Talk:Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri
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[edit] Requested Move
Highest clery is named with their titles on Wikipedia, similar like Pope Benedict XVI, who is not listed as Benedict XVI. This is similar to Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani as well. Gryffindor 22:59, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
- Support, as per Gryffindor. Stefán Ingi 13:44, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose. Unlike popes with only one at a time (or sometimes two claimants to one title), there are multiple "Grand Ayatollahs". Gene Nygaard 17:18, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
- yes so what? all the cardinals are also listed with their clerical title. Gryffindor 18:29, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
- Agree--Sina 22:59, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
- Support.
ナイトスタリオン ✉ 23:01, 13 December 2005 (UTC) - Support. Pollux_nt
- Oppose. in shiite there are four stages to become a Grand Ayatullah, first is Sheykh, second is Seghat Ul-Islam, third is Hojjat Ul-Islam, and the fourth one is Ayatullah (means sign of the God in english), and after passing these four levels, one can either carry on to become Grand Ayatullah, or stop and do whatever he wanna do. therefore there might be many Grand Ayatullahs at the same time, while muslim people have to choose one of those Grand Ayatullahs as their Marja-i-Taqlid (the source of immitaion), and as far as I know even if there are 200 Grand Ayatullahs living at the same time, which is very rarely to happen, only 2 or 3 of them become the popular ones and be followed by herd of muslims. Sina 17:43, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose. "Hossein Montazeri" is enough. "Grand Ayatollah" shouldn't be part of the title; it should prefix the name at the start of the article.--Patchouli 15:38, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Result
Moved. WhiteNight T | @ | C 06:04, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] SouthernComfort, mind telling me why the accuracy tag is placed?
Why is it placed?--ĶĩřβȳŤįɱéØ 04:40, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
- The accuracy tag was placed due to a dispute regarding whether or not Khomeini personally designated Montazari to be his successor, as well as regarding the issue of what Montazeri's views are concerning the Islamic Republic and the institution of velayat-e-faqih. You can review the edit history for more information, if you'd like. SouthernComfort 16:18, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] His Following in Iran
Re: He retains a large following amongst religious Shi'a Muslims in Iran. Is that true? How large a group? If he had a large group of followers how come they did nothing to release him from the house arrest of 1997-2003? Does it make sense?
Who is http://www.irvl.net? Who is Frederick Nemani? What are their credentials? Come on guys, you call this research? Where is the original document? Let's not forget the rules of Wiki!
PS1: He was known as Gorbeh Nareh (an indecisive cartoon character!) in Iran!
PS2: [4] http://www.amontazeri.com/Farsi/Payamha/87.HTM This domain is parked, pending renewal, or has expired. Kiumars
- They did. I had one relative in Iran who was jailed without trial and tortured for supporting Montazeri. His supporters will never dare to do it openly. Those that did dare joined history and the government-run media in Iran is not going to report it.--Patchouli 15:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Patchouli can you prove that what you say about your relative is true? Anyone can claim that one of his relatives done this and done that! I used to live in Esfahan and I happen to know Montazeri very well and am well aware of his popularity in Najaf-Abad and Esfahan before and after revolution! Kiumars 15:16, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
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- This is exactly why there is no freedom of the press in Iran. This way not everything about history can be recorded or proved.--Patchouli 03:35, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
- This is not Asghar Agha news paper! This is wikipedia and you must have supporting documents for what you say! History is not like mathematics, history is subjective and depends on the angle one looks at it, ten different people may have 10 different views about an incident! Which one is right? Who can decide that? The best way of documenting the history is to record all the events and different views (with supporting documents) and let people decide for themselves. Kiumars
I replaced the disputed "following" statement with a sourced mention of his "enduring influence." What do you all think about this? The Behnam 08:52, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
- It appears that the causes of the factual dispute tag are no longer present on the page, and many sources have been provided for better statements. I will remove the tag accordingly. The Behnam 06:12, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Why was the Iranian constitution changed to allow non-Grand Ayatollahs to become supreme leader?
Gerash77, this sentence is misleading:
- To deal with the problem caused by having few Grand Ayatollahs eligible to serve as Supreme Leader, an amendment was made to Iran's constitution removing the requirement that the Supreme Leader be a Marja[1][2]
It is an established fact that Khomeini did not have Grand Ayatollah support for velayat-e faqih. The constitution was changed because otherwise no Khomeini-supporter would be elligible to become Supreme Leader.
- Montazeri's removal let the Islamic Republic once more without an heir to Khomeini. And once again the regime faced its great theological problem - none of the grand ayatollahs from which Shia tradition dictated the choice be made agreed with the whole premise of Khomeini's Velayat-e Faqih. Mackey, Sandra, The Iranians (1996), p.353
- .... the vilayat-i faqih thesis was rejected by almost the entire dozen grand ayatollahs living in 1981:
- ""they either openly opposed Khomeini, as did Abu al-Qasim al-Khu'i and Shariat Madari (who died in 1986), or they maintained a discreet distance, refusing official posts, as did Gulpaygani, al-Qummi, al-Shirazi, and al-Najaf al-Mar'ashi.
- Only one grand ayatollah, Muntazari, a former student and designated successor of Khomeini before being rejected in 1989, approved the concept." From The Failure of Political Islam by Olivier Roy, translated by Carol Volk Harvard University Press, 1994, p.173-4 --Leroy65X 23:30, 28 February 2007 (UTC)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Leroy65X (talk • contribs) 18:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC).
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- Golpayegani was the first choice for the leadership, but did not have the sufficient votes.
- I am not sure who those "AL-" people are, but are probably Iraqi.
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- admittedly foreigners are not eligable to become Supreme Leader anyway, but opposition of so many marj does say something about vilayat-i faqih as doctrine --Leroy65X 18:31, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
- Your sources are books in English written by critics. Mine are the exact news, not opinions on the news which contradicts all news! Golpayegani was rejected by the assembly, so was Mousavi Ardebili.
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- was at least part of the reason for this rejection that he failed to embrace vilayat-i faqih? --Leroy65X 18:31, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
- Well I suppose if they say none of the grand ayatollahs supported khomeini's political ideas by definition they are critics. Mackey is very complementary of Khomeini.
- There are many Iranian marjas who agree with velayat MUTLAQEH faqih,
- Were there in 1988-9 though? --Leroy65X 23:30, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
- such as Naser Makarem Shirazi and Fazel Lankarani. I haven't seen any marja who disagrees with velayate faqih. Please cite the marja directly if you find it.
- I'll look --Leroy65X 23:30, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
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--Gerash77 22:38, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
To be honest I don't know these writers, I just assumed they are critics because the information presented are IMO incorrect. I don't know what is the raw source regarding no marjas accepted the velayat theory, but from what I have seen on there website, none have rejected velayat faqih. See: List of marjas --Gerash77 02:30, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Interesting. I just read on wiki Persian[3] that Khamenei has rejected the illimitable velayate faqih. I'll try to find out the speech. --Gerash77 02:37, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I would doubt that any marja would reject VF totally, there is some difference of opinion between ayatollahs about the extent of VF, for example, Mesbah Yazdi is known to be the extreme end, calling for abolishing majlis and elections for one "Islamic state" run by a marja. I couldn't find any marja totally rejecting VF, although I hear from the western sources that they do. Looking at how even the Iraqi government get his "guidance" from Sistani, would tell me that western sources are wrong about the issue.--Gerash77 20:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
- We are talking about the same thing aren't we? Not VF as care of orphans and insane. Not VF as guidance, giving advice on political matters, giving fatawa commanding boycotts. VF as RULE of the country. That's what Roy and other Western writers say the marja either reject or are "maintaining a discreet distance" from. --Leroy65X 15:43, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
It was changed so that Sayyid Khamenei could become the Supreme Leader. Armyrifle 22:17, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Non-English sources
Can somebody who knows what these sources are about make them formal references in the style of those others that I have made for this article as of late? Also check to make sure they support their claims and that they are reliable, as I have no way of doing this easily. Thanks. The Behnam 08:05, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
