Talk:Ich bin ein Berliner/Archive 2

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Contents 1 "Jelly doughnut" urban legend (the long version) 2 Overstating the fallacy of "jelly doughnut" 3 Edited the donut legend, cut alot of irelevant information, did this and that 4 This Article Is Entirely POV. 5 Donut: "Ich bin ein Berliner" is better German than "Ich bin Berliner"! 6 {Fact}

"Jelly doughnut" urban legend (the long version)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ich_bin_ein_Berliner&oldid=73298058

A common urban legend asserts that Kennedy made an embarrassing grammatical error by saying "Ich bin ein Berliner," referring to himself not as a citizen of Berlin, but as a common pastry:

Kennedy should have said "Ich bin Berliner" to mean "I am a person from Berlin." By adding the indefinite article ein, his statement implied he was a non-human Berliner, thus "I am a jelly doughnut". The statement was followed by uproarious laughter.

The legend stems from a play on words with Berliner, the name of a doughnut variant filled with jam or plum sauce that is thought to have originated in Berlin. This urban legend is largely unknown in Germany, where Kennedy's speech is considered a landmark in the country's postwar history.

The legend can be deconstructed on a number of points:

• While there is a "jam doughnut" variant that is common in Berlin, it is only known as Pfannkuchen (pancake) in the city and nearby regions. The name "Berliner" is based on etymologic travel: other parts of Germany picked up the pastry under the name of Berliner Pfannkuchen (= pancake from Berlin), which in turn has been shortened to Berliner. That name has travelled further abroad and is now known in some English-speaking regions. In the 1960s however the term "Berliner" for the pastry sounded strange to people in Berlin.

• There is no grammatical error in Kennedy's statement; the indefinite article does not change its meaning. In German, the statement of origin "Ich bin ein Brandenburger" (I am from Brandenburg) is more common than "Ich bin Brandenburger", but both are correct. The article "ein" can be used as a form of emphasis: it implies "just one of many." As Kennedy did stress the "ein", the usage was, according to German linguist Jürgen Eichhoff [1], "not only correct, but the one and only correct way of expressing in German what the President intended to say."

• The telling of laughter may stem from an associated incident based on the simultaneous interpretation of his speech from English to German (which is the reason for the many pauses apparent in the audio recordings even that most tapes do not carry the interpreter's voice). After the president said "Ich bin ein Berliner" the first time, he was applauded, and a few seconds later he added jokingly, "I appreciate my interpreter translating my German!" This statement was followed by laughter and applause. That timeline fact is evident, so there was no laughter connected to the German phrase but to the next English phrase.

The origins of the legend are obscure.

Request for verification: Regarding the origins of this story, I seem to recall fairly clearly reading it in Tom Burnham's Dictionary of Misinformation (Thomas Y Crowell, 1975 edition). The passage was something to the effect of "While Kennedy wanted to say 'I am a Berliner, when he used the words 'ein Berliner' he in fact said 'I am a jelly doughnut.' 'Berliner' refers to a resident of Berlin; 'ein Berliner' refers to a jelly doughnut." (If not there, then Peter Farb's Word Play: What Happens When People Talk (Random House, 1974 edition [paperback].) I don't have those books available but it would be easy to check and clarify the origin of the story.--Paraprosdokian 19:54, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

One prominent instance of its re-telling was in 1988 when William J. Miller erroneously wrote in an April 30 New York Times article:

What they did not know, but could easily have found out, was that such citizens never refer to themselves as "Berliners." They reserve that term for a favorite confection often munched at breakfast. So, while they understood and appreciated the sentiments behind the President's impassioned declaration, the residents tittered among themselves when he exclaimed, literally, "I am a jelly-filled doughnut."

Although it has no basis in fact, the legend has since been repeated by reputable media, such as the BBC [2], The Guardian [3], a Political Bloopers segment on MSNBC's Countdown with Keith Olbermann [4], and in several books about Germany written by English-speaking authors. Native speakers will not recognize a grammatical error but they might catch the play on words if they are from a region outside of Berlin.

As for the creation of the speech, it had been reviewed by journalist Robert Lochner, who was educated in Germany, and had been practiced several times in front of numerous Germans, including Berlin Mayor Willy Brandt. As the speech was known to be important, the German parts had been chosen carefully and the many video and audio recordings of the event show only enthusiastic applause following the statement. During the speech Kennedy used the phrase twice. He also used the phrase to end his speech. However, Kennedy did pronounce the sentence with a strong Boston accent, reading from his note "ish bin ein Bearleener," which he had written out phonetically.

Perpetuators of the legend cite a parallel with the word "Hamburger." As "Berliner" may refer either to a doughnut or to a person from Berlin, so "Hamburger" may refer to a beef sandwich or to someone from Hamburg. But the parallel is only superficial because these toponyms have different usage. Only in modern times the citizens of Berlin have recognized that other regions call their "Pfannkuchen" by the name of "Berliner". Common souvenirs in Berlin depicting a doughnut covered with the inscription "Ich bin ein Berliner," which are often thought by American tourists to refer to this legend, represent little more than a contemporary play on words.

Overstating the fallacy of "jelly doughnut"

While it seems to be the consensus that "ich bin ein Berliner" is grammatically correct for "I am a citizen of Berlin", it may be worthwhile to point out that the translation to "I am a jelly-filled doughnut" is not illegitimate. That is to say, if Kennedy had meant to say "I am a jelly-filled doughnut" in German, he could have said "ich bin ein Berliner", correct?

What I'm getting at is that the article implies that the jelly doughnut thing is a complete mistranslation on par with saying it means "I am an automobile transmission", and I think that that tone should be improved upon. —wfaulk 23:30, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

All right, if you can phrase this in a way that doesn't imply that there's something to this legend after all, please do so. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 13:26, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

What a tempest in a teapot. I once asked a German-born colleague about this story. He acknowledged that Germans understood that JFK was slightly incorrect in his German grammar, that it could be interpreted as calling himself a jelly doughnut, and that no one cared because it was the sincerity behind it that counted: "We knew what he meant." Wahkeenah 05:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

The point is that although "Ich bin ein Berliner" could be interpreted to mean "I am a jelly doughnut", it doesn't have to be interpreted that way. The urban legend is that Kennedy got his German grammar wrong and what he said could only be interpreted to mean "jelly doughnut", and that simply isn't true. He said a sentence that's syntactically ambiguous, but that has one sensible interpretation and one absurd interpretation. —Angr 08:11, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

And my point is that my German colleague did not consider it an absurd interpretation of the words themselves, just that it wasn't worth writing page after page about it. Maybe it's time to archive this talk page, which goes back 2 or 3 years on this overkilled subject. Wahkeenah 09:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

The point is that you are still stretching the attribution of being homonymous words: it did not need emphasis or any performance to "make" it into something that "yeah, we know what he meant", like being nice to an uninformed person. The standard German interpretation of "ich bin ein <name of town>" is simply that of a citizen of the named town, equally for Berliner, Frankfurter, Wiener, Hamburger or any other place in the world. - any other interpretation is very verrrrrryyyyy remote. The only way to let a native German pick up the pun is to say "Ich bin ein Hamburger" while holding a Hamburger in the air and pointing on it. Everything else would not work. Guidod 22:55, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

My friend was a native of Germany, so I'll take his word uber alles. Wahkeenah 23:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Go and ask him if it is a stretched interpretation. He has been merily agreeing on the fact that it is homonymous sentence - you are interpreting it being on a similar level. Which is plain wrong. Go and ask him. or just take the word of the very many native Germans on this talk page. IMO, you colleague has been nice to you and that's about it. Guidod 23:24, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Later. Right now, I've got a craving for a Hamburger and a Berliner. :b Wahkeenah 23:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I heard this "urban legend" from a native-German German language teacher in 1977. She said it was an amusing error, but the German people understood and appreciated what JFK meant. I think calling it an "urban-legend" is an unsubstantiated POV. I too feel like a Berliner. --Ray Eston Smith Jr 18:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Keep in mind the part that is an urban legend is that Germans did not understand and appreciate what he meant, but thought he was a fool. The fact that he said something that could be amusing (in another context, most likely) is not in dispute. --Dhartung | Talk 08:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

At least, the urban legend is that what he said was grammatically wrong (it wasn't) but close enough that Germans understood what he meant. What he said was grammatically fine in the meaning he intended, but it could be interpreted the other way as well. —Angr 12:44, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Let's assert it once more: it was not just fine /in the meaning he intended/ - it is generally fine, valid and correct. In any general context it can not be misunderstood. All the homonymous part is merily a play on words, a pun, and it's born in the USA. That fact will still be there even when the US origin is being deleted from the text. There is not the slightest root for the legend in Berlin, Germany or the German native-speakers. Guidod 14:13, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me, but I did not "delete the US origin from the text". If you'd read my edit summary (or any of the remarks I've made here or, indeed, any of my edits to the article), you'd see this is the same point I have been making all along. BTW, I am myself one of the Wikipedians in Berlin. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 15:35, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't mind the intention of the change as shown in the comment but the more the text is being trimmed down the more we see another one arguing for the thruthful part in the myth - see the section below (my comment above was given the same minute as the one below). I don't think the wording is strict enough at the moment - it is too much encyclopedic, too much just stating the fact, and that's surely not enough to kill a myth. Guidod 17:18, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I am amazed to see that "native speakers" allegedly confirm the doughnut legend. OK, so JFK could have been understood as saying "I'm a doughnut". About as much as someone saying "I'm a New Yorker" could be understood as saying they are a magazine, a car, or a train. --Thorsten1 20:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Edited the donut legend, cut alot of irelevant information, did this and that

I've made a couple of edits as a native-speaker of German, as it is closer to encyclopediatric standards in my opinion, I've cut some irrelevant info. Comments are welcome. I also changed the translation from "I am a citizen of Berlin" to a more direct and correct translation, "I am a Berlinian", though I don't know if it isn't grammatically wrong in English. Everyone's welcome to revert it. "I am a citizen of Berlin" would be "Ich bin ein Bürger Berlins" in German, the interpreter translated the Roman sentence to German as well,"Vor zweitausend Jahren war der stolzeste Satz ‚Ich bin ein Bürger Roms‘. Heute, in der Welt der Freiheit, ist der stolzeste Satz ‚Ich bin ein Berliner‘." I^NT_ER^NA_ZI 15:28, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

The irrelevant info was quite in need. Shorter explanation = more room for interpretation = 101 fool to say "there must be something in it". The current text is too soft even that I must admit it reflects better the boring tone of a lexicon entry. Cheers, Guidod 22:38, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I can say my German teacher told us he said, "I am a jelly donut". Does anyone have a reliable source on the jelly donut interpretation? Alan.ca 05:23, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

So you say that your German teacher was a very uninformed person then? That's a bit rude, isn't it... Guidod 14:05, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I am native German. I saw/heard on TV JFK`'s words: Ich bin ein Berliner. We all understood what he was saying: I am a citizen of Berlin!!! We were happy and so proud that he ,in that point of time, was as well a Berliner!!! and believe me all this yello-filled donut stuff did not enter our German minds at that time!!! We and JFK wanted to say to the rest of the world: we are here, we will stay free and democratic.!!!!Thank you JFK.84.143.247.88

This Article Is Entirely POV.

Well, for starters, it sounds like someone with a bone to pick wrote this entire article. As far as I've been informed, the line *was* indeed ambiguous, but that the German people automatically understood Kennedy's intent.

Calling it an Urban Legend amounts to throwing it in the same category as Alligators in the Sewers and Ghost Hitchhikers, and is a VERY poor choice of wording. It would sound better as "Common Misconceptions" or something to that effect. Again, the focus of this article seems to tell you that there was NO WAY that it could be ambiguous in any way, when in fact it is.
Blaiseball 23:45, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

The urban legend is not that what he said was ambiguous. The urban legend is that what he said was grammatically incorrect in German, and that the audience laughed because he called himself a jelly doughnut, and it is absolutely untrue. What he said was grammatically ambiguous, but of the two possible meanings one is sensible and the other nonsensical. Because listeners normally assume the person they're listening to is following the Gricean maxims, probably the vast majority of the audience understood his sentence the way he intended it, and the other meaning only occurred to them later when someone pointed it out to them. (Especially since the jelly doughnuts in question aren't even called Berliner in Berlin, they're called Pfannkuchen.) —Angr 16:07, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree that this article needs yet another rewrite, since it is muddled and it sets up a straw man to knock down, which is not what a Wikipedia article should be doing. Perhaps we should create a new Wikipedia Category: Articles Trying to Prove That Jokes are Not Funny. The salient facts are that Kennedy unwittingly used a double entendre, that the ambiguity went unnoticed by his audience and that humorists subsequently developed this into a funny anecdote in Germany and abroad. The claim in the current edit that "The urban legend is not widely known in Germany" is bad faith, since it suggests that Germans are unaware of the double entendre. Most educated people who have ever listened to a Buttenredner know about it. In Hamburg, where berliners are a popular pastry, the phrase, "ich bin ein Berliner," has become a tired joke. Puns are deprecated in German humour and some Germans (vide some of the entries on this page) devote inordinate attention to "disproving" them.

So could I suggest we rename the relevant section the Jelly Doughnut Double Meaning (or Jam Doughnut ...) and re-order it: first the humorous story, then the ponderous discussion about whether or not it is funny, and finally perhaps a reference to the fact that people in distant parts of the world may possibly have supposed that this was a factual rather than a humorous storification of the speech. With the addendum "Citation needed". Tacitus 21:58, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, and again, and again... the phrase is not ambigious to listeners in this construction, just kill that from you mind. The grammatic construction of "Ich bin ein [name of town]" will strictly refer to one single and unique semantic interpretation being a phrase of origin of a person saying it. You have to get back to the mere syntax level to stretch it into something off common sense. And yes, Büttenredner clowns are including many many many play on words - even the most remote ones that you need to think about ten minutes to catch the idea. But that's not commonly called an ambiguity - it's a pun and not a double entendre. And it is very sure an urban myth because other than your claim the anecdote did not develop in Germany but it is made in the USA. The possible misunderstanding on the spot is an ascribed characteristics that could only spring out of the minds of non-native speakers. Guidod 00:08, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

This article definitely does express a personal POV. While there are many references to reputable journals that do claim that Kennedy did say this, the article does not mention any counter-sources at all. This means that this is someones personal view of what Kennedy meant and has no place in Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Captainspirou (talk • contribs) 00:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Donut: "Ich bin ein Berliner" is better German than "Ich bin Berliner"!

I am a German. I read about that donut legend, which to my mind is very absurd. Some stated that the use of the german article "ein" would be an indicator that he doesn't mean a person, but the jelly donut. Sorry - completely wrong!

Let's compare the two German sentences:

• "Ich bin ein Berliner."
• "Ich bin Berliner."

The strict semantics of both are almost identical, although the connotation/interpretation of both has a slight divergence:

• "Ich bin ein Berliner." -> I am a person living in Berlin, or coming from Berlin. Like: "I am one of many people who might be called 'Berliner'." Emphasizes the personal bond to Berlin, and an association to a probably larger group. The message of this variant is that Kennedy feels a personal association with all the people from Berlin.
• "Ich bin Berliner." -> Being a Berliner is part of what makes me up. Like: "Being Berliner is something that differentiates me from other people." Emphasizes that being a Berliner is an important trait of that person. This variant is more personal, stressing less that Kennedy is part of a larger group who are all Berliners. It just says that Kennedy has the property of being a Berliner, not more.

Obviously, the first variant is the better one. It is the one that Kennedy used. If Kennedy hat used the latter, this would surely have been irritating for the audience. Like, as if Kennedy would spontaneously come out with the public revelation that he was not born in the US, but in Germany! What a sensation. MadocDoyu 11:46, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

MadocDoyu is absolutely right. "Ich bin Berliner" is the informal variant. Thorsten1 is also right with his "I'm a New Yorker"/"I'm a magazine" comparision. I must know that because I am not only a German (which never eat Doughnuts for breakfast, but with their afternoon coffee) but ich bin in fact ein Berliner 84.190.155.103 00:13, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

{Fact}

In fact, the statement is grammatically correct and cannot be misunderstood in that context. The urban legend is largely unknown in Germany ^{[citation needed]},...

There has been no native German so far to have known this legend before reading the Wikipedia article. The "largely" is just a tribute to that nerve-shattering "I known someone" of our US comrades. As the legend is strictly unknown in Central Europe there has never been an incentive to make something like a "poll" about it. Drop that ^{[citation needed]} sh** and keep it that way. Guidod 22:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree the {{fact}} tag is rather pointless, since you can't prove a negative, but it isn't true that the Wikipedia article is the only way native Germans could encounter the legend. Germans do talk to Americans, you know. And sometimes those Americans say, "I heard that Ich bin ein Berliner means 'I am a jelly doughnut'. Is that true?" So I think there are a fair number of Germans who know that Americans think that JFK said something other than what he meant. —Angr 08:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, may be I was misguided here as none of my friends in the US did bring it up so far. Still I'd maintain that there is no hearsay among Germans - if there is a German text about the legend then it is basically pointing to the US myth. Guidod 12:37, 18 August 2007 (UTC)