Talk:Harry Potter influences and analogues

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Article milestones Date Process Result May 10, 2007 Peer review Reviewed July 25, 2007 Good article nominee Listed Current Status: Good article

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Contents 1 The Attic 2 Groosham Grange 3 "public accusations" 3.1 Harry Potter and Star Wars: A New Hope 4 On the worst witch 5 Macbeth 6 This article needs a better title 6.1 Proposed move straw poll 7 Pratchett para is now in the Attic and now back in the article 8 Revisiting the title 9 Fair use 10 The Bible 11 GAN Comments on Harry Potter influences and analogues 12 analogue vs. analogy 13 Spellcasting 101: Sorcerers Get All The Girls 14 Chaucer influences 15 Roddy Doyle 16 JK's reading list for kids 17 I removed the Bible 18 Give me a minute to check this 18.1 In the Penal Colony 19 The holy grail for this article... 20 J.K. Rowling Opens Up About Books' Christian Imagery 21 The lead needs to be expanded

[edit] The Attic

Enter the Attic

This is an exceptionally touchy topic, in which the temptation towards original research is overwhelming, so I have established some very strict rules as to what can and cannot go into the main article. Top of the list is uncited material, by which I mean a comparison made without a third party reference that also makes said comparison. If you have a work you wish to include that is uncited, please place it on this subpage, and it may be cited and included in future. Thank you. Serendipodous 13:07, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Groosham Grange

Years ago, I read the children's novel "Groosham Grange" written by Anthony Horowitz and I found it rather similar to Harry Potter. "Groosham Grange" was published in 1988 by Methuen (Check out: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0416024629/026-7434006-7294052?v=glance&n=266239) and 1995 by Walker Books. I wonder if this qualifies as a work analogous to Harry Potter. Doberdog 13:15, 16 July 2006 (UTC)Doberdog

I added it to the article before I read your comment. The book is another "oft mentioned" and definitely belongs here. I haven't read it myself so I can't elaborate.--woggly 07:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "public accusations"

The only one who ever actually brought a court case against Rowling was Nancy Stouffer. As Neil Gaiman explicitly denies ever having considered suing Rowling, and details the source of the misunderstanding (an overzealous reporter from "The Scotsman"), I don't think this belongs in the same category. If someone complaining on a webpage, or even an article in a paper, count as "public rumors of plagiarism", then a lot more of these authors qualify. For example, the old rumour that Jill Murphy brought legal action against Rowling, which is still up on IMDB: [1]. A pity IMDB has not seen fit to remove the rumour, though it is without foundation, as I have pointed out to them in a letter in the past. --woggly 07:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Do you know where I could find an authorative source that sates that Murphy did not consider suing Rowling? Because I've been scouring the web for weeks and haven't found one. THanks Serendipodous 14:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Harry Potter and Star Wars: A New Hope

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o246/admiralnelsonscreenies/HPSW.jpg

Thoughts? "Legitimate" enough for conclusion? I don't think its points can be denied, although it isn't any "official" source.

Not really; there's no indication of who wrote that comparison- it might just be someone's original research. Plus, Lucas borrowed the plot for "Star Wars" from Joseph Campbell's "Hero With A Thousand Faces", the whole point of which was that mythic quest tales all have the same plot. If you read "The Lord of the Rings," you'll find just as many concordances with Star Wars. More, in truth. Serendipodous 09:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] On the worst witch

It is not so much of an analogue as the expected result of a simmilar idea. I mean, the teacher's pet being the main characters nemesis is seen in a number of school based dramas, and the idea of having a school where people learn to use magic is not that much of a basic story structure, and the classes taken would almost certainly be simmilar, as those are the sorts of things that one would expect a school of magic to teach. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.1.167 (talk • contribs)

Agreed, but this article isn't really about whether Rowling did or did not rip off books X or Y, it's about what the sources tell us. If I could find a source which says what you just did, I'd insert it in a second. Serendipodous 20:55, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Macbeth

Rowling admires the bard and Macbeth has ghosts, castles, and a prophecy that should have been ignored. The weird sisters, a rock band in Harry Potter, is a reference to the witches in Macbeth. Libertycookies 16:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

OK; two mentions on Accio Quote. Serendipodous 17:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This article needs a better title

Any ideas? Serendipodous 14:03, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Replace "analogous to" with "similar to." This use of "analogous to," while correct, is quite rare, and like far too much of the enwiki, is in place of an easily-understood alternative. BenB4 08:43, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed move straw poll

Agree or disagree with move to Works similar to Harry Potter?

• Agree as proposer. BenB4 08:43, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
• Agree I'll go with that; creates a nice lead in to the opening sentence. Serendipodous 08:49, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pratchett para is now in the Attic and now back in the article

The new addition, which was very well sourced and well stated, actually highlighted the fact that the Pratchett paragraph doesn't compare his books to Harry Potter. There might be somewhere on Wikipedia to discuss their "rivalry," but it's not here. There has to be something that compares their works, but I haven't found it yet. Anyway, to the anonymous user who unwittingly pointed this out, thanks. Serendipodous 19:59, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

and back in it goes; I found a citation. Serendipodous 12:05, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Revisiting the title

"Works similar to Harry Potter" is a very subjective title. Given the content of the article, I think something like "Influences on Harry Potter" might be appropriate.-Wafulz 17:49, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Done. Also expanded "Influences" section to balance article's POV and accomodate new emphasis. Serendipodous 09:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use

I am not sure that the use of book covers to illustrate this article is compliant with WP:FAIR. Unless a Fair use can be declared for these book covers, in this article, the book covers will be removed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't really understand the whole fair use thing, but all the images are of books that are explicitly mentioned in the article. 16:51, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

OK. Read fair use policy. Removed most of them. Kept the following:

• Books of Magic: shows physical similarity between Tim Hunter and Harry Potter
• Sword in the Stone: Wizard, young boy, owl. Could be a Harry Potter image
• Wizard's Hall: for its superficial Harry Potter similarities. Serendipodous 17:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I am afraid that these also need to go. The fair use policy means that we can only use non-free images (which book covers are) in the article that discuss the book itself. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Well that's fairly crap. The first thing that automated peer review is going to complain about is that the article has no images. Serendipodous 19:33, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Some articles do not have images and will never have. This being a spinoff article of Harry Potter, I do not see what the problem would be. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:09, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Serendipodous, I see that you have put a lot of work on the Harry Potter series of articles, and we may be violating fair use also in Harry Potter parodies, Legal disputes over the Harry Potter series. I do not want to ruin your day with image deletions, so I would encourage to place {{fairusereview}} to these images so that editors familiar with fair use policy can take a look. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I've merged "Nancy Stouffer" and "The Legend of Rah and the Muggles" with "legal disputes...", since they're only important as regards their relation to Harry Potter. Hence, Legal disputes is now the only page that mentions that particular book. Serendipodous 10:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Bible

Although the Bible itself may be inspired by prior myths and fables, Rowling has said that she is glad no one has questioned her too thoroughly on her faith. "Every time I've been asked if I believe in God, I've said yes, because I do, but no one ever really has gone any more deeply into it than that, and I have to say that does suit me, because if I talk too freely about that I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." 'You can lead a fool to a book but you can't make them think'. Vancouver Sun (2000-10-26).

• • • This part is probably OR and definately a spoiler if you haven't finished Book 7**

In Book 7, Harry willingly gives his own life to save his friends and the world, is killed by Voldemort, goes to a place called King's Cross and then returns to life. Harry, as well as those who support him are all tortured by a spell Crucio, that sounds similar to crucification. 70.137.148.86 00:46, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

There is a lot of potential in discussing the influence not just of the Bible but of all mythologies from across the globe. However, it would probably need its own article, and we would need to gather together a huge number of reliable secondary sources. Simply making the comparisons you did isn't enough since, as you said, it is OR. Serendipodous 05:58, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GAN Comments on Harry Potter influences and analogues

Hi Serendipodous, Someone has removed the partial review tag from the GAC nomination. I have been working on the review for a few hours now, but I find that I cant find out anything to point out. Short of asking you to reconsider the images, everything seems OK! Im at a loss because to date I have reviewed five articles with pretty much lots of nitpicking (?) :-) but first review where I find I have nothing to say. Here is how it fares -

1. Well Written - Yes.
2. Factually accurate & verifiable - Absolutely. You are very exacting in this aspect.
3. Broad in its coverage - Yes. I have paged the history, peer review and googled a bit. I could not come across any new issues which met your high selection standards and that you had not considered in your history of development of the article!.
4. Neutral - Yes. I have seen your keeping factoids out till you had references and then you bunged them in!
5. Stable - Yes. Good work on keeping cruft out.
6. Images have acceptable copyright status - Not applicable. Personally I think you have a really good case for 'fair use'.

Based on what I have seen, I think its absolutely fine for the intermediate quality standards of GA. You would need peer review to improve en route to FA. So I am passing your article outright. Congratulations. You have a GA on your hand!

Regards,AshLin 13:33, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] analogue vs. analogy

Apologies for hijacking this discussion section, I'm unfamiliar with how to use it correctly. The word in the article title should be ANALOGIES, rather than analogues. Illiteracy pains me. Thank you.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.226.1.194 (talk • contribs)

No. An analogy is a comparison between two different things. An analogue is something that bears comparison to something else. Serendipodous 15:48, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spellcasting 101: Sorcerers Get All The Girls

I removed this as unsourced (unlike all the other examples). It also fails to make any claim that anyone has noted this similarity, or that there is any possibility at all the Rowling was aware of this game. Skittle 21:53, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Moved section to The Attic. Serendipodous 21:55, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chaucer influences

JKR recently acknowledged that Chaucer may have influenced the tale of the three Deathly Hallows. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 21:59, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Damn. Now I have to read "The Pardoner's Tale" and the only copy I have is in Middle English. It's a shame she didn't say why; any parallels I draw will be OR. Serendipodous 22:06, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I know, I would have added it to the article myself except I didn't know what else to say except what I wrote above… :) --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 22:19, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, we'd probably need a published source to say more than what she said, but it's pretty obvious that it's to do with three men seeking Death (personified), and greed leading to death and destruction! I'm sure if we wait a few days, someone will say that in print or web form. Skittle 22:43, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, added source. It was literally the ONLY source on the internet that dealt with this, but it dealt with it well. Unfortunately there is no indication as to who wrote it, or for whom. Still, information is information. Serendi^podous 18:47, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Roddy Doyle

It has been alleged that Rowling's first husband was abusive which is the subject of Rowling's favorite Doyle book The woman who walked into doors. Can we make the connection or is it OR? Libertycookies 19:57, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

It would be total OR and rather intrusive to boot. Serendi^podous 15:44, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] JK's reading list for kids

While she doesn't explain any influences on her work, this might be worthy of inclusion somewhere, since the books she selects would continue to influence children beyond her own series. Note the list has some overtly political books, and books that focus on racism and class themes. Libertycookies 13:31, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2006/0131-guardian-higgins.html

JK Rowling Author of the Harry Potter series

Wuthering Heights Emily Brontë

Charlie and the Chocolate Factory Roald Dahl

Robinson Crusoe Daniel Defoe

David Copperfield Charles Dickens

Hamlet William Shakespeare

To Kill a Mockingbird Harper Lee

Animal Farm George Orwell

The Tale of Two Bad Mice Beatrix Potter

The Catcher in the Rye JD Salinger

Catch-22 Joseph Heller

They can go into the "Other favourites" section. Serendi^podous 15:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I removed the Bible

Rowling may cite the Bible as an influence, but she hasn't said why or how, and until she does than the Bible, like the Canturbury Tales, has to stay on the back burner. Eventually, I hope, she will, and when she does the Bible can go back in. Otherwise it's just OR. Other critic's opinions might be valid, but you'd need a fair few to ensure lack of bias, and really that would be another article in its own right. Serendi^podous 15:46, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

EDIT: OK, I've included a section on Biblical influences that consists of a shortened version of the section in "Religious debates..." Much of the material on Satanism and the Christian right has been removed, since it is irrellevant. Serendi^podous 17:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Give me a minute to check this

It's not an influence, because Rowling hasn't referred to it, but it might be an analogue.

[edit] In the Penal Colony

A reviewer in The Guardian notes the similarity of Umbridge's punishments to Kafka's In the Penal Colony, a story about the last use of an elaborate torture and execution device that carves the sentence of the man on his skin in a flowery script before letting him die, all in the course of twelve hours.

OK, I just read the source. It's not notable enough for inclusion, mainly because it amounts to maybe twenty words in a 1000-word piece, but also because the reference does not make explicit which torture is being referred to, and thus any such conclusions are OR. Given the nature of this article's topic, OR should be avoided at all costs.Serendi^podous 14:09, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The holy grail for this article...

would be a quote from Jill Murphy about JK Rowling or Harry Potter. If there is anyone anywhere who knows where one is, please help us find it. Thanks! Serendi^podous 17:46, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

"...A letter to the Daily Mail in 2001 asked ‘How much does the Harry Potter phenomenon owe to Jill Murphy’s Worst Witch series?’ and talking to Jill, it’s clear that she looks back longingly to the days when she wasn’t constantly having to field questions concerning her reactions to the fact that Hogwarts is something of a rival establishment.

‘It’s irritating … everyone asks the same question and I even get children writing to ask me whether I mind about the Hogwarts school of witchcraft and pointing out similarities. Even worse are reviewers who come across my books, or see the TV series, and, without taking the trouble to find out that it’s now over quarter of a century since I wrote my first book, make pointed remarks about “clever timing” – or say things like “the Worst Witch stories are not a million miles from J K Rowling’s books”. The implications are really quite insulting!"

http://www.booksforkeeps.co.uk/issues/136/350

There you go. Libertycookies 21:46, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. How did you find it? Serendi^podous 06:50, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Just used Google and some sorting of the chaff. Glad it fit the bill. Libertycookies 14:08, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] J.K. Rowling Opens Up About Books' Christian Imagery

More stuff for the Bible as influence. Libertycookies 23:36, 17 October 2007 (UTC) http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1572107/20071017/index.jhtml

[edit] The lead needs to be expanded

Recent additions have shortened the lead and lengthened the article, so the lead needs to expand. Any ideas? Serendi^podous 07:05, 20 October 2007 (UTC)