Talk:Helen Keller

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Helen Keller article.
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Helen Keller was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. Reviewed version: June 20, 2006

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Contents 1 Hellen Keller jokes 2 Helen Keller in the arts and popular culture 3 The Story of My Life 4 Progressive vs. Socialist. 5 I re-directed the link... 6 GA Failed 7 Socialism 8 email message to user avsa 9 Amount of vandalism 10 Merged History 11 Honors 12 Recent vandalism 13 Spelling 14 thinking intelligibly? 15 Article is influenced by the myth of Helen Keller 16 Some facts to be integrated 17 Tadoma Method? 18 Gap 19 Pop culture reference 20 Born deaf blind 21 Sprotect requested 22 Helen's first speech teacher was Sarah and not Anne 23 Stupid Vandals! 24 Edit request 25 Merger request: Frost King 26 HELEN KELLER 27 family origins... GErmany or Switzerland? 28 Meshcheryakov reference 29 Messy parts 30 Place of death 31 Radical: This seems like POV 32 Why is this article locked? 33 Imagine being Helen... 34 Polly Thompson 35 Disabilities 36 Newly Discovered Photo 37 What about private life? 38 How?

[edit] Hellen Keller jokes

As a european I do not know much about Hellen Keller humor or jokes, but having found some referencies around the internet I came to Wikipedia to look for more info. Unfortunately there is absolutely no mention of that on the Hellen Keller wikipedia page even if there are tons of results on a google search for Hellen Keller jokes.

I think this is deeply wrong. The way I understand Wikipedia and the NPOV policy this kind of informantion should not be hidden even if they are tasteless and probably insulting to most people. <--- Nuts to that! It's called free speech.NPOV is different from beeing politically correct, it means (to me) reporting those facts or opinion that exist even if I dislike them, even if most people dislike them. Ithink that some not all of the jokes are not funny and should be removed.

Failing to mention popular culture tasteless jokes is not an act of respect, it is bad information. It is probably the worst thing a wikipedian could ever do to Wikipdia.

--Muzzle 13:23, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I added a line about the jokes based on the info I found on the net. I really wish someone more in the knowledge would check that.

Why was Helen Keller's name yellow?....Her dog was blind too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.18.58.227 (talk) 05:36, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

--Muzzle 15:38, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

• You could mention the fact of the jokes, perhaps, but I don't think the actual jokes would be appropriate. I don't really see how it's important anyway. --ShadowPuppet 03:15, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Per the above: You could probably mention the fact of the jokes, but also keep in mind it should be kept tight, as people will try to come in and just dump crude jokes like the ones I just reverted. --Shadow Puppet 22:51, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Jeph Loeb included some when writing Daredevil: Yellow. When some bar thugs taunt the blind attourney with Helen Keller jokes he first humiliates them playing pool and then teaches them a lesson when they attempt to school him in a back alley.

• I'm all for mentioning the jokes, but only stating one as an example, or something along those lines. But at the very least, mention them.

zero one zero zero one! Taco325i 00:47, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

i'm definitely against mentioning Helen Keller jokes on this article. There's no importance to it. Please justify your claim with an RfC. Jokes can be offensive, therefore it's not neutral, unless counter-balanced by another fact, by a reputable source. Wikipedia rules are not just facts (that there are Helen Keller jokes) it's about verifiability. Helen Keller Jokes can be word of mouth, pure original research , or published with copyrights. The article is about Helen Keller , her life, her works, her achievements, etc., and not about what anyone wrote about her (whether joke or not). Although i will consent a link to a Helen Keller joke website if that's your wish. Or write a separate article about Helen Keller jokes.203.76.245.122 19:34, 9 October 2006 (UTC) rebskii

• They are not encyclopedic, and do not belong. Wikibofh_(talk) 19:55, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia. Jokes about a person do not belong here. This is not the place.

I think due to the popularity and prevalence of Hellen Keller jokes, they have even found there way on to NPR multiple times, it would be worthwile to mention that they exists.

I don't think jokes bring much to the article. It definitely seems non-encyclopedic. And of bad taste. Mentioning that South Park made fun of them, for example (not that I know if they did or not) might fit in the article, especially if it raised a controversy. Flammifer 05:51, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I can see both sides ... one option would be to have the jokes discussion be in some other article entirely, and have "Helen Keller jokes" point to that article, while "Helen Keller" points to this one. Thoughts?Lawikitejana 07:26, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

{{editprotected}} This article should mention the jokes but not necessarily tell the jokes themselves. Helen Keller jokes are a major part of the English-speaking world's culture. To not mention them would be to suppress information for the sake of politeness. Most comments here favour mentioning them so thats what we will do. If anyone deletes the mention we will put it back. We will have a REVERT WAR if necessary.

This is what I wrote. Please feel free to comment on this post:

Jokes about Helen Keller are popular in the English-Speaking world. They were a key feature of the book Truly Tasteless Jokes. The jokes are more offensive than funny. The humour arises from the joke-teller having the gall to tell the jokes, as well as the inherent innocence and vulnerability of the butt of the joke (Keller). Most would agree that Helen Keller jokes are in very poor taste.

Umm I think that we should be able to post up anything we want. It's called free speech. Jokes are acceptable. So shut up you retards who think they're not. 
                                                           -sexy renee  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.83.112.151 (talk) 19:37, 18 March 2008 (UTC) 

--Jon in California 1 Sep 2007

{{editprotected}} This article is "protected" from being edited. This shows that sensitive, over-protective types are preventing us from even mentioning the jokes, eventhough this discussion page shows most of us think mentioning the jokes is approprate. This is censorship of the wikipedia community and I recomend that we 1) mention the jokes 2) remove the protection and 3) Keep a vigilant eye out for inaproprate vandalism.

--Jon in California 2 September 2007

The jokes discussion here ended almost a year ago. The protection to this page is meant to prevent vandalism, not any particular constructive edits. Further, {{editprotected}} is meant for when you have an explicit edit request. If that is the case, please start a new section at the bottom of this discussion containing the specific edits you are requesting, or create an account and wait a few days for the ability to edit semi-protected pages, like this one. In the meantime, I have disabled the templates you added to this page. Someguy1221 06:08, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

1) The joke discussion is still going on, nothing is ever finalised in wikipedia. 2) I did not create a new section at the bottom of this discussion containing the specific edits I am requesting; the edit I am requesting is mentioned above in the jokes section (I advocate mentioning the jokes, my, the exact words I would like to include are above). 3) It seems to me that the page is 'protected' to prevent mentioning the jokes, not to prevent true vandalism. Many pages get vandalised and they are not protected, the wikipedia community just needs to keep a lookout for it. But most people here want the jokes mentioned while a sensitive minority has managed to put a lock on edits to prevent such a mention. I must strongly object. --Jon in California 3 September 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.127.73.82 (talk) 22:43, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I must admit that I find Helen Keller jokes to be absolutley hysterical but it should be obvious that they do not belong here. Are there George Bush jokes in his article? No. A link to a joke article would be more appropriate. She would have wanted it that way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.29.216.190 (talk) 14:10, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Are there ethnic jokes on the pages describing countries and ethnicities? "N* jokes" and "P* jokes" etc. are also part of popular culture, but I don't see that they have a place on a neutral, informative site. People in the public consciousness often have derogatory jokes made about them that center on particular characteristics, but that doesn't mean those jokes or mention of their existence have any place in an encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.59.8.10 (talk) 16:45, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

The jokes are Keller's most important cultural legacy. Without the jokes she's just another jew who had a bad vacation in Poland. It's pathetic for Keller bumlicks to sanitize the page to protect their delicate sensibilities. 76.30.115.236 (talk) 01:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

 * Hey moron, you have your distasteful joke sources wrong.  You are thinking about Anne Frank. 208.179.66.68 (talk) 03:56, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Helen Keller in the arts and popular culture

I find this section troubling. It only seems to trivialize the article and Helen Keller. I'd like to see it removed or trimmed down to how she has been represented in movies about her. I really don't see what Family Guy has to do with Helen Keller or how including trivia about Family Guy enhances anyone's understanding of her. Anyone agree? Brian G. Crawford 22:13, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to go ahead and remove the off-topic references. Revert me if you have to. Brian G. Crawford 23:57, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree; thanks for removing them. The only caveat I have is about Helen Keller jokes. These days, sadly, if people are talking about Keller, there's a significant chance they're telling Helen Keller jokes. The sentence on jokes that you removed was unhelpful, and you were right to remove it, but I think in principle that a more thoughtful, encyclopedic mention of these jokes might be appropriate if someone wanted to write it. --Allen 02:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I see it this way. Most people have heard of Helen Keller jokes, and won't be helped or enlightened in any way by reading that they exist. Those that haven't heard a Helen Keller joke don't need to be encouraged to start telling them. Those who have just heard one and are checking here will quickly discover that she was deaf and blind. Then they can decide whether to laugh. I think it's one of those situations where WP:BEANS applies. Mentioning the jokes may encourage people to add them to the article. Brian G. Crawford 03:41, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I removed the sentence: "Keller has been featured in both TV-cartoons South Park and Family Guy." It seems to me that it's a) not particularly relevant, and b) not particularly true. In both instances, it is not really Keller herself being directly referenced, but the play The Miracle Worker (as performed onstage by actors). I checked, and, yes, this is pointed out in the article about the play, where it is relevant. A bit picky, I know, but still... --Tellybelly 02:48, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Story of My Life

The book, The Story of My Life, being a notable autobiography, I think deserves a separate article. I'll probably look into it, feel free to contribute. Brz7 02:01, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Progressive vs. Socialist.

I changed the sentence to read that she supported socialist causes, not progressive. The term "progressive" is a political buzzword that means nothing and, indeed, can be applied to almost anything. Being that a.) She was a member of the Socialist Party and b.) a support of IWW, a Socialist Union, the term socialist is more accurate.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.178.133.197 (talk) 15:25, May 21, 2006

• Do you have a citation? There are a lot of causes that can be considered progressive that weren't socialist. Suffrage comes to mind off the top of my head. Wikibofh_(talk) 15:35, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

• The IWW (Industrial Workers of the World) was (is) more of an anarcho-syndicalist organization than a socialist one. John Elder 09:27, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the original point, that as applied in the US today, progressive is used as a political buzzword: but it doesn't "mean nothing." POV. Suffrage is now not considered socialist, and the IWW may now be considered anarcho-syndicalist, but socialism was generally more acceptable term in the US back then. I think that perhaps the US is unusual as an industrialized country, in that women's suffrage (or universal suffrage) was not connected to socialism. Cuvtixo 01:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I re-directed the link...

I redirected the link to Ragnhild Kaata to point to Ragnhild Kåta (which I just wrote -- it's my first article, so any pointers are welcome). The Norwegian letter å is usually transliterated aa on 7-bit systems, but since we're in a brave new unicode world the change seemed appropriate. There's precedence in the Bjørnstjerne Bjørnson article. --TheBjorn 22:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Failed

This is a well-written article, but it needs to have references and citations (which need to be from reliable sources). This article only has a couple of references - and that's just for one section. Also you need to extend your lead section - need to summarize some of her achievements there. Once you've done that feel free to re-nominate the article for WP:GA.--Konstable 09:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Socialism

Considering Helen Keller herself wrote so much on socialism, a better presentation on Keller's socialist politics would include her own words, and not some obscure quote from her early life. As a recent biographer noted, "[Helen] was very violent in a lot of her political opinions, and she supported really violent measures."

Removed:

She favored revolutionary socialism, as opposed to the reformist socialism later adopted by the socialist party.

From http://www.btinternet.com/~neuronaut/webtwo_features_keller.htm

The Russian writer, Maxim Gorky, met Helen in 1906 and afterwards wrote: "[She] made an unpleasant, even grim, impression on me. She appeared to be an affected, very temperamental and extremely spoilt girl. She talked about God and how God disapproved of revolution. In general, she reminded me of those blessed and holy nuns and 'pilgrim women' whom I have seen in our villages and convents." Another telling incident was an embarrassing episode when Helen wrote a fairy tale which so enthused her friends that they had it published in a newspaper. The story (about King Frost painting the autumn leaves in bright colours to console people for the coming of winter) seemed especially touching coming from a woman who could not see. But it turned out that Helen had unwittingly retold an old fairy tale she had heard as a child. A sympathetic public was eager to see in Helen a noble mind triumphing against the odds. But the reality was that Helen was so cut off from the world that she found it hard to tell the difference between her memories and her imagination. She had learnt to juggle words, but it is questionable how much understanding lay behind the fine sentiments that so pleased her audiences.

Also take into consideration that it was just a popular idea of the times. Don't emphasize it to the point of POV and nausea. --Shadow Puppet 22:54, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

We have a current Socialist Senator in the USA ... it wasn't just a popular idea "once upon a time." It's an idea that continues to have power and to attract many. John Elder 09:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

---

Reverted this page to previous version due to minor vandalism by 165.138.192.9

[edit] email message to user avsa

I think the Vetter link from the Helen Keller page is a reasonable contribution.

However, the current wording gives a wrong impression. Helen "lived in her own world" only until the "breakthrough" of communication. The text of the link suggests that this was her normal state.

She toured the country, gave speeches, was aware of events throughout the world, participated in politics and the campaign for human rights. She helped to found the ACLU.

Could the reference to Vetter reflect that being isolated was a very temporary state for her, or at least not give a wrong impression?

thanks,

richard myers

Ok, agree, what would be your suggestion? Hellen keller admitted living in a world quite different from everybody else. See this note she wrote: : www.millicentlibrary.org/ hhr-100.htm . Of course she could be referring to our world also, but my point is that the she and david vetter both lived in our world but experienced it in a unique, form.

Note. Myers, wikipedia etiquette asks you to discuss a page not privately in email, but in wikipedia's talk page. So this way anyone may join the conversation. But feel free to email me if you want to reach me for any reason. --Alexandre Van de Sande 19:05, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Responding...

Here are comments on "The World I Live In", Keller's sequel to her autobiography, from Amazon.com:

(The book) "remains almost completely unknown. Here, responding to skeptics who doubted that a girl who was blind, deaf, and mute almost from birth could find words to describe her experience, Keller presents a striking word-picture of her reality. 'The World I Live In' is an evocative, inspirational, and deeply moving account of an extraordinary woman's keenest impressions."

"she grew to fully embrace her intelligence, her world and her potential . . . wow."

My suggestion for a simple change is simply adding the initial phrase:

"Like Helen in her early life, David Vetter..."

Thanks, Alexandre!

best wishes, richard myers

[edit] Amount of vandalism

Why is there so much vandalism on this page? It seems that once a week we have to revert random edits. Do all pages suffer from this, and I'm only seeing it here because I'm watching it? --Lkesteloot 06:30, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thankfully, not all pages get vandalized like this. Some pages seem like dispute or vandal magnets (Surrealism, for example, is a highly contentious page). I would assume that in this case it's because she was a disabled socialist now most often depicted as a moral but apolitical hero (or at least this was so in my childhood). So given the ability issue, the political issue, and the disorientation caused by readers possible expectations combine to incite a lot of vandalism. Hyacinth 07:57, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, the vandalism is truly pathetic. For those looking for the good in humanity, here's an inspirational story (one of those e-mail forwards, but it looks like it's actually true): Perfection at the Plate. --J. J. 19:53, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I haven't read the "inspirational" story and will not on the basis of the above recommendation. The "good in humanity!" Really! It is the sancrosanctness applied to celebrated people which invites vandalism. "Given the... Disorientation caused by readers possible expectations": True enough but it can be phrased: When a celebrity is placed above criticism, the temptation to ridicule the subject rises exponentially. The more Keller is portrayed as a real, flawed human being, the less people will vandalize. Or at least I hope! More "outrage" doesn't help, anyway. Cuvtixo 00:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I lied. The above Snopes.com story has been improved I think (updated Feb 23, 2007) so I don't know if its the same version that J.J. read. Applies a lot more than I thought possible! Cuvtixo 01:35, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

The sentence: "She dated the movie star, Kristen Brosious, and fulfilled her lesbian fantasies." taken down on 10 Jan 2006 due to inability to find a source.

The section "Hellen Keller Deniers" should be removed. I am listening to the podcast in question right now and there's no reasonable assertion that Hellen Keller's story was faked. They simply discuss the possibility that something like that could happen, in a very far fetched manner. The majority of the discussion is based around the fact that Kevin Smith says he can't relate to the idea of not seeing or hearing and yet still being able to conceptualize language related to things you've never directly experienced without a point of reference to your senses. Smith's overall conclusion was that he didn't think it was a hoax and demonstrated a clear lack of complete knowledge about Keller's life apart from the basic idea that she was blind/deaf and learned to communicate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.149.244.108 (talk) 05:58, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merged History

History of some of the text that was merged into the article now resides at Talk:Helen Keller/Merged. – ABCD 20:38, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Honors

What does "native daughter" mean in the honors section? Can it be re-worded to something a little more universally understood?

It's a flowery way of saying that she was born in Alabama. I changed that sentence so it could be more easily understood. Bellhalla 06:59, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Recent vandalism

This article has been undergoing quite a bit of vandalism recently. I believe the movie is The Miracle Worker.--Dakota ~ ° 01:23, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

Helen is written once as Hellen in the document. I would update it but am now allowed.

• Thanks. I've fixed it. I'm just tired of constant vandalism, but I regret that it prevented your well intentioned correction. Wikibofh_(talk) 03:12, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

That is quite alright. I understand you must maintain a balance between freedom to alter and freedom to deface. Thank you for updating it so quickly.

[edit] thinking intelligibly?

Right now, the article says, "Anne was able to teach Helen to think intelligibly." I know very little about Keller, but is this really true? It seems extreme to say that Keller's thinking was unintelligible before Sullivan's teaching, but if that's how Keller later characterized it, I guess it makes sense to say it that way. --Allen 00:41, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

It's gone now, so it doesn't matter, but the use of "intelligible" in this way is a malapropism. Intelligibility is a characteristic of speech. One cannot "think intelligibly" any more than one can "see loudly". EmmetCaulfield 16:36, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article is influenced by the myth of Helen Keller

While this article a lot of good information about Helen Keller, it misses most of the serious historical truth in favor of the mythical Helen Keller and Anne Sullivan that was portrayed in movies such as "Miracle Worker". I have seen the truth in serious biographies of Helen Keller and Anne Sullivan, although the titles escape me at the moment -- I will come back if I find them.

Keller's left-wing politics is one departure from the mythical narrative that this page does explain pretty well. But the page should do more. It is true that Sullivan's first task was to tame Helen. It is not true that she had a "big breakthrough in communication". She learned to communicate gradually, just like other children. It is generally true that with communcation comes ideas and thought. One commenter here asks whether Sullivan deserves credit for teaching Helen Keller how to think. Unfortunately, she deserves all too much credit for that.

The hardest part of teaching in general, and teaching impaired children in particular, is separating the teacher from the student. Anne Sullivan didn't do this. On the contrary, she was Helen Keller's main communication link to the outside world for decades, with several important consequences.

First, it was the accidental reason that Keller and Sullivan ever became famous. (It wasn't just because Helen Keller learned to communicate, since after all the Perkins School taught Bridgman and others.) Through Sullivan, Keller appeared to write kind, mature, encouraging letters to other disabled children. These letters were published and made Keller famous. However, they were also coached by Sullivan, and led to false expectations of how much Keller had progressed. Sullivan did not deliberately plan these false expectations -- any written letter from a 10-year-old Helen Keller would have to be coached to some degree -- but she also did not manage them properly.

For example, Keller got in trouble at Perkins for plagiarizing a children's story. She didn't do this intentionally. Rather, it happened because she did not separate her identity from Anne Sullivan; Sullivan had almost certainly read her the story. Unfortunately, Keller and Sullivan did not accept the real explanation, even though the evidence of plagiarism was overwhelming.

Keller had one serious romance in adulthood that was, according to the biography, destroyed by Anne Sullivan. By then, Sullivan couldn't bear to part with Keller; she was also in a position to break off communication.

Keller later wrote an autobiography that many readers find disturbing, again because she didn't separate her own persona from what Sullivan told her.

My recollection is also that Keller never really learned to speak with her voice, although she badly wanted to and worked hard it. The Tadoma method doesn't usually work, as the page for it explains. I remember the comment that Keller would reach down into Sullivan's throat and that it was quite painful for Sullivan.

Greg Kuperberg 23:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks for taking a look at the article and taking the time to comment. My only concern is to make sure that these assertions are backed up by good citations and avoiding original research. Thanks again for taking the time to comment, and I hope you can continue and work to improve the article.

The book that I read was "Helen Keller: A Life", by Dorothy Herrmann. Nothing that I have in mind is original research; however, my recollection is not quite perfect either. Anne Sullivan did describe the incident with spelling w-a-t-e-r as a breakthrough. Where the article goes wrong is in implying that it was the breakthrough. It meant that Helen understood the concept of a word, but it took a long time after that for her to learn how to make phrases and sentences. There was a long period of baby talk.

Also, it was not just Annie, but also Helen Keller's mother who did not want Helen Keller to marry Peter Fagan.

Anyway, Herrmann's book is an excellent source that would do a great deal to improve this article. (I don't have time to do all of the work myself, but people who are invested in this article should read this source.) For example, here is a quote that explicitly contradicts the Wikipedia page: "Helen Keller's lifelong dream was to learn to speak clearly, a goal she never accomplished despite years of laborious practice." Greg Kuperberg 01:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some facts to be integrated

Add recently (March 2008) discovered picture http://www.newenglandancestors.org/images_nehgs/helen_kellerlg.jpg from Thaxter P. Spencer Collection, R. Stanton Avery Special Collections, New England Historic Genealogical Society-Boston. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bear1952 (talk • contribs) 02:31, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

These sources[1][2] claim:

• at the age of 36, she took out a marriage license with journalist and her one-time secretary Peter Fagan, but that her parents forcibly removed her from the relationship.
• at her family's urging, she had her eyes surgically removed at age 30, replaced with more cosmetically appealing false eyes.
• she worked for some time on the vaudeville circuit. "In 1919 she began a four-year stretch appearing with Sullivan in vaudeville shows. On her tour, she met such celebrities as Charlie Chaplin, Enrico Caruso, and Harpo Marx."
• she convinced Israel to stop segregating the blind and disband a village set aside for their use.

-- Ds13 16:44, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The last point interests me. The book "The Radical Lives of Helen Keller" (by Kim E. Nielsen, ISBN 0814758134) reports that Keller (like her friend Alexander Graham Bell) viewed deafness and blindness as terrible conditions that should be eradicated, and both supported eugenics as a means of eradicating them. Keller identified racism, sexism and capitalism as forces of oppression, but saw disability as having purely physiological, and not social causes, and refused to support disability rights. Apparently Keller had been steered away from advocacy for Deaf people by Bell and Michael Anagnos, and had a personal dislike of Deaf culture and sign language. Her support for oralism naturally produced enmity from the Deaf community. Her choice to distance herself from others with disabilities fits with her opposition to segregation of blind people in Israel, and her support for their assimilation into the mainstream. Perhaps some mention of this also belongs in the article? ntennis 06:43, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

if someone wants to make relevant citations from that book, it would be welcome. However, terms like "disability rights" and "eugenics" had a very different meaning in her time, and "Deaf culture" as a concept did not exist. The "Deaf community" was not a united group, congenitally deaf people were rather isolated. And the phrase "the choice to distance herself from others with disabilities fits with..." is opinionated psychological analysis, not encyclopedic material. Cuvtixo 00:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

A trivia tidbit, I noticed that this article talks about her Akita Dogs, but makes no reference to her Pit Bull, the US postal service even made a stamp featuring her and her Pit Bull terrier.

[edit] Tadoma Method?

It is my understanding that the Tadoma method was created later than when Helen Keller learned to speak. One of the biographies of Helen Keller states this . Is this true?

[edit] Gap

The article goes straight from "She learned that water=water at age 7" to "She was writing short stories at 10" .. that's a huge cognitive leap! What happened in between?

[edit] Pop culture reference

I removed this addition today:

Keller was also repeatedly referenced in the 2006 cult movie Clerks II by one of the main characters, who confused her with Anne Frank.

This was added to the "portrayals" section, but is not a portrayal. However, it could be added to a trivia/pop culture section if someone wanted to make one. Doctormatt 18:48, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Born deaf blind

She was born blind and deaf; after nineteen months of age she came down with an illness described by doctors as "an acute congestion of the stomach and the brain", which could have possibly been scarlet fever or meningitis. The illness did not last for a particularly long time, but it left her deaf and blind.

This needs to be fixed/reworded - was she born deaf and blind, or did the illness cause it? catParade 23:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

"She was not born blind and deaf..." I think you just missed seeing the 'not'. --Doc Tropics ^{Message in a bottle} 23:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sprotect requested

I have requested Semi-protection for this page due to ongoing Anon vandalisms. Many thanks to all the editors who have been watching this page and reverting. --Doc Tropics ^{Message in a bottle} 20:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Helen's first speech teacher was Sarah and not Anne

Helen's first speech teacher was Sarah Fuller of the Horace Mann School. Helen began to speak at the age of 10.

references - 1.[ http://www.brailleinstitute.org/Services/AboutHelenKeller.htm] 2.[ http://www.lionsclubs.org/EN/content/vision_services_keller.shtml] 3. [3]

Please correct the article to indicate Sarah as the speech teacher for Helen.

--59.92.149.150 03:03, 5 November 2006 (UTC)regards, Ravi also in her auto biography "the storey of my life" Rhinorulz 21:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stupid Vandals!

I can't belive that stupid vandals, just want to post that stupid joke about her driving a car among other things. You should not make fun of somebody like that!--Hailey 22:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The alleged jokes can be deleted faster than they can be entered, but if this contiues I will request an Sprotect for the article. Doc Tropics 22:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Good, It makes me sad, that people can be that hurtful to others, especally those with disabilites, they also seem to like picking on Max Cleland--Hailey 22:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

"It was the beginning of a 49-year-long relationship filled with rape." This appears to be vandalism, so I am deleting it. 70.149.224.195 09:37, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah, never mind, someone beat me to it I really love Helen Keller. 70.149.224.195 09:38, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

they don't know what it is like Yeah, how would they feel if they were or knew somebody like that?--Hailey 00:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit request

from: Biography

Childhood Helen Keller was born at an estate called Ivy Green in Tuscumbia, Alabama, on June 27, 1880, to parents Captain Arthur H. Keller, a former officer of the Confederate Army, and Kate Adams Keller.

to: Biography

Childhood Helen Keller was born at an estate called Ivy Green in Tuscumbia, Alabama, on June 27, 1880, to parents Captain Arthur H. Keller, a former officer of the Confederate Army, and Kate Adams Keller second cousin of Robert E Lee. Rhinorulz 21:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I've made the edit per your request. Thryduulf 00:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Template:Editrestrected

helen grandmother was second cousin to robert E. lee not mother.

sorry about the accedent.

Rhinorulz 21:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I came across this page as part of my research for a teaching presentation, and thought I would share a few of my other sources.

Here is a quote from Helen Keller's second biography about her life, 'Midstream.' It deals with her reasons for turning to socialism.

"I had once believed that we were all masters of our fate -- that we could mould our lives into any form we pleased. I had overcome deafness and blindness sufficiently to be happy, and I supposed that anyone could come out victorious if he threw himself valiantly into life's struggle. But as I went more and more about the country I learned that I had spoken with assurance on a subject I knew little about. I forgot that I owed my success partly to the advantages of my birth and envrionment. Now, however, I learned that the power to rise in the world is not within the reach of everyone."

Helen Keller, 'Midstream: My Later Life.' New York, Greenwood, 1929, p 156.

She also discusses visiting mill towns, mining towns, and packing towns, with the quote "If I could not see them, I could smell them." ibid, p 101.

A text dealing with Helen Keller's socialism summarizes, in what I think is a useful way, "Kellet's commitment to socialism stemmed from her experience as a disabled person and from her sympathy for others with handicaps. She began by working to symplify the alphabet for the blind, but soon came to realize that to deal solely with blindness was to treat the effect, not thecause. Through research she learned that blindness was not distributed randomly through the population but was concentrated in the lower class. Men who were poor might be blinded in industrial accidents; poor women who became prostitutes faced the additional danger of syphilitic blindness. Thus Keller learned how the social class system contrls people's opportunities in life, sometimes determining even whether they can see." James Loewen, 'Lies My Teacher Told Me,' The New Press, New York, 1995; p 12.

Keller was also a supporter, in the beginning at least, of the Communist nation in Russia. From "Onward, Comrades," an address to the student body at the Rand School of Social Science, New York, Dec 31, 1920: "In the East a new star is risen! With pain and anguish the old order has given birth to the new, and behold in the East a manchild is born! Onward, comrades, all together! Onward to the campfires of Russia! Onward to the coming dawn!" Quite inspiring, if you're into that sort of thing.

[edit] Merger request: Frost King

The subject is interesting, but the article isn't well written.

It is too categorical.

It portrays a remarkable individual in a negative light, for which one ought to have significant evidence, if it is to withstand the necessary burden of proof for inclusion in the main article about that person. Yet it isn't well sourced. It offers speculation.

I think if it was merged into the main Helen Keller article, it would magnify one controversial (and disputed?) incident beyond what is reasonable.

I would vote NO on this merge suggestion.

The article as it stands is such a poor addition to the subject of Helen Keller, i look forward to the disappearance of the merge request notice. Richard Myers 21:06, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I was the one who added the merge suggestion. I'm a bit of a newbie, and it's the first merge suggestion I made. I've seen it in other websites besides Wikipedia, though I'm not sure where. Maybe we can shorten it and then merge it here, or vice versa. I am also quite a fan of Helen Keller, and don't want her to be in a negative light, however this did happen in her life. I think it makes more sense to have it here than in a seperate article.--Umalee 18:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I am the writer of the original article and a huge Keller/Sullivan fan from early childhood. Just because she and Annie are remarkable individuals doesn't mean that there aren't negative things about what happened. The incident took place as recorded. It's documented in several books. And, in fact, it had a huge impact on Helen's and Annie's lives. It haunted them the rest of their lives. They lost the respect of Michael Anagnos and the goodwill of the Perkins School. Helen lost her ability to engage in what might have been a lucrative activity through the rest of her life (fiction writing), and considering the struggle she and Annie had to earn $ for the rest of their lives, that's a considerable loss right there, besides the enjoyment her readers would have had. People who might have given them money withdrew their support. The Frost King scandal was a major factor in the challenges Helen faced getting her secondary education and going on to college. Annie was already facing a lot of hostility from people who felt that she was sockpuppeting Helen and that the things Helen said and did did not originate with Helen's own ideas but were all instigated or prompted by Annie. --Bluejay Young 07:23, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Why are there no footnotes, no references, in the Frost King article? How would we know where this negative portrayal originates?

The sources I used are mentioned in the text of the Frost King article and in in the "External Links" at bottom; I will add official-type ref-tags to Helen's, Joseph P. Lash's and also Dorothy Herrmann's books on Helen's life. It's all in there. --Bluejay Young 19:03, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I remain very much against this merge. I wouldn't want things that i did at age twelve not only to be dug up and thrown at me as part of a bio of my entire life, but also portrayed in a negative fashion, and entirely unsourced at that. How about you?

Could we please have some more people weigh in? Richard Myers 21:39, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I would vote no on the merger. The The Frost King article currently is incredibly weak, with no citations at all. I suggest improving the Frost King article first, and then reconsider merging into Helen Keller, though I don't particularly see a need for it: note that there is currently a linking paragraph to The Frost King in the Helen Keller article. (Though even that linking paragraph is badly in need of references). Doctormatt 22:12, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't want to have things that I did at age twelve 'dug up and thrown at me', but as Bluejay young has noted, this is exactly what happened during Helen Keller's lifetime. There are several people today who say that essentially Helen was subject to sockpuppeting, and that she never had a mind of her own. However, the other concerns are legit, IMO. I think there's a better chance of the frost kings article being referenced and better written if it were merged into this article, since people are much more likely to search for "Helen Keller" than "The Frost Kings", assuming those people had good intentions and are bold, which they aren't. --Umalee 21:12, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

(They aren't? Huh, I see lots of well-intentioned, bold people here all the time...) Yes, interesting point: the Keller article would be seen, and hopefully improved, by more people. But the suggestion is to add a bad article's content into a good article. This would mean adding unreferenced, volatile material to the article, and this is not what we're supposed to be doing here on WP. That the Frost King article continues to exists as it is is a mark on the whole project. Plus, as I said above, there is information about the Frost King matter in Helen Keller, with a link to The Frost King. Not every biographical scrap has to go in the main article. The more I think about it, the more I vote no on this merger: fix The Frost King, and keep the link to it in the main article. Doctormatt 22:40, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Since the general consensus seems to be no, I will remove the merger tag. --Umalee 02:48, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I would like to see The Frost King improved as a separate article. Adding specific citations would be a good start. And, removing speculation, and also some of the words/expressions that are too categorical. As i indicated above, the article certainly is interesting. But when i read it, i'd like to not feel that someone is trying to convince me of how awful the episode was-- the facts can do that, if they're supported. Richard Myers 04:00, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

As I said, I will put in official type footnote style references if those are what's needed. I put some of my sources in the external links, mentioning others (Joseph Lash, etc.) within the text itself. Is it not all right to quote the speculations of others writing about this subject? These are not my speculations at the end, they are biographer Joseph Lash's. --Bluejay Young 14:44, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] HELEN KELLER

In 1880 on June 27 Helen Keller was born in Ivy Green Tuscumbia Alabama. Helen Kellers parent were Kate Adams Keller and Captain Arthur H Keller. Helen Keller was not born blind and deaf when she was nineteen mothns she had a illness. When Helen Keller was sever she had sixty different signs to communicate with her family. Anne Sullivan was Helen Kellers teacher.

Helen Kellers frist book was LIGHT IN MY DARKNESN and she did another book and it was THE STORY OF MY LIFE on of the books were published in 1960 and the other one was published in 1903.

In 1900 Helen Keller went to college and in 1904 Helen Keller graduate from college. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.125.141.93 (talk) 21:10, 19 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] family origins... GErmany or Switzerland?

The page currently says that the Keller family is from Germany, but Keller's autobiography, "The Story of My Life" says that they are from Switzerland. Skittles 06 02:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)skittles_06

[edit] Meshcheryakov reference

According to his biography [4], Alexander Meshcheryakov defended his doctoral dissertation in pedagogical psychology in 1953 at Moscow Defectology Institute. His advisor was Prof. Alexander Luria and the title was "Interruption of collaboration of two signal systems during simple reaction formation in patients with local brain damages." Unmet 02:16, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

correction: Statement about Helen Keller appeared in the second level doctoral dissertation of A. Meshcheryakov (Doctor of Science in Soviet classfication as opposed to a first level dissertation: Candidate of Science - roughly Ph.D). Titled "Deaf-blind Children (psychological development in a process of education)", the dissertation was defended in 1971 at the Moscow Defectology Insitute. Unmet 02:41, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Messy parts

(This page suggests father was of Swiss descent ("decent"), http://www.afb.org/braillebug/askkeller.asp?issueid=200511).

Geez, this is worded badly. It should just be something like:

..., although some sources claim that her father was of Swiss descent.

with a reference.

No need to make this a spelling bee... descent vs decent.

Also... what's with the other funny references? e.g.

The ([5]) Helen Keller Hospital is also dedicated to her.

These have been fixed/changed. Please remember to sign all comments on talk pages with four tildes (~~~~). Also, remember that it takes about as much time to complain about something on Wikipedia as it does to fix it yourself, so dive in, whoever you are! Cheers, Doctormatt 01:56, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Place of death

There seems to be some confusion, around the internet at least, as to where Keller died. As far as I can determine, she died at her house Arcan Ridge, in Easton, Connecticut. This is near Westport, and she apparently had a Westport postal address; as a result, Westport is often reported incorrectly as her place of death. Here are some references:

• http://www.westportnow.com/archives/000857.htm
• http://www.accuracyproject.org/cbe-Keller,Helen.html
• Easton, Connecticut

Doctormatt 19:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Radical: This seems like POV

"Keller and her friend Mark Twain were both radicals whose political views have been forgotten or glossed over in their popular perception." This seems like pure opinion. Should this be removed? Timothy Chen Allen 18:57, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I removed it. Doctormatt 01:00, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it should be rewritten rather than removed. It's all chronicled in Josph P. Lash's and Dorothy Herrmann's biographies about her being a Socialist, NAACP, ACLU and IWW, but I've seen numerous documentaries and several biographies that don't mention it at all or, yes, gloss over it. Her family also tried to hush it up along with her lifelong belief in Swedenborgian spiritualism, and in fact overrode her express instructions in her will in order to hold her funeral in the family's church saying that "she hadn't really been that interested" in Swedenborgianism. --Bluejay Young 06:14, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I took it out since it was uncited. If you can add citations, please go ahead and put it back in. Cheers, Doctormatt 06:37, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Citations were added. Arthurrh (talk) 02:02, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

'Radical' is still POV. The title of this citation only seems to reinforce that notion, and besides, this is not a rewrite. I'd rather see the word itself go unused, or at least then be used as an adjective to a noun describing a certain set of values or a political direction. Radical reformers, could be. Radical libertarians, perhaps. Radical anarchists, I doubt it. But here's the thing: if you want to make the assertion that Keller and Clemens / Twain were 'radical' anything, there should be citations both for the 'radical', by examples of their nonconformity or willingness to go to extreme lengths for their political ideals, as well as for their political direction, by examples of political statements, actions or memberships. The informational content of the word 'radical' by itself is pretty much zero.

Finally, the historicity of this claim should also be taken into account. What made one a 'radical' then may not do so now... and vice versa. As it is, I think the term's just used as a pejorative, is definitely not NPOV, and should be removed. 213.84.246.79 (talk) 21:54, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's being used as a pejorative here, certainly. More problematically, the article is making an argument here -- or presenting someone else's argument as its own -- that Twain and Keller's political views were censored or sanitized either by or for people who disagreed with them. That's a fairly incendiary argument; while I wouldn't be surprised if it's true to an extent, at least as far as portraying them 'inoffensively' goes (this article provides decent sources on Keller's political activities, which have been left out of many accounts of her life), I think that it might be better if this section described it as 'professor XYZ of blahblahblah argues that...' and presenting any dissenting views we can find rather than having the article state, outright, that Keller and Twain were censored by history. This cites the claim that she was a 'radical' to someone specific, rather than stating it in the article, and would be appropriate if it's a widespread topic of discussion or dispute. Alternatively (and I think I would prefer this), it could be turned into a sourced note at the beginning of the section on her politics, stating (without passing judgement) e.g. "Although most biographies and coverage of Keller's life have focused almost exclusively on the way she overcame her disabilities, she was also active in politics..." This excludes the word 'radical' entirely, leaving it to the reader to read the following description of her politics and decide how radical they were. It also avoids making a judgement on what parts of her life the biographies covered (whereas the current sentence seems to contain an implict judgement that her political views were 'glossed over' deliberately.) --Aquillion (talk) 02:51, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

It is important to point that Helen Keller and Mark Twain were both considered radicals in the socio-political context present in the United States at the beginning of the 20th century. Considering the way socialism was perceived in those decades, their political views have been forgotten or glossed over in popular perception.Alexemanuel (talk) 11:43, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why is this article locked?

very strange! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vanispay2 (talk • contribs) 00:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Imagine being Helen...

Wouldnt' it be so wierd being deaf and blind? It would be like being a jellyfish —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.89.9.39 (talk) 03:54, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Polly Thompson

More than forty years ago, I read a biography of Helen Keller--one written for children. That biography had a lot to say about one Polly Thompson (and I'm not sure to the spelling). According to that book, this Polly Thompson came to America from Scotland for a family visit. She got to know Helen Keller and Anne Sullivan, and stayed with them. After Anne Sullivan died, Polly Thompson stayed on with Helen Keller and, according to the book, her "visit" lasted more than forty years. But I've never heard of her anywhere else but that little paperback book.

Anybody else heard of her? I begin to wonder if she was a created character, in a book that read more like a children's story than a biography. 140.147.160.78 (talk) 15:14, 23 November 2007 (UTC)Stephen Kosciesza

See new "Companions" section. Arthurrh (talk) 02:01, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disabilities

Was she just a deafblind, or was she also mute? Anybody knows? And also we need a section about the jokes because thats what most people know her for. (74.134.124.3 (talk) 19:33, 25 November 2007 (UTC))

I suppose that depends on how one defines "mute." She presumably had all the functioning apparatus to speak. As far as she didn't, it would have been because she couldn't hear to learn spoken language in the usual way--not to mention that she couldn't hear herself. She learned language, of course--several of them. And she did, through great effort, learn to speak--although how well she ever did it, I do not know. 140.147.160.78 (talk) 22:47, 29 November 2007 (UTC)Stephen Kosciesza

[edit] Newly Discovered Photo

The newly discovered photo is very likely not in the public domain yet. This photo was taken in July 1888 by an unknown photographer. I presume it was first published in 2008. It's copyright expires the 12/31 after the photo's 120th anniversary. That means it enters the public domain on 1/1/2009. If it was published earlier, its copyright might have lapsed or its copyright might extend longer. If the photographer and his date of death can be determined, then the copyright lasts 70 years past his death, which may have passed or it may be after 1/1/2009. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 05:11, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the photo is in the public domain. This is controlled by the 1976 Copyright Act, which took effect 1/1/1978, and its various amendments to the extent that they took effect at such time to effect the copyright in question. The Copyright Act, as enacted, protected anonymous works like this until the earlier of 75 years from publication or, what matters in this case, 100 years from creation. That 100 years ran out in 1988, so the work went into the public domain on January 1, 1989. in 1998, almost 10 years later, Congress changed this provision to make it 120 years instead of 100, but that did not retroactively resurrect any works that had gone into public domain by expiration of their term. TJRC (talk) 19:44, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Glad to be wrong on this. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 20:21, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What about private life?

No mention other than she had female companians her whole life. did she ever marry? did she ever have a boyfriend? did she ever go on a date? did she die a virgin? incomplete article if you ask me!

• Be WP:BOLD and improve the article with verifiable information that contributes to the whole. In general, dates of marrage, divorce, or widowhood and the names of her husbands, or the fact she never married, are encyclopedic, but boyfriends, girlfriends, or the lack thereof or statements of her sexuality or lack thereof are not important unless they were part of her public life. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 14:08, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Not sure I 100% agree. There are plenty of articles that talk about who the subject was romantically linked to but never married. (IMHO). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.29.216.190 (talk) 12:33, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

According to her New York Times obituary, Keller wanted to marry a Peter Fagan in 1916. From the article:

Miss Keller, then 36, fell in love with Peter Fagan, a 29-year-old Socialist and newspaperman who was her temporary secretary. The couple took out a marriage license, intending a secret wedding. But a Boston reporter found out about the license, and his witless article on the romance horrified the stern Mrs. Keller, who ordered Mr. Fagan out of the house and broke up the love affair.

"The love which had come, unseen and unexpected, departed with tempest on his wings," Miss Keller wrote in sadness, adding that the love remained with her as "a little island of joy surrounded by dark waters."

For years her spinsterhood was a chief disappointment. "If I could see," she said bitterly, "I would marry first of all."

This was in a darker era, when blindness and dependency could bring an adult under control of another. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 20:17, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

this is a great website to find info about helen keller —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.237.17.6 (talk) 21:03, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] How?

Alright, from what I understand she was born neither deaf nor blind. So how was she able to communicate in a later stage in her life if she had not developed the basic communication skills required by children in order to learn? None of us remember much from the time we were one to five years of age, if anything, so how was she able to communicate without the basic knowledge of speech and sight? I am having trouble understanding this because to learn, one needs to be able to hear or to see to be able to learn basic communication skills. Even if it is brail or if it is sign language, we all need some kind of basic knowledge to build off of it, so how did she do this?

This is a serious question, and I am not trying to offend anyone I just need clarification about this subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.63.153.19 (talk) 19:06, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be asking for the answer to a philosophical question. This is a biographical article. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 20:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)