Talk:Gregory Pakourianos

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[edit] Question

Why is he described Georgian politician in Byzantine service of Armenian descent? Isn't he Byzantine politician of Georgian and Armenian descent (since he did all those things described in the article in Byzantine service and not in Georgian or Armenian one)? I'm obviously not an expert but I fail to see logic in the current intro. Alæxis_¿question? 06:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

He was a Byzantine politician but was also considered a vassal to King George II of Georgia during his service in Theodosiopolis (modern Kars; George himself was granted the Byzantine title of Caesaros and hence was superior to all Byzantine commanders in the empire's eastern provinces). Most importantly, he was a major contributor to the Georgian Orthodox culture. He founded the Bachkovo Monastery in Bulgaria which was neither Greek nor Armenian, but Georgian. Religion and culture was the most important determinants of the person's identity in the Middle Ages, much more important than ethnicity (indeed, an anachronistic term). --Kober^Talk 06:30, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I see. Add this info to the article then. Alæxis_¿question? 06:40, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Ethnicity is not same as religion, there are 2 sources on his Armenian ethnicity. There are aremenians adhering to different branches of christianity. Hetoum I 07:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Since we've got a ref calling him Armeno-Georgian and for the sake of preventing further edit warring let's settle with calling him Armenian-Georgian politician.

Btw, why do you think that he's best known for founding the Bachkovo monastery? Alæxis_¿question? 10:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Alex, please don't engage in a useless discussion about the subject of which you have only a remote knowledge. Your interest in this article comes solely from your prejudice towards Georgia and personal grudges towards Georgian users. I removed the Armenian spelling because there is not a single contemporary document spelling his name in Armenian (I'm leaving it for the time being though). Why I think that he's best known for founding the Bachkovo monastery? Just because the modern scholarship knows him for his famous typicon [1] for that monastery. The Byzantine Empire had many generals, but not all of them are equally well-known. Gregory indeed came from the region where Georgians and Armenians lived together and there was a vigorous cultural dialogue between the two communities. Whatever Gregory's ethnic background, he was Georgian in his culture and religion. That's why he was so zealous in patronizing Georgian monasteries (e.g., the famous Iviron on Mount Athos) throughout the Byzantine possessions. Since this is a very specific issue in the history of medieval Georgia and Byzantium, I cannot condemn your ignorance, but I do object to your excessive boldness in reverting my edits. Btw, I think the current masters of Bachkovo know better than us who bult the most famous monastery in their country: "The monastery was founded in 1083 by the Byzantine military commander of Georgian origin, Grigorii Bakuriani and his brother Abazii." [2]. --Kober^Talk 11:05, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Please don't engage in personal attacks. One could as well accuse you and Luis of having prejudice towards Armenia since you deleted the word Armenian in the article at least three times. ::: Btw there are some interesting facts about the ethnicity (or whatever) of Bakurianos in the Bulgarian-language article about him. Alæxis_¿question? 12:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't have any prejudice against Armenia and I have forged quite a prolific cooperation with the Armenian users. I have not deleted the word Armenian, but reworded the statement. You'd better check the history of the edits. It is simply ridiculous to see how you are trying to recapitulate Moscow's traditional policy of creating an anmosity between Georgians and Armenians. This is not the first example of how Russian users (I won't speficy them) in Wikipedia try to use even a minor disagreement between Armenian and Georgian colleagues for their own purposes.--Kober^Talk 12:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Sure, that's one of our favourite tactics )).

However, as far as I know Luis is not Georgian and he removed the word Armenian two times not replacing it with anything. I especially like this edit summary considering that I found the description of Bakurianos I cited in the very first book on Byzantine I took from my shelf. I suppose he'll answer himself if he wants to so there's not much point in continuing this conversation. Alæxis_¿question? 18:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Why? I really enjoy your nascent interest in medieval Caucasian nobility.:) Quite a surprising shift of your focus to something that is not related to the panegyrics of good old guys like Ardzinba and Kokoity. --Kober^Talk 18:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, it may not be evident from my contributions but I'm rather interested in Byzantine and (to a lesser degree) Armenian history. Alæxis_¿question? 12:56, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I see no constructive use of removal or manipulation of cited verifiable quotes. Thank you for additional reference dear Alaexis.Hetoum I 20:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I updated the details of his death with reference to the notes from DBM army list book 4 list 1 ( page 5). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.243.45.71 (talk) 23:52, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Respect the rules

Kober, please give citation. Wikipedia isn't a place for promoting your personal ideas and beliefs. Readers need to know what the source of your information is. For example: "He was a son of Bakuri." (author, page).

Also, where is the other opinion that his name is Aluz? Why did you destroy my sitation given for this name? Karim Ali

It is not my personal idea and belief that many Byzantine dynastic names were derived from patrimonial names. Furthermore, both Georgian and Armenian annals call him Bakurianis-dze and Bakurian, respectively, indicating the name of his father. Anyway, I decided to remove his father's name at all to avoid further controversies over such a minor issue and to keep your nerves healthy. --Kober^Talk 05:21, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

The Armenian Russian historian V. A. Arutiunova – Fidanian in her doctoral dissertation, which is а published book in Russian (Типик Григория Пакуриана, 1978, 34-43), after analyzing different opinions about the name of Gregory Pakourianos’s father comes to the conclusion that his father’s name is Aluz and his grandfather’s name is Pakourian. Also, in this book you can find the family tree of Pakourianos according different authors. Karim Ali, July 2007

Kober, why are you giving wrong information? For example:"... he served in Georgia, Armenia, and Syria". The correct is:

He "... spent a very long time traveling in Armenia and Georgia and Syria and visiting Roman Empire..." (Typicon, Chapter Eighteen). Karim Ali, July 2007.

Please don't accuse me of giving wrong info and stop disrupting the well-balanced article. He was not a traveler but a Byzantine military officer in the Byzantine-controlled Georgian, Armenian, and Syrian lands. "Visiting Roman Empire"? This is ridiculous at best. He served in the Roman Empire throughout his life. According to you (or certain Arutiunova – Fidanian), it appears that he only traveled in Georgia, Armenia, and Syria and sometimes visited the empire. So, where did he live and serve? On the Mars? --Kober^Talk 03:54, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Kober, thank you for your corrections. Could we also get rid of the following repetition: “He is … the founder of the then-Georgian Orthodox Bachkovo Monastery …” “… he founded the Georgian Orthodox monastery of Petritzos …” Karim Ali, August 2007.

Karim, with all due respect, I cannot agree that this particular passage is redundancy. WP:LEAD says: "The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, summarizing the most important points, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describing its notable controversies, if there are any." --Kober^Talk 04:26, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

But where is the alternate view for the monastery being named anything other than “Georgian”? Can you summarize the article from a neutral point of view? Karim Ali, August 2007

alternate view? Which one? All sources, including Bulgarian ones, say it was a Georgian monastery. The fact that one Armenian scholar wrote something in his dissertation cannot be regarded as a valid alternative view. Could find any other third-party sources claiming the same? --Kober^Talk 04:49, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

The Greek historian C. Asdracha who is using many different sources, including Bulgarian, in her published doctoral dissertation, remarks that we can’t look at the Iberians in the monastery as an ethnic group. She named the monastery - “the Monastery of Bachkovo” (Asdracha, 74-75).

The above opinion is also confirmed by the Russian Armenian historian V. A. Arutiunova – Fidanian who states that the word “Iberian” in 11 century can have different meanings (Фиданян, 134).

• Asdracha, Catherine. A région des Rhodopes aux XIIIe et XIVe siècles: étude de géographie historique. Athen: Verlag der “Byzantinisch-Neugriechischen Jahrbücher”, 1976.

• Арутюновой – Фиданян, В. А. Типик Григория Пакуриана. Введение, перевод и комментарий. Ереван, 1978. - Karim Ali, August 2007.

So what? I agree that "Iberian" can not always have an ethnic meaning, but the "Georgian Orthodox" is not an ethnic term either. It is a confessional name. Most scholars, including Arutiunova–Fidanian, agree that those Armenians and other non-Georgians who were referred to as "Iberians" actually adhered to the Georgian version of Eastern Orthodox Christianity. That's why the Byzantines extended the term "Iberian" to them. Hence, I cannot see what is controversial about describing Bachkovo as a Georgian Orthodox monastery. Again, it is a denominational, not an ethnic term.--Kober^Talk 04:52, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

This connection between Armenian-Iberian and Georgian Eastern Orthodox Christians must be included in the article because now it seems a little strange that Pakourianos founded Georgian Orthodox monasteries. Karim Ali, August 2007.