Talk:History of the Soviet Union (1985–1991)

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Maybe you should mention the official date and the meeting of the three leaders Yeltsin (Russia), Kravchuk (Ukraine) and Shushkevich (Belarus) in the Bielaviezha forest (Belarus) and them signing the agreement that USSR ceases to exist. rydel 17:40, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 When did USSRs/Russias GDP start falling? 2 Naked Bias 3 Where's the bias??? 4 POV? 5 Gorbachev was a Commie... 6 The beggar photo 6.1 End of the Cold War 7 Hidden inflation 8 Political instability in the Warsaw Pact countries 9 Confusing sentences 10 Alcohol 11 Title change needed? 12 Too long? 13 I'm no professor... 14 Time Warps 15 Incorrect information. 16 Bankruptsy? 17 The worst article ever.

[edit] When did USSRs/Russias GDP start falling?

I checked that since the fall of the USSR Russias GDP (real) had fallen to 1/5 then rebounded to about 4/5. It's still hasn't recovered after 20 odd years. I checked some statistics and Russias GDP was falling since 1988 or so. So can anyone tell me when Russia or the entrie Union hit is peak real GDP? I have a feeling it may have been just before Gorbi took his place as head.

-G

[edit] Naked Bias

This article is not informative, in that it is written with a pronounced bias and opinionation as seen in American cold war propaganda. That is hardly in line with Wikipedia's policy, at least as I understand it - unless of course, Wikipedia is a mouthpiece for US propaganda, which I don't think it is. It should be flagged as disputed, until someone re-edits it properly. Meanwhile devilish ruses such as the "righteous" American propaganda, churned out especially during the Ronald Reagan years and by the Reader's Digest don't hold water anymore - not at least for properly informed people. It is far too late in the day for such deceptions to work anymore... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.56.30.129 (talk) 14:28, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

I have to say that I agree with the first entry here, yet not solely on this page but on every one of the WikiProjetct Soviet Union pages that I have seen so far. On all of them there are hints of American superiority and patriotism, and also those of Russian degradation. As stated, Wikipedia is not a “mouthpiece for American propaganda” nor should such bias be allowed. Most every page under the Wikiproject Soviet Union needs to be marked for clean-up and have the major opinionating articles extricated from them before they are marked as viable sources, or placed in an encyclopedia, for goodness’ sake, which is, by definition, utterly unbiased. Sec'qr-euin 19:24, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Where's the bias???

You should say what exactly is wrong here in your opinion. Just saying that it's "biased" and "propaganda" is just bla bla until you point to specific statements that you believe to be biased. So far -- I've browsed the article and it seems good to me. Lebatsnok 15:23, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

On the night of July 31, 1991 Russian OMON from Riga, the Soviet military headquarters in the Baltics, assaulted the Lithuanian border post in Medininkai and killed seven Lithuanian servicemen. This further weakened the Soviet Union's position, internationally and domestically.

Here is the bias. First of all the Lithuanian "border posts" were illegal. The article fails to mention that. Plus that part of the article is not even logical. It implies that the majority of Soviet population supported Lithuanian secession. Where's the evidence of that? In the article about the American Civil War it doesn't say "President Lincoln's decision to use force against the seceding States weakened the U.S. position internationally and domestically". So what's the deal here?--Auspx 03:09, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV?

"Additionally, economic and military pressures of fighting the Cold War, particularly in matching Ronald Reagan's Star Wars program, bankrupted the inherently weak Communist system."

I'm not a communist, by any means, an anarchist, actually, but that seems very biased and I bet a communist would oppose that skewed attack. Lockeownzj00 00:24, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what a communist would think, but it's a violation of Wikipedia's no original research policies, and that matters. Please go ahead and remove it. 172 04:24, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It is so funny to read that about the country were I lived almost 40 years before move to USA. The author repeats propaganda stamps spreading over the government controlled mass media and developed to wash the brains of young Americans to keep them believe in what they want them believe until kids learn the other language. It's so shocking funny. Wow!

l noticed the same NPOV problem before I came to this talk page. I agree the communist system was inherently weak but to mention it in the article is not respecting NPOV. Martin-C 17:52, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gorbachev was a Commie...

I think that the article implies - or I think it does - that Gorbachev's reforms were anti-Soviet to an extent. Far from it, it appears that he was trying to reform the Soviet Union, and preserve Communism, by introducing modernisation which would improve the state, and actually keep it going... In fact, in an international context, I can see parallels between his reforms and those of Reagan and Thatcher, which occurred at the same time, which were partially to preserve different political systems, but which also had disastrous economic consequences. --MacRusgail 00:49, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

You're correct. Strangely, but it seems that no one remembers now how Gorbachev's "reforms" started. In his first major speech given at '85 Victory day (May 9), he praised Stalin's leadership like no one had since the XX CPSU Congress of 1956. It was rather startling. Then, there were half-hearted measures on "speeding up" the economy ("ускорение"), combined with campaing against alcoholism, which actually turned to destruction of vineyards, halting of production but by no means of consumption of alcoholic beverages, though it nearly paralyzed Soviet finances (when school I worked for then had no cash to pay teachers' salary; no wonder: workers spent their money not on vodka bought in a store but on illegal samogon). ... He definitely tried to save the system, and collapse of the Soviet empires was uninteded consequence of his "reforms." --Barbatus 16:37, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The beggar photo

IMHO, the image is highly POV, unencyclopedic and unrepresentative. Perhaps out of hundreds images representing various facets of life in Russia of the period that one would be OK. But here we have only half-a-dozen, 4 of them of Gorbachev. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 10:06, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, I haven't been to Russia or Ukraine for more than 10 years now, so I can't judge about the current state of affairs, but in the first half of 1990's, right after collapse of the USSR and its social services, it was a terrible sight everywhere ... not only your usual beggars, but clean-dressed elderly women looking for food in garbage. May be it is not relevant to the History of the Soviet Union per se, but it certainly was among very visible results of its downfall. --Barbatus 16:13, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Firstly, the image of "post-Soviet Russia" falls beyound the scope of this article: 1985-91. Secondly, begging in Russia is less common than in some of the European countries, I think. Thirdly, there are shadowy commercial eneterprises who earn more by begging than private individuals. Fourthly, the begging used to be most widespread in downtown Moscow, where foreigners crowd the most. Fifthly, Russia is better off than other CIS members, so "begging in post-Soviet Ukraine" would make as apposite a title. --Ghirlandajo 07:34, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Non-sequiter from the front page:

[edit] End of the Cold War

As the Soviet Union was unraveling, Gorbachev and U.S. President George H.W. Bush declared a U.S.-Soviet strategic partnership at the summit of July 1991, decisively marking the end of the Cold War. President Bush declared that U.S.-Soviet cooperation during the Persian Gulf War in 1990-1991 had laid the groundwork for a partnership in resolving bilateral and world problems. Following the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Russian Federation claimed to be the legal successor to the USSR on the international stage.--anon

The article's current statement, referring to Dec. 1991, "The dissolution of the Soviet Union also ended the longtime Cold War" is inaccurate. The media, Gorbachev, Bush, and most others contemporaries regarded "the end of the Cold War" to have transpired by the end of the Malta summit in Dec. 1989. By the time of the May-June, 1990, summit in D.C. there was a virtually universal consensus that the Cold War had ended. Contemporary journalists, politicians, etc., did not describe the Dec. 1991 dissolution of the Soviet state as "ending the Cold War" because, for them, the Cold War was already over. The article's current statement is based on the misconception that the "end of the Cold War" was coterminous with the end of the Soviet Union.--12/01/07 BW

Exactly, remember that the Gulf War was described as "the first post-Cold War crisis".Auspx (talk) 02:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I see your point. You are correct. Parsecboy (talk) 02:28, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hidden inflation

"Hidden inflation" (in para on introduction of perestroika) is by its nature limited, so why foreground this among economic problems? Unless someone can give evidence to the contrary, I think this should be deleted.--Jack Upland 05:05, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Political instability in the Warsaw Pact countries

"Fraying amongst the members of the Warsaw Pact nations and instability of its western allies, first indicated by Lech Wałęsa's 1980 rise to leadership of the trade union Solidarity, along the western border accelerated, leaving the Soviet Union unable to depend upon its satellite states for protection of its borders."

While there can be no doubt that Poland was plagued by political instablity during the 1980s, the other Warsaw Pact nations remained largely stable and firmly in the grip of "normalization." The GDR remained under Honecker's control, Czechoslovakia and Bulgaria were stable, reform was emerging in Hungary but at a caucious pace, and renegade Romania continued its emulation of North Korea. Political instability in these countries only publicly emerged after Gorbachev began advocating reform throughout the Eastern bloc. In addition to the Gorbachev-inspired waves of political reform, the USSR's renouncement of the Brezhnev Doctrine in 1988 signalled that Moscow would no longer support the Eastern European old guard. This pre-empted the rapid upheavals of 1989.

I disagree. Starting with Hungary in the mid-1980s, there was a definite resurgence in independent action on the part of the Warsaw Pact nations such that intervention that had marked previous uprisings were fundamentally unthinkable. By the time the Berlin Wall fell, there was no Warsaw Pact any longer, with the various European states evolving past totalitarian regimes. The first signs that Eastern Europe could have anything other than a communist future were seen in the Gdansk shipyards. Jtmichcock 02:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

The resurgence of independent action in these states only occured because Moscow not only tolerated it, but, in fact, encouraged such reform. By the late 1980s, the USSR had even gone as far as abandoning long-time slavish allies like East Germany's Honecker and Bulgaria's Zhivkov. Gorbachev's tacit approval made it possible for regime change in these countries. See below.

Gorbachev and Eastern Europe

Charles Gati

From Foreign Affairs, Summer 1987

Extract:

The spirit of Mikhail Gorbachev?s "Moscow Spring" haunts Eastern Europe. While most people in the region?including members of various opposition groups?welcome the changes made and the changes promised in the Soviet Union, and hope for similar changes in Eastern Europe as well, most leaders worry about the likely repercussions.

After all, it happened before that when Moscow sneezed Eastern Europe caught pneumonia. In the aftermath of the 1956 de-Stalinization campaign in the Soviet Union, reformist elements gained the upper hand in Poland and Hungary. Czechoslovakia?s 1968 "Prague Spring" followed Soviet economic reforms in the mid-1960s. But in no case did these Soviet-inspired changes last long. In 1956 reformism in Hungary turned into a popular revolution that prompted Soviet intervention, while the initial gains of the 1956 "Polish October" gradually disappeared. In 1968, another military intervention?"justified" by the Brezhnev Doctrine?put an end to Czechoslovakia?s economic and political reform movement.

In the past, then, while reforms in the Soviet Union proved to be manageable or even reversible, the pressure for change in Eastern Europe proved to be uncontrollable. Will history repeat itself? Will the winds of Gorbachev?s glasnost (openness) and perestroika (restructuring) reach Eastern Europe?and with what consequences?

With East European officials showing signs of aversion to starting Gorbachev-style reforms or accelerating existing ones, most of the region is out of step with the Soviet Union. While in Moscow criticism and self-criticism are in vogue, in East Berlin the party leadership reaffirms its own "correct course," past and present. In Moscow the rehabilitation of Nikolai Bukharin, an early proponent of more tolerant communist rule, is under way; in Prague Alexander Dubcek, leader of the 1968 Prague Spring, remains a nonperson under virtual house arrest. In Moscow the self-management of enterprises is under consideration; in Bucharest President Nicolae Ceausescu asserts that "real socialism" has nothing to do with self-management. In Moscow intellectuals are beginning to be allowed to give voice to their concerns; in Budapest-even in Budapest-the authorities threaten to close down the Writers' Union for having elected a leadership not to the party's liking.

True, the Polish and the Hungarian regimes can see in Gorbachev's initiatives an implicit approval of their own policies and ambitions. Yet even these two regimes, and certainly all the others, except Romania, prefer to praise "promising developments" in the Soviet Union without necessarily seeing them as a guide for their own course or undertaking similar initiatives themselves.

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/19870601faessay7850/charles-gati/gorbachev-and-eastern-europe.html

[edit] Confusing sentences

The following sentences taken from the section, 'The August Coup' makes no sense to me. It looks like the two sentences should be joined together with a comma after 'emergency', but as I have no knowledge on this subject I thought I'd bring it to more knowledgeable peoples' attention, rather than blindly try to fix it myself:

"On August 19, 1991, to prevent the signing of the union treaty by forming the "State Committee on the State Emergency." The "Committee" put Gorbachev (vacationing in the Crimea) under house arrest and attempted to restore the union state."

--Phileas 03:31, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alcohol

The following section deleted:

The first reform under Gorbachev was the 1985 alcohol reform, which was designed to fight wide-spread alcoholism in the Soviet Union. Prices on vodka, wine and beer were lifted, and their sales were restricted. People who were caught drunk at work or in public were prosecuted. Drinking on long-distance trains and in public places was banned. Economically it was a serious blow to the state budget (a loss of approximately 100 billion rubles according to Alexander Yakovlev) after alcohol production migrated to black market economy.

It is an erroneous attribution. Antialcohol campaigns and price rising for vodka started already during Brezhnev. A a seasoned "alcoholic" from these times, I cannot stand this historical falsehood :-). People like me remember "Dazhe yesliu budet vosem, Vsyo ravno yeyo ne brosim! Peredajte Ilyichu, Nam i 10 po plechu!" ("pass over to Ilyich (i.e., leonid Ilyich): se can handle even 10 (roubles per bottle"). The numbers 2.87->3.62->5.12, well known to male population and were source a large number of jokes. But the real assault was by Andropov. I used to be a proud member of the All-Union Abstinence Society, created at these times, and I reverently keep the membership card, but no longer pay dues :-) mikka (t) 01:55, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title change needed?

It seems that a better suited title to fit this page would be the one that many links use: The Collapse of the Soviet Union. This page is generally about the cause, effect, and affects of the collapse of the Soviet Union. Afterall, that is almost exclusively what this page is about. All links and chart names could stay the same, but I think it would be a more fittinf page title: 'The collapse of the Soviet Union'. That, or perhaps another page may be in need.

[edit] Too long?

I feel like this one is too long and should be split into several different articles, including the Fall of the Soviet Union. This is my first comment to an article, but I feel it's worth mentioning.Nashaii 00:14, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Please don't. The article is not long at all, considering the importance and complexity of the subject. 172 | Talk 01:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I'm no professor...

I'm no professor but i found this article informative i learned quite a few things from it. Travis Robinson 23:37, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Time Warps

I don't know about anyone else, but this article was confusing in its time spans. For example, Yeltsin took office on July 12, 1991, and yet Gorbachev was still in power for the August coup? Is anyone else even slightly confused here? 66.31.230.27 21:53, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeltsin was the Russian SSR president, while Gorby was the the head of the Soviet Union, two different things. Parsecboy 22:49, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect information.

The Soviet Union's collapse into its original independent nations began in earnest in 1985.

That's wrong. Many of the Soviet Republics were never independent nations. Before the creation of the Soviet Union they were provinces in Imperial Russia. For example most of the present-day Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan were parts of Imperial Russia for centuries.

To break Gorbachev's opposition, Yeltsin decided to disband the Soviet Union in accordance with the Treaty of the Union of 1922 and therefore to remove Gorbachev and the government of the USSR from power. This was seen as a forced measure to save the country from a complete economic collapse and was at the time widely supported by Russia's population.

Totally wrong. Most of the people were shocked and surprised by the collapse of the USSR. It's true that by December 1991 Gorbachev's approval rating was very low, but this doesn't mean that the majority of the population in Russian SSR or the rest of the Union for that matter wanted the Union to be disbanded. --Auspx 05:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

They may have been part of Imperial Russia for centuries, but were they not independent after World War I? And, if we want to get technical, at various points before being conquered by Russia?

I don't mind your second argument though. I'm sure most people didn't think the USSR would ever collapse when it did. Parsecboy 09:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

After WWI some of the provinces (the Baltic States, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Finland, Eastern Poland) did become independent nations. However what the article here is implying is that all of the former Imperial Russia's provinces (which later became Soviet Republics) became independent nations before the creation of the Soviet Union. That's incorrect. I don't have the map of post-WWI Soviet Russia but I'm sure there never was a country called Ukraine, Belarus, or Kazakhstan before the Soviet Union was created in 1922. --Auspx 03:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

This discussion might be a little stale, but I'd like to point out the articles Ukraine after the Russian Revolution and Ukrainian War of Independence. There was, however short-lived, a Ukrainian political entity between the Russian Revolution and the creation of the USSR. Parsecboy (talk) 02:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bankruptsy?

All this talk about 'economic problems' is just awful. What kind of problems? The article is just pap.WolfKeeper 23:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

How is it that this article doesn't mention the fact that the Soviet Union went bankrupt, due to low grain/food production and a burgeoning population and an inability to export goods due to poor quality and not producing anything that other countries wanted to buy?WolfKeeper 23:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

You know, the primary actual reason according to the guy that was the prime minister (forget his name) after the breakup that the union broke up isn't actually mentioned anywhere? WolfKeeper 23:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

You must remember, American conservatives do in fact edit wikipedia, and we all know the Soviet Union was defeated by Ronald Reagan, all by himself. Nothing to do with inefficiencies of the Soviet system. Nope. It was Ronald Reagan, telling Gorbechev to tear down that wall. And Star Wars. Parsecboy 23:45, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

If they can sustain such an argument in the face of WP:NPOV then hey, it probably really happened; but I doubt that they can. This article is strangely empty of real references.WolfKeeper 23:48, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I think this article is in dire need of some drastic revision. Let's start by culling the unreferenced Cold-War mythos, eh? Parsecboy 23:50, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I substantially edited the intro paragraph. Does that seem a little better? Feel free to edit away if you think it needs improvement. It's a rough draft anyways. Parsecboy 23:59, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The worst article ever.

It barely says anything about the Soviet Union. Please someone fix it. 90% of this article is about Gorbachev. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.83.104.78 (talk) 15:39, 15 September 2007 (UTC)