Talk:Hippocratic Oath

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I am not sure exactly what the hyppocratic oath section should be, but im sure its not really supposed to read:

To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug nor give advice which may cause his death.

Nor will I give a woman a pessary to procure abortion.

But I will preserve the purity of my life and my "farts."

-tom

InsertformulahereI'm changing "Most scholars believe that the oath was written by Hippocrates..." to "It's widely believed that the oath was written by Hippocrates...?" It's seems clear from reading other articles that it's not the case that 'most scholars' believe he wrote the oath. Dictionary.com states: "He is traditionally but inaccurately considered the author of the Hippocratic oath." the Wikipedia Hippocrates article states: "The best known of the Hippocratic writings is the Hippocratic Oath; however, this text was most likely not written by Hippocrates himself." --Ledavee 11:04, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

The article seems misleading in implying that only sections of the hippocratic oath have been dropped in some places.

As far as I know it isn't actually used (or sworn) by doctors in most of the first world. Certainly it isn't in the UK.

Does any country actually still use it?

--BozMo|talk 11:23, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I am failrly certain it is still taught and referred to but I don't whether it is still formally recited as a "pledge" at graduation ceremonies anywhere. The article suggests that formal ceremonial use is declining but I don't know whether it is extinct. I doubt it but can't prove it. Alteripse 11:54, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

What do we mean by "use?" A survey of 150 medical schools in Canada and in the United States in 1993 reported that almost none "use" it. Many "use" a form of it, with many alterations. Its relevance is a big question if its modifications have evolved it into something like meaningless wedding vows; or even impotent Dutch law and medical guidelines.Ep9206 (talk) 17:38, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Contents 1 Source of quoted oath 2 Original source in Latin/Greek 3 Textual Criticisms 4 Removed 5 Modern Versions 6 EB version 7 WikiProject class rating 8 Internal consistency 9 Modern Relevance in need of NPOV

[edit] Source of quoted oath

I have removed:

(PBS/Johns Hopkins; but please also note that the Johns Hopkins source words the ancient Oath differently from the above, which is apocryphal/unsourced)

as part of a revision. The writer makes a very important point that the Oath quoted is unreferenced as to the source. Does anyone have a source or should we replace this version with one for which there is a credible source? --CloudSurfer 22:42, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

63.233.105.209 03:27, 7 October 2005 (UTC) I edited this article to cut out opinionated statements. Words such as "strongly," etc. should be left out.

The second paragraph seems a bit awkward:
"It is thought to be written by Hippocrates by some scholars..." 
Couldn't it be phrased better, maybe like this:
"Some scholars believe it was written by Hippocrates..."

dhughes UTC 01:41 December 08, 2005

Either way is fine216.56.21.190 15:19, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Original source in Latin/Greek

It would be desirable to include (or reference) the original text of the oath (in greek/latin). Anybody knows?

Regards.

Added the Greek version. Took it from Greek Wikipedia and divided it into paragraphs to match the English, for ease of comparison. Not sure what value the Latin would add. kwami 05:12, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Is there such a thing as an original Greek text or has the oath been in continuous evolution?Ep9206 (talk) 17:38, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Textual Criticisms

As for what is meant or if there is any reliable source of the oath, this article could certainly use a section that uses "the knife" in understanding what is meant by any of the text. Is the use of "the knife," refer literally to using knives, or is there any critical interpretation such as "avoidance of unnecessary invasive surgery," or other? It's hard to believe that anybody would blanketly condemn systematic diagnosis.Ep9206 (talk) 17:38, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removed

I removed the following sentence: "Also missing from the ancient Oath and from many modern versions are the complex ethical issues associated with HMOs, living wills, and whether morning-after pills are technically closer to prophylactics or an abortion."

The final statement about emergency contraception seems biased to me. I could not think of a good ethical example to replace it with, so I removed the whole sentence, which did not add much to the article, imho. I believe this statement is biased since the medical profession generally understands that the 'morning after pill' is chemically identical to birth control pills. Whether EC/oral contraceptives are an abortion is a matter of debate in the general public and religious sphere, and not generally a debate of the medical profession. Thus, reference to this debate does not belong in an article about the Hippocratic Oath.

I would agree with this as someone has reverted the sentance back in, am removing it again Judderman85 00:00, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Have removed all specific references and just replaced it with the more neutral "modern practice"

[edit] Modern Versions

This page should more prominently lead readers to modern versions. Mathiastck 15:45, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I think there is some importance to including the classical version of the oath which I know to pre-date the "Nova" citation, notwithstanding its archaic language, for the shocking change made to the substance of the oath, which had before been to teach all persons seeking the art free of charge.

72.236.237.105 01:56, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

• Mathiastck, I added a photograph of Dr. Lasagna from his biography page, and expanded the link to his version. I also expanded the two references that were there to a site in the UK. I am not a student of medicine but at least the source for what this article says can be read. -Susanlesch 08:25, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! I like the addition. -- Rmrfstar 13:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] EB version

Here's the somewhat more archaic translation in the 15th ed. of the EB:

I will look upon him who shall have taught me this Art even as one of my parents. I will share my substance with him, and I will supply his necessities, if he be in need. I will regard his offspring even as my own brethren, and I will teach them this Art, if they would learn it, without fee or covenant. I will impart this Art by precept, by lecture and by every mode of teaching, not only to my own sons but to the sons of him who has taught me, and to disciples bound by covenant and oath, according to the Law of Medicine.

The regimen I adopt shall be for the benefit of my patients according to my ability and judgment, and not for their hurt or for any wrong. I will give no deadly drug to any, though it be asked of me, nor will I counsel such, and especially I will not aid a woman to procure abortion. Whatsoever house I enter, there will I go for the benefit of the sick, refraining from all wrongdoing or corruption, and especially from any act of seduction, or male or female, of bond or free. Whatsoever things I see or hear concerning the life of men, in my attendance on the sick or even apart therefrom, which ought not to be noised abroad, I will keep silence thereon, counting such things to be as sacred secrets.

kwami 06:27, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 04:07, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Internal consistency

It would be helpful if the “modern relevance” section used quotes from the same version used in the “the classical oath” section. -Ahruman (talk) 11:03, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Modern Relevance in need of NPOV

The bit "3. Never to do ... Consent" seems very, very biased. Why does it claim areas like Oregon or countries like The Netherlands allow doctors "murder" patients without the consent of patients?! This is not just biased, in fact, it is plain wrong. The reference given is a one-sided list of articles and op-eds on Dutch 'killing'. I'd like to refer readers to the Dutch Wikipedia which goes over the law regulating euthanasia in The Netherlands, but it boils down to this: in order for euthanasia to take place there must, in direct contradiction to what this article claims, be clear and prior consent by the patient. The 'source' (number 4) on all these allegations refers to an article that also just rants about how Dutch doctors run around killing people left and right, clearly not something one would like to see as a foundation for encyclopedic material. Most irritatingly, that rant itself provides no sources for any of its claims, especially some of the more outlandish ones. I'm not used to Wikipedia's tagging style, but I'm going to go and find one that's either NPOV of sources related and slap it on here. Wouter de Groot (talk) 22:35, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Turns out this was an edit by a single user, adding in the questionable source and biased text. Reverted. Wouter de Groot (talk) 22:50, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

After someone felt the need to put the word killing back in there I've changed it back to "perform euthanasia" so that the argument about killing, murdering and whatnot can take place at the linked article, where it should. In this context it should be objectively clear what is going on: euthanasia. Whether someone feels this is murder or not is beside the point for this article. Wouter de Groot (talk) 19:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)