on several other pages, but has not answered a very simple question. As a result I conclude the stance cannot be justified, therefore I'll remove the merge tag from this page sometime tonight (again giving more than adequate time for a response). LeeG 17:48, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

• Support - this is a POV fork that should be deleted. Carfiend 00:04, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Result of this debate was keep (oppose), because it is not a POV Fork after reviewing WP:POV_fork. How is it a POV Fork, I will answer that for everyone: It's not! Branson03 00:45, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

On what basis did you announce the result? Who decided how long the poll was to last, or what margin the vote needed to be? Oh, you, because you can make whatever rules fit your POV, I forgot! It looks like a tie to me at this point. Gravitor 01:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I was speaking because the tag was removed as on the talk page. Branson03 01:19, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jodrell Bank

I saw a show on TV that showed tracking of Apollo by Jodrell Bank. In the dopler, you could definitely see that they had landed on the moon. This website discusses Jodrell's tracking of unmanned missions. Is there a source of their tracking of manned lunar missions? Bubba73 (talk), 19:14, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Here is another mention of it. Bubba73 (talk), 19:17, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Add this

Link to the Elaine Halbedel photos: [1]. Cesarakg 03:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge edit

I think I have merged the material so there is no duplication of material, and no evidence has been lost. Though I would welcome someone casting their eye over the whole thing. SilkTork 17:40, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Future plans that may generate evidence

I've removed most of this section again. It's simply original research and the cites say nothing about the speculation it contains.

This NASA link is about sightings of Mars landing sites. It says nothing about the moon, nor does it speculate anything about seeing the Apollo landing sites. And this page has nothing to say about photographing Apollo landing sites, as the cite claims it does. I've left the last cite in, as it least it says what the article claims it says, however, it remains speculations, --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 14:00, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

It is not enough to say; "it's been done on Mars, so therefore could be done on the Moon", as this; "The Descent Module of the Apollo landers, lunar rovers, ALSEP and perhaps the flags could be seen from orbit. The much smaller Mars landers have been photographed from Mars Orbit." effectively states. Says who? It is speculation by a Wikipedia editor. Perhaps good speculation, but speculation all the same. The cite provided merely shows it happening on Mars, it says nothing about the moon. So what we have here is original research, or at the very least original synthesis. Either way; not acceptable. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 20:16, 2 March 2008 (UTC)