Talk:History of socialism in Great Britain

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previous debate archived at Talk:History_of_British_Socialism/archive. Morwen 18:17, 7 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Contents 1 Suggestions for improving the article 2 Neutrality 3 bourgeois revolutions 4 Article division 5 "anti-working class legislation" 6 UK/Britain 7 Christian Socialists 8 Socialism and nationalism

[edit] Suggestions for improving the article

• Something about the British far-left, very few people wouldn't consider them socialist, and many, many people would find the idea that New Labour are even remotely socialist would be laughable. There are lots of good articles here abot the various far left parties but there isn't an overview. Theres no reason not to include them, Wiki is not paper.
  • The Communist Party of Great Britain did have some importance, including parlimentary representation.
  • The Scottish Socialist Party have seats in the Scottish Parliment and the RMT have affiliated to them in some regions.
  • You might not consider Trotskyism to be significant but that would be very POV
  • The Socialist Party of Great Britain is a very old political party, almost as old as the Labour Party, and that fact alone is significant
• The SNP and Playd Cymru consider themselves Socialist don't they?
• The SDLP are members of the Socialist International along with the Labour Party
• Sinn Féin consider themselves socialist
• Some mention of Anarchism

Saul Taylor 04:06, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I've begun working on the article. I've started by trying to address the pre-1910 period. This section, I think, still needs much more on trade unions, including the founding of the TUC, more on the Chartists, the 1832 Reform Act and the national strike of 1820.

For the post-1910 period, I think Saul Taylor's points are good, and I also hope to cover Red Clydeside, the Suffragette movement, the CPGB split with Moscow, attitudes to WWI and WWII, the later trade union movement, Militant, the 1984 Miners Strike (honestly, an article on socialism in Britain which doesn't even mention it!), the SDP, the Poll Tax, the 2003 Iraq War and the "anti-globalisation" movement. Warofdreams 17:47, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I've now covered every subject in the article, with the exceptions of the 1832 Reform Act and the Irish topics (many of which have little bearing on British socialism). Warofdreams 22:00, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

(Re Origins:) Am reading E.P. Thompson, /Making of the English Working Class/ at present (--- should perh go in a further reading section?): but something about Thomas Paine and Thomas Spence as forebears of Owen might not go amiss. Thoughts? Omicron18 07:33, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality

Is anybody still disputing the neutrality of this article, or should the header be removed G-Man 19:53, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] bourgeois revolutions

I changed the link to just revolution as there is no padge for bourgeois revolution, the revolution padge is a mess and doesn't even mention the Marxist concept of Bour'revo's but, at mo, nothing better to link to. Some one should have a go sort out revo page. --JK the unwise 12:02, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Article division

I have divided the article into centuries; I think the 20th century should be further divided into pre-WWII and post-WWII (in the main outline and not as sub-divisions).

Maybe someone could write an introduction for each century (19+20), summarising the important points, these are:

• The 19th century
  • Peterloo massacre.
  • Legalization of unions.
  • Chartist's movement.
  • International Workingmen's Association (This also should be added to the article [1]).
  • The rise of the trade unions.
• The 20th century
  • Political representation.
  • The general strike.
  • The Attlee government and the welfare state.
  • The rise of reformism (right-wing labour leaders).

I also added a section about the Chartist movement; an article with the title "History of British socialism" without a section about the Chartists is not worth its name.

Doesn't Unitarianism belong in the section Ethical socialism? I don't really know much about the movement, only that Elizabeth Gaskell was married to a Unitarian minister.

Also in the section Trade unions it's not clear that before 1824 combinations (unions) were illegal, there is also no mention of the (Peterloo) massacre in Manchaster.

The section Lib-Labs and the ILP, I believe, does not belong in this article; it's about the origin of the political representation of labour and not British socialism per se. The Liberals were never socialists, why talk about them? Instead of talking about the liberals the article needs a section about the growth of the trade unions in the 1880's and 1890's espicially in the ranks of the unskilled workers (dockers, women, etc.).

The Origins section, also, needs a lot of work. The Reformation did not occure later in Britain than mainland Europe, and even if that's true I don't see the point of this remark in this article. Socialism is not a religion, but it might express itself through religion. This section should cover the following points:

• The Levellers
• The Diggers.
• The Quakers.
• John Bellers.
• Social and economic change.

The part about the English revolution and how Marxists view it has no place in this article; it should be moved to an article that discusses the revolution and not socialism. There is a difference between class struggle and socialism, a history of socialism should not be about class struggle, otherwise we'll have to start with the Romans; the revolution was the culmination of the struggle between two classes, nobles and bourgeois. (For source material, about the points above, see: Cromwell and Communism [2] by Eduard Bernstein)

[edit] "anti-working class legislation"

I removed the statement that privatisation was "anti-working class legislation" because it's a POV comment and not neutral at all. - Johnbull 19:34, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

The legislation is clearly anti-working class, whether that is good for the overall economy or not is a matter of POV! I think the statement should be re-inserted. --DelftUser 18:37, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

It isn't anti-working class, many workers purchased shares in privatised utilities and many working-class people benefited from the move from state owned council housing to private home-ownership. They would not have won elections if they didn't have working class votes. Any statement that privatisation is 'anti-working class' is clearly POV and not neutral.-Johnbull 19:09, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

"many workers purchased shares in privatised utilities", oh really, name one! Maybe the legislation lifted an insignificant percentage of workers on the social ladder, but then they aren't workers and no longer belong to the working class! As to "private home-ownership" workers don't own their homes the bank does, workers pay the mortgage! I still claim that the legislation is anti-working class by it's nature, whether that is good or not is POV. --DelftUser 19:23, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

(In case you think I haven't worked on this article I want to point out that I am the one who divided the article into centuries and wrote the big comment, above, about that.--DelftUser 19:27, 19 December 2005 (UTC))

They do eventually do get to own their home. More skilled workers in 1983 and 1987 voted Tory than Labour [3]. I don't think these working-class people would vote for a party that passed "anti-working class legislation". The claim that privatisation is anti-working class is POV and represents a Socialist viewpoint and is therefore against Wiki policy.Johnbull 19:42, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] UK/Britain

This article doesn't cover Ireland, and I don't believe it would make sense to include it. Britain and Ireland have had quite distinct socialist movements, although both have agreed that a united Ireland is desirable, so those socialist groups operating in Northern Ireland are the same as those in the Republic. As a result, I plan to move this article back to history of socialism in Britain. Warofdreams talk 17:27, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I see! Perhaps you could consider Great Britain for the name? Talrias (t | e | c) 17:30, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Christian Socialists

Would it be worthwhile to make more of the mention of the Christian Socialists in the 19th Century section? Despite their brief period of activism, they did have some influence, particularly over the ILP in the early days. It could also be argued that British socialism has had a fairly consistent thread of Christian socialism running through it, and at present it isn't mentioned in any depth. MrTrev 19:15, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

We are a bit short on material on Christian socialism. Feel free to improve the article! Warofdreams talk 14:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I've added a wee bit, but I need to think before I can show a thread running through the history. MrTrev 19:43, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest, rather than trying to show a thread running through history, it would better to provide plenty of examples and refer to existing theories of this thread, in order to comply with the "no original research" policy. Warofdreams talk 00:23, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. I mean I'm trying to figure out the best places to insert these. Unfortunately, while I am aware some of the leading figures in British socialism believe their Christianity has focussed and/or been a part of their socialism, it's not a view I subscribe to in general, so I'm struggling a bit here. I just felt that with socialists such as Benn (who has had a significant effect on socialism in the UK) stating its importance to them, it needs to be covered. MrTrev 08:51, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Socialism and nationalism

I just removed this sentence:

More radically, some members of the socialist group Red Action became Provisional IRA bombers in the early 1990s.[4]

It's not that it's false (it's true, although I might word it slightly differently) but it seems pretty marginal to the history of socialism in Gt Britain. What do others think? BobFromBrockley 11:54, 19 December 2006 (UTC)