Talk:Greater Liverpool

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[edit] New article, proposed deletion or merger

Article has only just been set up today (9th June) and I have created an informative page. However there is room for improvement and this should have been considered before deletion request, that the article has only just been set up and further substance shall be added. Dmcm2008 (talk) 22:03, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with the content, it's the term 'Greater Liverpool' which has no status legally or otherwise. The aritcle is just WP:OR. ^┌_Joshii^┐_└^chat_┘ 22:09, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I share the concerns of Joshii. Without citation, there's little hope of keeping this article. --Jza84 |  Talk  22:17, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

As Joshii said, you need to demonstrate with appropriate reliable sources that someone other than yourself has ever used the term "Greater Liverpool".--Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:19, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree there is no need for this article, and it is highly POV (and not very well written as it stands). But there is a valid case that a statement along the lines that the boundaries of the contiguous built-up area extend beyond the Liverpool City Council boundaries should be included here, for example. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:28, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

...or even better, that some of the statements, if they can be justified, are included in this article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:30, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

We also have Greater Merseyside and Liverpool City Region too! Easily a candidate for a merger at best, I'm sure. --Jza84 |  Talk  22:31, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I am no expert, so if you wish to quote WP rules go ahead, make my day. I hope it is recognised what the page was, and the effort I put in to it. It seems a might unfair to dismiss the article as soon as it has begun. It does have merits but it takes time to build an article. I would like to suggest it is NOT merged with Liverpool urban area as that page includes areas outside what I would consider Greater Liverpool (ie St Helens). I am not seeking to offend anyone, however please give me a chance Dmcm2008 (talk) 22:43, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but what you consider to be the case is not a valid reason for a new article, unless it is justified by external sources. In this case it seems highly unlikely that a case exists for an article sufficiently different from those existing already. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:48, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

The only way to save this article from deletion is to produce some evidence that the term "Greater Liverpool" is not one invented by you. Just provide a reliable source and it'll likely stay. It's not to do with "WP rules"; it's to do with common sense. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 23:11, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Malleus Fatuarum for your kind comment, as long as people do not rush to remove my page in the next 24 hours I shall find reliable sources. It is puzzling to me that I cannot put across to people (as I am a scouser) that St Helens is not part of a Greater Liverpool because St Helens is of a different dialect, a rugby league town. Greater Liverpool also is not the same as Greater Merseyside/ City Region as they are based on 6 boroughs working together including St Helens and Halton. Hardly along the lines that I made in the page. Dmcm2008 (talk) 00:34, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

But please bear in mind this, and please take into account that Wikipedia exists for the benefit of its readers, not its writers. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:48, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I am told not to enter into personal attacks. I view that as a personal attack. For some reason you take offence to this article. The information is self explanitory, I just need some references. Dmcm2008 (talk) 09:14, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that was precluded in our WP:NPA policy Dmcm2008, I think it's a fair comment. Try to look at this differently - imagine, I say, "Greater Liverpool" is an "official term" and is the same as Greater Merseyside, and that Knowsley and Sefton really want to be part of it, WITHOUT ANY SOURCES. How would YOU go about verifying that the material is true and I'm not lying, or misunderstanding something? Do you understand our concern that the current page is totally point-of-view, as it does not prove it's real-world practice to us. As Ghmyrtle points out, Wikipedia really does exist for the benefit of its readers, not its writers - writing articles based on personal experience is forbidden. --Jza84 |  Talk  10:27, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes I do understand your concern to a degree, Ghmyrtle has suggested that the page I have done contains original research which I had a look at but I don't get. Having said that I am not trying to force my opinions on to Wikipedia. There a number of these terms as you have previously commented on, for me to suggest 'greater Liverpool' is to inform and identify the modern-day concept of what is, what makes Liverpool, it's cuture and it's people and also to distinguish between these other terms which are a based on a broader slice of the region and are to do with things like economy and tourism. I've noted the opposition and while I would like to say I have references to back up my claim I do not have too many references and what I have may not be enough. I have also noted the request to merge with the Liverpool Urban Area. The difference is the Liverpool Urban Area page includes St Helens and Haydock based on the ONS but St Helens and Haydock are more Lancashire towns and even their dialect is different it is not Scouse. I have asked the ONS to explain why they include St Helens and Haydock and also why they do not include other areas like Maghull and Kirkby for example. I know from past experience there will be those that will argue all of these places are separate towns in their own right and I do not disagree. But their is close link to the city of Liverpool which is not quite the same for St Helens. When Liverpool expanded 150, 100 years ago it expanded in to neighbouring towns. I am not saying the city should expand again but their is a 'greater Liverpool' area that passes the city council's existing boundaries.Dmcm2008 (talk) 10:53, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

What you are suggesting seems to me to be a view that the Liverpool Urban Area is poorly defined, in that it includes some places which are not well linked culturally with Liverpool, and excludes some that are. Three points on that. Firstly, that is your opinion, and we haven't seen any evidence that it is a shared view (though it may very well be). Secondly, my understanding is that the ONS definition (rightly or wrongly) doesn't take cultural factors (like accents) into account - it's mainly based on the physical coalescence of built-up areas, possibly (it's a long time since I worked on it so I can't remember) also on travel to work statistics. Thirdly, even if your view is shown to be a shared view, and even if the criteria for deciding the extent of "greater Liverpool" or whatever term you wish to use are "wrong", it still doesn't justify the existence of a new article, rather a case for amending an existing one. And, having reconsidered this a bit, it does seem to me that "Greater Liverpool" could well be a clearer title for an article encompassing all these considerations than "Liverpool Urban Area" - but it does need to contain all the info now in the "Liverpool Urban Area" article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:32, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I Googled the term. It seems to be in unofficial use here and there, and this contains some interesting comments (one man includes Winsford and Wrexham!); but this map from Macclesfield Councilthe Borough of Macclesfield website is intriguing. Unfortunately it only goes as far north as Huyton (approx), but the term is being used in respect of a specified area. I can't investigate further now as lunchtime is over, but I thought it may be useful to throw it into the mix and see if any similar, more definitive sources can be found. Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 12:53, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Following on from this search, I found this which shows that the term 'Greater Liverpool' is used to refer to a 'Broad Rental Market Areas (BRMA)', which is what the Macclesfield map is referring to. Paypwip (talk) 13:07, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, found a map showing further north than Hassocks5489's map. I can't link directly, but have a look here, select 'Liverpool' as the Local Authority and hit LA Search - then hit the 'Map' button at the bottom to give you a pdf map. Paypwip (talk) 13:22, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. The definition of a BRMA is here, and if you do a search for the Wirral one it includes Neston but excludes Ellesmere Port. Not too sure what it proves, as different bodies will use a variety of different definitions for different purposes, though it's certainly worth mentioning. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:47, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I am watching with interest. I agree a lot with the reply from Ghmyrtle, you may be right to anchor things under the Liverpool Urban Area but i'd still dispute the ONS version and I have already asked them about that. I will add some references that I have found for perusal. A map example from Merseytravel Saveaway [[1]] see map. Knowsley is half connected to St Helens for which they too have links (ie.St Helens & Knowsley NHS Trust) and Sefton is split into north and south (the south being Liverpool end). Wirral remains seperate. Other sources include Port of Liverpool map which puts Bootle and Seaforth under their banner (PoL) although this map includes Birkenhead docks. While similarly National Museums Liverpool changed their name from N.M.Merseyside. Aintree Racecourse (in Sefton) call themselves Liverpool while the Grand National is either called Aintree or Liverpool take your pick. A Mayor for Liverpool website holds view of other people such as myself (although I am not talking about an elected mayor here) Dmcm2008 (talk) 15:09, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what your point is about those links you've provided: none of them make any reference to a "Greater Liverpool". --RFBailey (talk) 21:50, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

A map showing the ONS definition of the "urban area" is here. The way the ONS justify their approach to definition, from this, is as follows - "...the definition of an urban area is an extent of at least 20 hectares and at least 1,500 residents at the time of the 2001 Census. The starting point is the identification by OS (Ordnance Survey) of areas with land use which is irreversibly urban in character. This comprises permanent structures and the land on which they are situated, including land enclosed by or closely associated with such structures; transportation corridors such as roads, railways and canals which have built up land on one or both sides, or which link built-up sites which are less than 200 metres apart; transportation features such as airports and operational airfields, railway yards, motorway service areas and car parks; mine buildings, excluding mineral workings and quarries; and any area completely surrounded by builtup sites. Areas such as playing fields and golf courses are excluded unless completely surrounded by builtup sites. The prerequisite for the recognition of an urban area is that the area of urban land should extend for 20 hectares or more. Separate areas of urban land are linked if less than 200 metres apart. Land between built-up areas is not regarded as urban unless it satisfies one of the conditions listed above." Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:44, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

For comparison, it might be useful to look at this article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:49, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

The links I have added are not all to do with 'Greater Liverpool'. It is to say that not everyone thinks in the way some of you Wikipedians about this. That you can be brought under the Liverpool banner even if you are not in the city. The Port of Liverpool one example, the National Museums Merseyside was rebranded to Liverpool even though it contains locations in the Wirral. Even the existing ONS include St Helens under the Liverpool banner. Not that I agree with that one. But where I am coming from is that the modern Liverpool area includes Knowsley and South Sefton although there is no current arrangement to show this. The pdf map above is bang onDmcm2008 (talk) 22:53, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

In which case, why are you telling us about them? If you want there to be a page entitled "Greater Liverpool", you need to demonstrate that it's a term that is actually in use. The link to the Housing Benefit areas is a suitable example. The other stuff (Port of Liverpool, museums, Merseytravel, etc.) does not demonstrate anything to do with some "Greater Liverpool" construct. --RFBailey (talk) 03:55, 12 June 2008 (UTC)