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Talk:Hippocrates - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Talk:Hippocrates

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Featured article star Hippocrates is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
Main Page trophy This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on June 19, 2007.
This article has been reviewed by the Version 1.0 Editorial Team.
Version 0.5
 This article has been selected for Version 0.5 and subsequent release versions of Wikipedia.
To-do: edit · history · watch · refresh
  • Confusing bit from 1911 'bout philosophy.
  • gymnastics -- adams9
  • Page number for cite 56.
  • Read Smith's The Hippocratic Tradition
  • Read The Embassy
  • Review Picture
  • Describe the personality types he described or create seperate article about them
Archive

Archives
Before rewrite

Contents

[edit] GA failed

When compared with the good articles' criteria, the article is :

1. Well written?: Needs a copyedit
2. Factually accurate?: Pass (Not always sticking to facts)
I don't know what you mean here. If you're talking about the biographical info, see the article's peer review. There, editors clamoured for more text, true or not.
3. Broad in coverage?: Pass
4. Neutral point of view?: Fail
Which of the NPOV subcriteria does it fail?
5. Article stability? Fail (last 50 modifications ... big edits)
The article does not change significantly "from day to day". Nothing really major has been done in a week. It is under peer review and eventually to be up for FAC. It is thus being improved, but it is also relatively consistent and reliably stable.
6. Images?: Pass


== Additional comments :

  • Only Hippocrates' approximate birth date, birth place and profession are known for certain., how can approximations be known for certain, it doesn't make sense. This is especially true if the next line states that historians have come to accept some idea.
I disagree. Shakespeare is also known for certain to have been born near April 23, but the exact date is uncertain. ==
  • Historians accept that he actually existed, is original research.
I don't see why. Makuria, featured, contains the sentence, "What this merged kingdom should be called is unclear in both contemporary sources and among modern historians."
  • In He may have died in Larissa at the age of 83 or 90, though his death date is speculated with very little certainty; some sources state that he lived to be over 100 years old., why is a source given for 100 yo but not for the two previous years mentioned?
The source is not for 100 yrs old, but for the whole sentence... you'll notice that the source is after the sentence, not within it.
  • Here Hippocrates is often hailed as the first physician to reject superstitious beliefs and practice medicine based only on scientific theory., how can he be hailed if there is no citation given?
You mean, of course, "how does the reader know that for certain"... I shall get a source for this. Fixed.
  • The line Scientific Hippocrates did deny the divine origin of all sickness. needs rephrasing.
Fixed
  • Solving the specify tag of the line These predictions were based ... is necessary.
Will be done. Done!
  • Explanation is needed for Crises occur on critical days, usually a fixed time after the contraction of the disease.
I don't think I can make this any clearer. The critical day is the day on which a crisis occurs. These days usually occur after a fixed period. It's no more complicated than this.
  • Rephrase this line according to this doctrine, the body contains within itself the power get better by rebalancing the four humours.
Done? Is this good enough?
  • There is an Adams mentioned here : Adams goes one step further and calls it sometimes “obscure”. but not before and it is not wikilinked/we don't know who he is.
Fixed.
  • The text is well-written in some sections but other lack in quality. This discrepancy is not ideal especially because the readers will be rebutted to read the whole article.

Even though this article is broad enough and sounds good and is long, it still lacks in copyediting and a few other fields to reach the GA status. For more explanation, please send a message to my talk page. Good luck with the re-working of the article. Lincher 13:12, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I shall cite those two things and copyedit... then I'd like to have it re-evaluated. Thanks for the suggestions! -- Rmrfstar 23:32, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re-review

I agree more text is necessary for the biographical section. Maybe part of the legends section should be included in the biographical section in order to let the readers know (who come only for a brief understanding of the guy) that much that is said about him is mythical & unreliable.
I have provided a link to the Legends section next to the sentence which notes apocryphal information exists.
OK for stability, OK for NPOV issues.
Maybe if it looked like Historians can only ascertain Hippocrates' approximate birth date, birth place and profession.
That is euphemistic.
You wrote Historians accept that he actually existed and I questioned? You compared it with Makuria, which I totally agree compared to. But I add : are there historians that do not believe that he ever existed and if so who and why? If not, then there is no necessity for this as it is like saying oranges are orange, IMO. Just answer here if you don't feel this should be disputed or has no take in the article's bettering.
Not that I've heard of: it's not disputed, as far as I know.
About Crises occur on critical days, usually a fixed time after the contraction of the disease., is it a concept taken out of his corpus ... if so, giving a citation would solve the understanding. For I, when reading this, am lost as to what are these critical days. Are they days after which disease you will have crises and these number of days differ from one disease to another?
I changed it a little.
Maybe more info about the curing of Democritus. More examples of how he did his medicine like how he took the heart beat, talk about gallbladder stones.
Democritus has been mentioned.
More information about how medecine was done before him and what changed.
Where did he practice medicine?
Everywhere he went... I have mentioned this.
Comparison with Polycletus & Phidias who were also practicing medicine around that time would be useful.
Were the doctors of that time paid?
He was.
Part of the legend : It is said that he would have burnt one of the librairies Kos or Cnidus.
This is in the article.
What about his father & grand father who are said, and that almost could be factual, to have initiated him to medicine for they were doctors.
They have already been mentioned.
Did he leave (that is almost known for sure) Kos? What was the reason of his departure?
These, too.
It is said that he knew about the Eleusinian Mysteries, and that should be mentioned in the text.
He is said to have interveined in the conflict that brought his son to make a declaration involving his forefathers in 413 BC.
More text you can find information on : Bio, Bio.

Anyway, I think the article would probably pass the GA since enough is given to let reviewers know that what was missing was fixed and much can be added to broaden the article but it still has the essentials. Lincher 17:09, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I think if anyone should pass it, that person is you. In the meantime, I shall continue to improve it by your suggestions. -- Rmrfstar 17:38, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA awarded

This little bit of review on the article was refreshing enough to give it more balance, more coverage and a better feel overall. It now meets the requirements of WIAGA. Cheers, Lincher 00:56, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your work. -- Rmrfstar 01:15, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural depictions of Hippocrates

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 18:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

No cultural references are being deleted from the article. How would this model be useful under these circumstances? -- Rmrfstar 17:10, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FAC

I think it needs a lot of work, but nothing major.

Introduction:

1."and prescribing good habits for physicians"

  • Isn't the oath about ethics, primarily? - "and prescribing ethical practices for physicians."
    • It largely defined the practices that a physician could partake in, so I generalized the sentence to accomodate the Oath, though it still doesn't describe only the Oath.

Biography: 1.was born around the year 460 BC on the island of Kos,"

  • Should you say, the Greek Island of Kos? Was it Greek then, and isn't it now?
    • It says earlier that he was Greek; I wouldn't want to be repetetive.
      • I don't think you're being repetitive by mentioning the Greek Island of Kos, as he could have been a Greek even if born outside of Greece at the time. I'm trying to make it easier on the reader, and repetition is not as dangerous as it sounds, when it's used as necessary.
        • OK! -- Rmrfstar 23:54, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

2."and was a famous physician and teacher of medicine"

  • "and became a famous physician and teacher of medicine" or "who became a famous physician and teacher of medicine."
    • Fixed.

3."Later biographers of Hippocrates were Suidas,"

  • Is Suidias a biographer or is a biography of Hippocrates included in the Suidas?
    • According to Garrison, he's a biographer, but I think it's an error probably due to the often missing definite article in front of "Suidas". I tried to fix the article accordingly.

4."Later biographers of Hippocrates were Suidas, John Tzetzes, and Aristotle.[2][7]"

  • These should be listed chronologically, Aristotle, Suidas, John Tzetzes, and included dates, "Later biographies of Hippocrates were written by Artistotle in the whatever century, by the authors of the Suidas in the 10th century, and by John Tzetzes in the whatever century.
    • Fixed... see above.
      • This section is not clear due to inconsistencies: "Soranus of Ephesus, a Greek gynecologist of 2nd century AD,[6] was Hippocrates's first biographer and is the source of most information on Hippocrates's person. Biographies of Hippocrates were found in the writings of Aristotle in the fourth century BC, in the Suidas of the tenth century AD, and by John Tzetzes of the twelfth century AD.[2][7] Soranus stated that Hippocrates's father was Heraclides, a physician; his mother was Praxitela, daughter of Phenaretis. The two sons of Hippocrates, Thessalus and Draco, and his son-in-law, Polybus, were his students. According to Galen, a later physician, Polybus was Hippocrates’s true successor while Thessalus and Draco each had a son named Hippocrates.[8][9]
        • According to the text Soranus was Hippocrates's first biographer, but the very next sentence says that Aristotle was a biographer some 6 centuries earlier. I believe that Aristotle included biographical information about Hippocrates in some of his works which were not specifically about Hippocrates, but the first biography was by Soranus (actually I thought it was the only one?) but I'm not sure, and will let you research and correct as necessary. Another biography cannot precede the first one.
          • Fixed (by someone else) -- Rmrfstar 23:54, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

5."Soranus said that Hippocrates learned medicine from his father and grandfather, and other subjects from Democritus and Gorgias."

  • "and studied other subjects with the Greek philosophers Democritus and Gorgias."
    • Done.

6."Hippocrates was probably trained at the Asklepieion of Kos, and took lessons from Herodicus of Selymbria."

  • Should asklepieion be capitalized, or should it be at the aslepieion in Kos? >"and took lessons from the Thracian physician Herodicus of Selymbria"
    • Fixed.

7."Plato, Hippocrates's only contemporary to mention him, describes him as an Asklepiad.[10]"

  • Awkward, imo. Is Plato the only contemporaneous mention of Hippocrates? I didn't know that. How about "The only contemporaneous mention of Hippocrates is in Plato's (insert which work), where Plate describes Hippocrates as an Asklepiad. Is that a follower of Asclepius? Put in a common and define the term.

KP Botany 17:32, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

    • The real issue is that the term "Asklepiad"'s definition is under much contention: it may mean he was a priest of a healing temple or a member of a cult or a descendant of Asclepius, or a successful doctor, or something else. No one knows. Should I put the term in quotes? -- Rmrfstar 21:25, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Quotes? Blech, all the pretty prose in the world won't help Wikipedians over-using quotes. I see the page it links to explains the ambiguity of its meaning. I will try to look something up, and maybe someone has a better suggestion than just ignoring its unclarifiable status without resorting to quotes.
        • All right. -- Rmrfstar 23:54, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I will be off for holidays, and don't know how much I'll post. Be patient, I think the article has needs polished and clarified, by I believe you've done most of the hard work, and seem to have the knowledge and sources already. KP Botany 23:47, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image of Tree of Hippocrates

I've changed the image to the one I made myself, not because I'm such a narcist but because the upper half of the other picture was covered with overhanging leafs. Mine isn't perfect either.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 18:18, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

This one is better... thanks! -- Rmrfstar 16:35, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Impact

What was his impact? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.135.224.189 (talk • contribs)

The answer to this is very long, but is answered in full in the article. The sections "Professionalism", "Direct contributions to medicine", "Image" and "Namkesakes" deal with Hippocrates' "impact" most directly. -- Rmrfstar 16:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Somebody (91.124.144.90 ?) is really messing around with this page

There are NUMEROUS vandalisms here, even after some reversions.

Why is it that whenever I type 'Hippocrates' into the Wikipedia Search it comes up with an article saying "Why do I hate Canada so much"?

[edit] Hippocrates in the hadith

The material on Hippocrates here should be included. Any ideas? Arrow740 03:40, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, why?--Svetovid 15:21, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't think so. That section talks only about conception, a relatively narrow subject when compared to the history of all medicine. And this article already mentions that Hippocrates' doctrines were adopted by Arabs. Is this truly not sufficient? -- Rmrfstar 15:31, 20 June 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Hippocrates & Astrology

Hi Rmrfstar. I added content and references on Hippocrates related to his medical practices and teaching. Thanks for leaving me a message. I hope to be able to add more content to improve the page even further, and would enjoy your comments. Thanks.Theo 06:09, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I just looked over KillerChihuahua's reversions, and I noticed a few problems with your additions as well.
  • First of all, you must use inline citations for all your contributions, especially to an Featured Article which is already rigorously sourced.
  • Second, this article is about Hippocrates, not astrology. Hundreds of words of basic astrology doctrine should not be included, especially in the lede.
  • I don't see a reason to re-label the heading, ===The Physical Body's Humorism, Crisis of Health, and Healing===. What was your reasoning?
  • Again, in all the research for the article as it now stands, I saw very, very little information on how much Hippocrates advanced astrology. I suggest you find secondary and tertiary sources which discuss this, in addition to translations of the Corpus.
  • If you want to add a medium-sized section on specifically astrology in Hippocrates' teachings, that's fine with me; but the information should not be dispersed everywhere throughout the article.
  • Also remember that this article is on Hippocrates, not the Hippocratic Corpus, and that mention in the latter does not signify importance to the former, ie. if you find secondary sources which discuss the matter of astrology in the Corpus, we should not necessarily include that information in the article on Hippocrates. Wait until you find stuff discussing Hippocrates, the person, and his astrological convictions, not those of his disciples and the physicians of other schools.
  • Last, the astrology quote which is attributed to Hippocrates should be left out until it is sourced to him and not the Corpus. -- Rmrfstar 13:22, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proctoscopy: review needed

I was told to add to this article a section on Hippocrates' advancement of proctoscopy and endoscopy So, I wrote and referenced the following paragraph for the section "Direct Contributions to Medicine". I would like some peer review to make sure I don't decrease the quality of the article in including it.

Proctology and Endoscopy

The Hippocratic school of medicine described well the ailments of the human rectum and the treatment thereof, despite the school's poor theory of medicine. Hemorrhoids, for instance, though believed to be caused by an excess of bile and phlegm, were treated by Hippocratic physicians in relatively advanced ways.[1][2] Cautery and excision are described in the Hippocratic Corpus, in addition to the preferred methods: ligating the hemorrhoids and drying them with a hot iron. Other treatments such as applying various salves are suggested as well.[3][4] Today, "treatment [for hemorrhoids] still includes burning, strangling, and excising".[1] Also, some of the fundamental concepts of proctoscopy outlined in the Corpus are still in use.[1][2] For example, the uses of the rectal speculum, a common medical device, are discussed in the Hippocratic Corpus. [2] This constitutes the earliest recorded reference to endoscopy.[5][6]

References

  1. ^ a b c Jóhannsson 2005, p. 11
  2. ^ a b c Jani 2005, p. 24–25
  3. ^ Jóhannsson 2005, p. 12
  4. ^ Mann 2002, p. 1, 173
  5. ^ Shah 2002, p. 645
  6. ^ NCEPOD 2004, p. 4

Bibliography

  • Jani, P.G. (2005), "Management of Haemorrhoids: A Personal Experience", East and Central African Journal of Surgery 10 (2): 24–28.
  • Jóhannsson, Helgi Örn (2005), Haemorrhoids: Aspects of Symptoms and Results after Surgery, Uppsala University, ISBN 91-554-6399-1.
  • Mann, Charles V. (2002), Surgical Treatment of Haemorrhoids, Springer, ISBN 1852334967.
  • NCEPOD (2004), written at London, Scoping our practice, National Confidential Enquiry into Patient Outcome and Death, ISBN 0-9539249-3-3.
  • Shah, J. (2002), written at London, "Endoscopy through the ages", BJU International (Academic Surgical Unit and Department of Urology, Imperial College School of Medicine, St. Mary's Hospital) 89 (7): 645–652, DOI 10.1046/j.1464-410X.2002.02726.x.
The first sentence needs rewording. Consider replacing especially considering with despite or surprisingly considering or some variation thereof. The sentence on salves also needs rewording. I had to read it several times before it made sense. Perhaps reduce the number of commas to one that can be readily expressed without the use of scientific notation? Consider reordering the sentences about the methods being used today. I would put the quote within the other sentence. The references are both sufficient in number and adequately recent given the subject matter. Be sure to spell check, as hemorrhoids is spelled incorrectly at least once. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 04:31, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the review. I've attempted to fix most of your concerns. I've left the quote where it is because proctoscopy and hemorrhoid treatment are so distinct. I'll now add the paragraph to the article. -- Rmrfstar (talk) 04:54, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fever benefits

"Give me a fever, and I can cure any illness." -- Hippocrates

It seems to me this quote might belong somewhere in the article. But, the article seems so high-quality now that I am afraid to touch it... -69.87.199.175 (talk) 19:09, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

You shouldn't ever be afraid to edit an article (see WP:BOLD); any change can be easily undone. You are right, though, in the case of a Featured Article, it's probably better to ask first. Indeed, I don't think the quote should be put in the article for a couple of reasons: one, it's not sourced... two, it probably wasn't Hippocrates who said it, but an author of the Hippocratic Corpus. Also, such quotes probably should serve their purpose in Wikiquote. Only the most famous quotes of the very quotable Corpus deserve a place in either Hippocratic Corpus or Hippocrates. "Art is long, life is short", for instance, is much more easily acceptable. I'd recommend you put the quote in Wikiquote, with a source. Thanks for the suggestion! -- Rmrfstar (talk) 07:01, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Honey legend

I think the beehive legend should remain mentioned because it is a particularly common legend, and its subject fits well with the information in the rest of the paragraph on various "Legends". I have re-included and commented-out the sentence until consensus is reached.-- Rmrfstar (talk) 04:14, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


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