Talk:Ibn Battuta

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	Ibn Battuta was one of the good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result January 19, 2004 Refreshing brilliant prose Not kept December 20, 2005 Good article nominee Listed February 6, 2007 Good article reassessment Delisted Current Status: Delisted good article

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Contents 1 Traveller from an antique land 2 Makkah 3 Merge completed 4 Pronounce 5 Map of his travels 6 Which madhhab is correct? 7 Good Article review 8 Social Indicators in the Islamic kingdoms??? 9 Merge discussion: 10 Deletion of Section Social indicators in the Islamic kingdoms (POV and original research) 11 Which reference ...

[edit] Traveller from an antique land

I would like to voice thanks for this article. When I saw it, I thought I know that name, but I have forgotten where I read it!. On reading the article, I recalled that it was a hilarious parody of reviewers' comments within the framework of Ozymandias treated as a scientific research report.

The opening line:

• I met a traveller from an antique land...

was greeted with:

• As the report appears to be based on field observations by another geologist, we suggest that joint authorship would be appropriate.

In the rewritten version Shelley's co-author was given as Ibn Battuta. At long last I now get the joke.

I would share more of the original but I believe that the above marks the boundaries of fair use for copyright purposes. --Alan Peakall 17:46 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

The full rewritten poem is well worth looking up on Google Books :-) It ends up getting retitled

Twin limb-like basalt columns ('trunkless legs') near Wadi Al-Fazar, and their relationship to plate tectonics.

Ibn Batuta¹ and P B Shelley²

The piece, called "Preparing Scientific Papers", is by N.S. Haile. It first appeared in Nature 268 100 (1977), and was later included in Robert Lemmerman Weber, More Random Walks in Science. CRC Press, 1982, pp. 14-16. Jheald 17:39, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Makkah

Is this page intended to be read by native English speakers who are not Muslims? If so, this sentence is pretty foolish: "...Ibn Battuta went on a hajj -- a pilgrimage to Makkah." If someone does not know what the hajj is, there's about zero chance that he/she/it will ever have heard of Makkah, and just about a dead certainty that "pilgrimage to Mecca" would have been understood instantly. Of course, they can follow the link to find out what Makkah is; but then, they could follow the link to hajj, couldn't they? Why give the non-explanation here?

To insist on the use of a name not used by major English-language news media or reference works (cf. http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/x/x-m1akka.asp ), and not known to about 90% of native speakers of the language, is to insist on politics in place of communication. Dandrake 01:33, Jan 20, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Merge completed

The Ibn Batuda article (ie, about the same person) is now merged with this one, and changed to a redirect to here. Merge tag therefore removed.--cjllw | TALK 2005 July 1 08:20 (UTC)

[edit] Pronounce

How is his name pronounced?

According to a pronunciation guide, it's IB-uhn ba-TOO-tuh. Unfortunately the person who photocopied it didn't source it.

[edit] Map of his travels

Would it be possible to include one, and for other early explorers?

If you make it it will be so. 76.172.64.179 06:30, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Which madhhab is correct?

In the beginning of this article Ibn Battuta is described as belonging to the Maliki madhhab, but at the bottom he is included in the category of notable Shafi'is. The former seems more likely, given their prevalence in North Africa and particularly among the Berbers, but I don't know which is correct. Does anyone know, so we can fix this contradiction? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Breadhat (talk • contribs) 28 November 2006.

Maliki is correct, at least according to Mackintosh-Smith's translation and notes. During his stay in Delhi Ibn Battuta was made Maliki qadi of the city. Don't know where or why the Shafi'i category was applied, should probably be removed.--cjllw | TALK 08:34, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll go ahead and fix it. (Forgot to sign my previous comment.)Breadhat 02:00, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

's ok, I've gone ahead and replaced the Shafi'is category with cat:Malikis.--cjllw | TALK 08:10, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article review

In a 3 to 0 vote on GA/R, this article has been delisted, primarily for only having sparse references and some writing problems. Review archived here: Wikipedia:Good article review/Archive 14. Homestarmy 13:36, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Social Indicators in the Islamic kingdoms???

Clearly it does not make up any part of Biography and is only excerpts of the Book quoted 16 times. It might have a place on WikiSource but isnt suitable for this Biography. --Webkami 15:36, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Considering that Ibn Battuta was an author , observer and traveller ...quotations from his book in an article about him are entirely relevant . In any case we know about Ibn Battuta from his own writings , if you know about him from other sources please quote . Further the 16 quotes are from precise pages ...now what problem would you have with that??

Dident miss my attention off course that you visited and added edits to three articles I have contributed to in a single session ....should I read into this or is it a credible coincidence. CheersIntothefire 16:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The place it should go is WikiQuotes. Lets have somebody else a word about it. I do roam around wikipedia and correct things I am sure of and question things that look suspicious to me. I dont see any harm if I question a few things in one session? --Webkami 09:19, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Webkami you put a comment ....I answered comprehensively providing reasons ...but I have no direct response to my question -see first para of my response . Then you say you roam wikipedia fixing things that "look suspecious to me " . Request please specifically and openly spell out your suspesions on my posts in this article " cheers Intothefire 12:44, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry if I wasnt clear.

• I have read your reasoning but I am saying this many quotes should not be there in article, one or two seems fine rest should got in Wiki Quotes.
• The thing is that some of our interests are same so I happen to visit some of the articles that you edited. Now I have this question which I posted here, another question which I posted on relevant article. Nothing personal.

Have fun... --Webkami 15:47, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Well then  :-D Intothefire 16:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge discussion:

Note: It has been suggested that Travelling route of Ibn Batuta be merged into this article since "the other article contains little information, that belongs in this article instead". Please voice your opinions below: --HAL2008 talk Contributions 02:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

• Support — The other article adds nothing to the topic. –Taranah 05:08, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
• Support - but it must be woven into the prose for this article - just copying the list over would look incongrous. --Joopercoopers 14:53, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support - There is no reason whatsoever why these two articles should not be merged already, so I agree..Taharqa 22:24, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion of Section Social indicators in the Islamic kingdoms (POV and original research)

The section Social indicators in the Islamic kingdoms sums up all negative stereo-types about Arab/Islam society and uses random fragments of Ibn Battuta to illustrate the point. This unsourced interpretion is not based on secondary sources. The section is unencyclopedic and should be removed.S711 12:29, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree with the deletion of this section. Quotes without secondary source analysis to put them in context are misleading. Thanks for improving the article! Taranah 21:45, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Taranah your double standards are astonishing .

Lets take a look at your contribution in restoring an entire section in the article on Ibn Khaldun viz Assessment on different civilizations and your edit details
Revision as of 19:58, 18 May 2007 (edit) (undo) Taranah (Talk | contribs)
(restoring disputed section until a workable replacement is available)
Newer edit →

On this article you oppose direct and referenced quotes taken from Ibn Batuta .
On article Ibn Khaldūn you oppose removal of direct quotes from Ibn Khaldun

Apparently you dont have a problem concerning Africans ..in the article on Ibn Khaldun the section I reproduce below .....makes me wonder why this selective amnesia ?

Ibn Khaldūn writes on black people:

The only people who accept slavery are the Negroes, owing to their low degree of humanity and proximity to the animal stage. Other persons who accept the status of slave do so as a means of attaining high rank, or power, or wealth, as is the case with the Mameluke Turks in the East and with those Franks and Galicians who enter the service of the state [in Spain].^[1]

As to the point made by .S711 regarding
1)POV and original research
Where s the POV in the quotes ? and what is original in the quotes ?
2)negative stereo-types about Arab/Islam society
these are Quotes of Ibn Batuta and recorded here in an article about Ibn Batuta . 3) not based on secondary sources
were I to provide secondary sources will you persist with this charge ...or come up with a new one .
4)unsourced interpretion
would you like to interpret them ?
5)unencyclopedic ,
quotes from Ibn Batuta in an article on Ibn Batuta are unencyclopedic ?

The basis for objections provided are deceptive ...your objections are actually only against this information being made available .
Cheers Intothefire 12:54, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I concur, this section is anti Islamic stereo type at it's best. The section should be renamed negative social customs as opposed to it's deceptive title, which I believe is malicious. The fact that Ibn Battuta's honesty in recording the malpractice and negatives of a culture is being misrepresented without the positives to also counter and balance this is absolutely atrocious. In answer to your points;

1)"POV and original research"

Where s the POV in the quotes ? and what is original in the quotes ?

The POVis in being selective about negatives, and not affording ample balance to the opposites.

2)negative stereo-types about Arab/Islam society

these are Quotes of Ibn Batuta and recorded here in an article about Ibn Batuta .

Again, where is the balance? But I think you KNEW what you were doing here...

3) not based on secondary sources
were I to provide secondary sources will you persist with this charge ...or come up with a new one .

If the article were balanced instead of misleading as you have clearly done, I doubt anyone will level any charge against you. But another secondary anti POV ist source wont help here, but a neutral balanced one (if you can find one with your POV...) would be ideal.

4)unsourced interpretion
would you like to interpret them ?

Answer the point rather than rhetorical spin, which your article clearly is.

5)unencyclopedic ,
quotes from Ibn Batuta in an article on Ibn Batuta are unencyclopedic ?

Yep. When you represent info in an unbalanced, negatives only way, then that this POV which is blatantly unencyclopedic. Do the math.

Instead of dealing with the point at hand, you try and muster evidence against the user? Your history shows your anti Arab stance. Please work for a balanced article.--Fitnessisgood 13:32, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

lol -welcome "new user" Fitnessisgood...you find my history anti arab stance and where did you get that from "new user" ...please list the articles here "new user "...they will add substance along with this one here of the delete team at work on my posts . Cheers "new user " I could introduce you to user Tigeroo ,he could help you , he s great at deletion

Intothefire 14:27, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I've reverted that selective list of quotes inserted by Intothefire. This is a biographical article on Ibn Battuta, not an article about "social indicators" (whatever that's supposed to mean) and interpretations on aspects of 14thC Islamic cultures. It would be valid to use quotes to illustrate aspects of the narrative, but that doesn't seem to be your purpose- you provide no context for the quotes or any rationale as to why these particular ones add to any understanding of the subject to hand. And while it may be valid to provide in the article some background and description of the context and times during which Ibn Battuta lived, any such assessment needs to be based on notable third-party sources, and not your own personal interpretation of what you think is significant or not. It would be a simple matter to cherry-pick another set of quotes from the text to cobble together an entirely different impression.--cjllw ʘ TALK 02:04, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I think Intothefire has misunderstood my position on the article about Ibn Khaldun. My position is stated clearly, and repeatedly, on the discussion page. In both articles I think lists of quotes without context or secondary source analysis are inappropriate. I firmly agree with cjllw's position, as stated so eloquently above. –Taranah 03:30, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Am not entirely convinced CJLL Wright , but since you happen to be an editor I will not persist with this discussion . I am recording this delete on the talk page in order that this discussion on the deletion may be seen in its total perspective . I do hope that the editor and the other contributors have at least read the book , and when charges are made of one sided selective quotes provided by me they may be in a position to provide other quotes that may balance out the section ....otherwise it seems political correctness in extreme may be misused as a pretext for whitewash. Intothefire 06:43, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there's any need to reproduce the deleted section on this talk page, it is easily accessible through the article history (eg here [1]), should anyone wish to review it. And yes, I have read the book, in fact the same Mackintosh-Smith edition you seem to have been using. As mentioned, I don't think that the purpose of this article is served by filling it (or its talkpg) with quotes, unless they are used to illustrate the narrative and any interpretive commentary on what they portray is attributed to third-party sources. I could just as easily produce another list of quotes, such as "The citizens of Mecca are given to well-doing, of consummate generosity and good disposition, liberal to the poor and to those who have renounced the world, and kindly towards strangers" (p.48), and others in a similar vein. However, since neither you nor I are qualified or citeable sources, constructing such a list for the sole purpose of compiling some overall 'impression' of 14thC Islamic societies would be questionable, and ultimately of little informational value. Regards, --cjllw ʘ TALK 05:01, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Which reference ...

Which book from the references section is the best overall description of ibn Battuta's travels? --Ghostexorcist (talk) 00:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)