Talk:Het Wilhelmus

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Contents 1 't Sal hier haest zijn gedaen 2 German descend - where is the problem? 3 An omission about everyday use 4 Little game with first letters of the verses 5 Vroom isn't Pious 6 1st verse 2nd line 7 John of Salisbury, etc. 8 Rewrite 9 Humorous adaptations 10 Luxembourg 11 Moved to The William 12 Nederlands o Nederlands 13 A one poem poet-like person?

[edit] 't Sal hier haest zijn gedaen

I know that the above sentence is often translated as 'It will be soon done (=over) here'. This is probably fine if the sentence is on its own. However, it is preceded by 'Als vrome christen leven', which means 'Living as a pious christian'. The two have to be connected, since 'als vrome christen leven' is not a complete sentence in itself. You cannot translate it as 'Live as a pious christian'. So, taken the two sentence together, I arrive at the translation "Living as a pious christian, it will be soon done here", where "here" is the Netherlands. In other words: soon you will be free to serve God in the way you want. I think this translation also fits the meaning of the complete stanza much better: it is meant as a consolation of William's oppressed people. The somewhat pessimistic "it will soon be all over" doesn't seem to be a very fitting conclusion to this stanza.

Could the author who proposed the translation "It will be soon done here" reply to this?

[edit] German descend - where is the problem?

I don't know where you all see problems with the term "of German descend" ("van Duitsen bloedt"). At the time the song was written the Netherlands regarded themselves as a part of Germany: die niederen deutschen Lande (the lower German lands). The word "Dutch" comes from Deutsch, f. e. the Pennsylvania Dutch who are all of German descend. Nowadays German and Dutch are two different things, but at the time "Wilhelmus" was written both words had the same meaning: deutsch.

Yeah right. I'm not even going in on this rubbish.Rex 14:47, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

One more argument for Duits as generalisation of "Nederduits" is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nederduits_Gereformeerde_Kerk. LanX --217.224.61.35 00:58, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, nederduits (niederdeutsch, lower German). You must make a difference between the year 2007 and the 16th century. In the 16th century, the Netherlands WERE German, lower German. They have called themselves "nederduits" (lower German) until the end of the 19th century. At the time the song was written, there was no difference between the Germans and the Dutch people. The Dutch people WERE Germans.

And William of Nassau is not a German because he lived somewhere what now belongs to present-day Germany. Or is Immanuel Kant a Russian because he was born in present-day Russia? William of Nassau is a German because he was a German at the time he was born. He was born in a land that was already called Germany, he belonged to a people that was already known as the German people at the time of his birth. And because of that he's German. Not because of present-day borders. I don't see any problems. William of Nassau was German, and the Netherlands were too.

This resentment of Germans has been present in the Low Countries since the 16th century, but today’s resentment of Germans mostly comes from the Dutch experiences in the Second World War.

What is this all about? I think this might give the idea that Dutch people really hate germans, which is not the case. There might of course be the occasionall "german joke" but this is out of perspective imo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.141.132.155 (talk) 10:15, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] An omission about everyday use

When singing the anthem, us dutch only sing the first and sixth stanza. While they are color-coded to reflect this (presumably), it's not mentioned explicitly anywhere in the text.Mr.WaeseL 12:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Little game with first letters of the verses

If you take the first letter of each verse, they will make the word: Willem van Nazzov This is the old-dutch name for Willem van Nassau(we)

I do not dare to write into the main article, but maybe someone else can do that? --22:36, 2006 Jun 16 (UTC)

[edit] Vroom isn't Pious

The phrase

Dat ik doch vroom mag blijven

is not properly translated with

so that I shall remain pious

"Vroom" is indeed "pious" in modern Dutch, and it will certainly be interpreted this way by all contemporary speakers who aren't also historically inclined, but originally "vroom" meant "strong", "steadfast". See the Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal -- if you can. :-) --JRM 23:06, 2004 Oct 16 (UTC)

True, the normal meaning then was simply "brave".--MWAK 10:07, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes I knew that but you should note that I didn't use a translation but the English version of the lyrics ;-) Rex 13:57, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I had assumed as much ;o)--MWAK 14:42, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1st verse 2nd line

Ben ik van duitsen bloed

Duitsen means German, anyway you put it. Everyone in the netherlands has this to criticize and motions have been filed to change this part.

[edit] John of Salisbury, etc.

The reference to John of Salisbury, supposedly for the purposes of "clarifying" the article, is an absurd irrelevance. If John of Salisbury has got anything whatsoever to do with the Wilhelmus, please enlighten us! If it's just a randomly chosen instance of a name taking the form "A of B", it is merely confusing, and such names are so common that illustrating their use by reference to another completely random one is unnecessary and almost the exact opposite of "clarification".

The precise details of orthographic variation are also beside the point, at least in the lead; but it is perhaps useful to mention (even if it is extremely obvious in the context) that "Nassov" is an orthographic variation of "Nassau", so I have done so. Vilĉjo 14:37, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

The reference to John 'of Salisbury is meant to clarify the use of Dutch 'van' to avoid confusion with anglicised forms of Dutch names such as Martin van buren or Dick van Dyke.

Maybe the orthografic question is very simple for you, but not for many others I will revert your edits untill you have provided more convincing argumtents. Sander 15:23, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

If we are talking about convincing arguments, your justification for the reference to John of Salisbury is feeble in the extreme. (1) For the third time of asking, why John of Salisbury? He has absolutely nothing to do with it. Including the reference at all merely invites confusion, and as such is very poor encyclopaedic style. (My first reaction to seeing the reference was to follow the link and waste a minute or two trying to figure out what connection he could possibly have with the Wilhelmus.) (2) The meaning of van is made perfectly clear in the very first paragraph (The song is about Wilhelmus van Nassouwe ("William of Nassau").) Information should not be needlessly duplicated.

As to the orthography, I conceded above that a mention of the orthographic equivalence between "Nassau" and "Nassov" was perhaps justifiable. But this is not an article on Dutch orthography - there's a perfectly good one already, for those who want the intimate details. (To make it easier, I will change the link to point to Dutch orthography rather than just Orthography.) The inclusion of technical material outside the subject matter of the article is (again) confusing rather than clarificatory. Vilĉjo 16:02, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Edit summary from Sander: Now you listen to me. I am not the one that is supposed to convince you.you are the one supposed to convince me your version is better.Refrain from rv-ting untill then, and mind the 3RR. I place this edit summary here in order that any interested third parties may judge for themselves the general tenor of Sander's approach to the editing process, and his attitude to other users.

Sander's edit, of which this was the so-called "summary", was his fourth exact revert in less than 7 hours. I might have been inclined to overlook it, had he made any attempt to engage with my points on the talk page, or even been more or less polite, but as it is ... (Well, as far as I am concerned he can have the run of this article for the next few days, as I'm not going to be online anyway.) Vilĉjo 17:34, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

I'm going to rewrite the article in the course of this week. Just announcing. I'm thinking of a complete translation and a format close to this in terms of formatting and style and perhaps an expanded section on the German, Germanic, Dutch "problem". Rex 20:13, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought that 'Duitsen(Dietsen) bloed' means 'from the folk'. Is that correct?

"Duits" means "belonging to the people", but it is highly doubtful this etymology was known in the 16th century :o). Bloed is of course simply "blood". --MWAK 10:04, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

But it's meant in the sense of 'lineage' here Mr.WaeseL 12:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

We are talking about 16th century!!! It was no contradiction for a Dutchman to call himself Duits (=> Dutch). The formal independance of the Holy Empire was 1648, and their was no official great German nation state to be distinguished from with before 1871. The Holy Empire was more kind of a Commonwealth where the germanic citizens called themselves "Deutsch, Duits, Diets, Teutsch, Taytsch, ... etc." depending on the local dialect.

Nobody would argue about Canadians calling themselves Americans before the US were founded, Pensylvania Dutch (who speak a German dialect) call their American neighbours "Engländer", the Welsh name for England and the Finnish one for Germany are both originally meaning "Saxony".

The meaning of Duits or German have simply changed meanwhile. LanX --217.224.65.248 20:33, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

There are mixed theories about what exactly the author meant with "Duytschen", but it's all very complicated. Currently someone translated it as "German", I will change this soon as "Dutch" is in many respects (etymologically) closer to the original meaning.

Dutch is indeed etymological closer since IMHO Germany should better be called "Dutchland" in English! :)

"Duytschen" or "Duytsch/Duits" means "German in Modern Dutch", but the root (diut) means "of the (common) people". 'Given that, the meaning could be that William says that he's "one of the Dutch" (which would be in canon the lines in which he explains how he spend his noble blood for the Dutch) but the problem here is that "Duytsch" in that sense, is never really used in other documents of the time with that meaning (as that would have been Dietsch, Dutch).

I'm not a linguist but IMHO this root diut (or theodiscus in Latin) had this meaning in the Frankish monastries in distinction to the Latin of the clerics (8th century!!!). I doubt the meaning of "common people" was still known in 16th century. It was in the meaning of "Germanic people of the Frankish Empire, not Romance nor Slavic". Look, the protestant church has also it's origins in this period and was called Nederduits_Gereformeerde_Kerk. Why Nederduits? Where do you suppose the Upperduits to live, in the Ural mountains? The original meaning of Yankee in the 17th century is most likely a nickname for [Dutch settler in America], so better don't get confused with the meaning of "diut" in the 8th century.

Another explanation is that it means German and refers to his German heritage (as he was born in Dillenburg, now in Germany) but this is somewhat odd as Germans, being much poorer, were looked down upon by the Dutch at the time, so saying he was of German blood would not really raise his status.

Don't you think in war a (poor) German cousin is better than a Spanish king? (Like Prince Bernhardt and Prince Claus... ok Maxima speaks Spanish ... :) Furthermore, was Holland allready so much richer? The economic rise with the colonial trading only started! Why did they call their church "Nederduits" if they had nothing in common with Duits? Why do they have a Keysersgracht in Amsterdam, if the Kaiser lives in Vienna and speaks mainly German?

Then, there's the hypothesis that says that it means Dutch, and that he says he himself is of Dutch blood. Note that Duits, Diets and Duuts were pretty much regional variants at the time ... Well see the Dietsch article for more information.10:39, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I know this Dietsland discussion ... so what ...did you know that the full name of Yiddish is Yiddish Taytsh and Ashkenasim means German in Hebrew? We are talking about 16th century, most people of nowaday "Germany" also called themselves only occasionally "Germans", they normally were "Bavarians" or "Brandenburgians" or "Hessians" or any of the other 300 States or Statelets. They only needed "Deutsch" as distinction from Welsche (Romanic population speeking any kind of French or Italian - compare etymology of Wallonia) or Wenden (Slavic population). Or "Spaniards" like in this case. Furthermore the orthography of Standard German including how to write "Teutsh" was only fixed in the 19th century!

Look the crusaders were (and are still) called "Franks" by the Arabs. This doesn't mean they are all French! It depends on the context if a Canadian is American or not. Or wether a Brit considers himself European or not. Or wether Northern Ireland is British or not.

Please have a look at Dialect_continuum#Continental_West_Germanic and Netherlands_(terminology)#Dutch

All dialect (or regional language to be pc) speakers I know also refer to their own language as "Deutsch" and distinguish "Schriftdeutsch" ( compare Schwyzerdütsch, Plattdütsch). It's hard to believe that in the 16th century - long before the idea of nation states was born - it was handled differently in the Low Countries.

LanX --217.224.61.35 03:01, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Humorous adaptations

Could the original author of this paragraph explain why this should be in here? If this 'adaptation' would have been a translation of the text into modern Dutch, I could see what it adds. Since the new lyrics have nothing to do whatsoever with the original Wilhelmus, it is completely useless.

Please remove this section unless there are good reasons for keeping it. And at least, move it downward. As it is now, it comes before the real lyrics, which is very disturbing.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.247.100.39 (talk • contribs)

If the humerous adaption section header doesn't indicate that those aren't the real lyrics sure the text will. I can't imagine people getting confused by this. The value it adds is concerning the perceived obsoleteness by some.Rex 23:29, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, let's say I was confused somewhat. I agree with the perceived obsoleteness of the original text, but I think that mentioning that fact is good enough. I don't think citing some random new words on the same tune has any added value. After all, there are more 'adaptations' of the Wilhelmus, and this 'version' doesn't have any official status. Therefore I do not see why this should be mentioned. It just unneccessary ballast.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.247.100.39 (talk • contribs)

I agree. The section is not really interresting because this is only one of the adaptions, which is not really relevant. Pauluzz (talk) 17:28, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't completely at random, but I understand where you're coming from. I added the "humerous adaption" and the reference to the Utrechts nieuwsblad to "prove" the statement that some consider it a bit obsolete is not just POV of mine, but actually the case. I see it as a kind of illustrating the point being made there.Rex 10:58, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I still think the section is rather useless because there is only a small amount of dutch people that think the words are too hard to understand/too old. Also, the example given isn't all that great and has a nationalistic tone. Pauluzz (talk) 17:28, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I doubt how many dutch people would really like to see some song about tulips etc to be our national anthem. It's a really satirical song, which in my opinion is funny because it has all the possible stereotypes in it with which Dutch people don't really identify. There might be some resistance to the Wilhelmus, but mentioning this strange song has absolutely nothing to do with The Wilhelmus. I don't think anyone has even ever heard of it. Hence, please remove. Alvast bedankt. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.141.132.155 (talk) 10:04, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Luxembourg

Perhaps it ought to be mentioned that this song is als the official anthem of Luxembourg's monarchy —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ahassan05 (talk • contribs) 19:24, 3 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Moved to The William

As User:Rex Germanus is very busy moving articles (mainly those covering German matters, coincidentally) to new titles he calls "English", I decided to support him with this move of this anthem to The William. This is uncontroversial, as the person in question is also called William the Silent in English Wikipedia, not Wilhelmus. Compare to the much more famous Emperor William II of Germany, who is not called Kaiser Wilhelm zwo here either. Besides, William the Silent was born in present day (and then, of course) Germany^{[citation needed]}, and the lyrics also are a matter of interpretation, too.

Rex, (Personal attack removed) , surely would not support Dutch nationalism.-- Matthead ^discuß!     O       01:59, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Naturally I reverted this (Personal attack removed) edit, bordering on vandalism. Matthead, "Het Wilhelmus" is the name of the anthem, not "the william", which is a translation. I know you tried to irritate me because I interfered with your "edits" on persons of the teutonic order, (where you moved names already in English, as custom with nobility) reverting or modifying your (Personal attack removed) edits. Refrain from this kind of (Personal attack removed) actions. This time its a warning, next time I will report you to the admins.Rex 17:22, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I just want to add that I considered Rex`s antipathy against Germans respectively Germany always with a certain sence of humor but that he now starts converting German proper nouns (Eigennamen) into English is not acceptable at all. However, if he thinks that this is necessary on English Wikipedia I will from now on support him by changing eg Dutch names into English starting with Johannes Hendrik van den Broeck whose English name is - for sure - John Henry from the Broeck. I hope that no Dutch nationalist will try to revert it back to the Dutch name! Please refer also to my "Scale on Dutch Nationalism". Kind regards, (194.9.5.10 10:36, 28 February 2007 (UTC))

It was to be expected one of (Personal attack removed) would show up soon. Dear "anonymous" IP, nobility (afap) is always translated. JH van den Broeck wasn't a noble hence his name shouldn't be translated.Rex 14:45, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

PS, as an "anonymous" IP, you can't change article names.Rex 14:46, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Rex, you are really a funny guy but please refrain from peronal attacks and removing RPA, thx! (194.9.5.12 14:33, 1 March 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Nederlands o Nederlands

Should this article say anything about the song Nederlands o Nederlands, sung in part to the tune of Auld Lang Syne, which I have seen several times sung at sporting events as though it were a national anthem? Does this song have any official status? Is it prefered by people who dislike the overtly Christian nature of Het Wilhelmus? Question arising: how do Dutch Muslims feel about singing Het Wilhelmus? Do they do so? Are there any suggestions of changing the words to something less aggressively Christian? Intelligent Mr Toad 10:33, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Ugh... Nederland, o, Nederland is really just a popular soccer tune, and I certainly hope (and trust) it will never make it to national hymn status. (It merely informs us that our national team is champion and that we love them.) As to the Wilhelmus being "agressively Christian" ("pious" would be a better term to describe its content), I believe this comes up every once in a while, but as far as I know there are no serious plans to replace or adapt it. Iblardi 11:50, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I understand that the lyrics are sanctified by history, strange though they seem to foreigners. I suspect there are more people in the modern Netherlands, as in most European countruies, who place their faith in their football team than in God. Perhaps someone could write Het Cruijffus. Intelligent Mr Toad 06:28, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A one poem poet-like person?

Is that the technical term? 84.53.74.196 18:14, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Uhm, I don't think so. Not surprisingly, the number of Google hits for that 'term' is zero, too. Iblardi 19:42, 10 August 2007 (UTC)