Talk:Glass ceiling

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

• Why is "glass cliff" a separate entry? It's derivative of glass ceiling. If that is a separate entry, shouldn't "celluloid ceiling," etc. be too? Yyyikes 01:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)yyyyikes

DicDef, stolen from www.m-w.com. Delete unless expanded -- Chris 73 | Talk 23:46, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

• Keep, rewritten version is good -- Chris 73 | Talk 22:52, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

• Comment: Clearly unacceptable as it stands, with its proud statement of copyviolation. Can't decide if it could become an article. Would any article that would arise essentially be an extended etymology? --bodnotbod 23:52, May 5, 2004 (UTC)
• Move to Wikipedia:Copyright problems -- Cyrius|&#9998 01:01, May 6, 2004 (UTC)
• I fixed it up. Should be a decent stub now. -- VV 02:00, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

• comment: As a new person, I can't help think it's still a dic.def. but now with added links. I think it's a good thing to define, but perhaps the 'glass ceiling' thing should just be a part of the articles you've helpfully linked to? I'll see what others have to say.--bodnotbod 02:56, May 6, 2004 (UTC)

• V's cleanup looks fine. Keep. Alcarillo 02:27, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. We shouldn't create artificial barriers preventing this now fine stub from becoming a full article. TB 08:29, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
• Keep the fixed version. Andris 05:02, May 8, 2004 (UTC)
• Keep the new version. --VTEX 05:26, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
• keep, of course. Does anybody bother trying to edit these articles, or is it just the practice to VfD anytime one's blood pressure increases while reading the encyclopedia?SimBot2 17:49, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
• I found some information on the article in which the term was coined: "Hymowitz, C. & Schellhardt, T.D. The glass-ceiling: Why women can't seem to break the invisible barrier that blocks them from top jobs . The Wall Street Journal, 24 March 1986." The two authors are Carol Hymowitz and Timothy Schellhardt. I've included the full information here in case you want to change the way I've added it to the article Nathan J. Yoder 08:00, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Statistics were copied from 'Feminism' and are now marked as neutrality disputed in that article. I'm not sure if it is a good idea to copy it rather than using the existing link since the any changes will have to be manually added like this.
• I don't see what the dispute is about those statistics. There are some comparability issues, but I don't know of any neutrality issues.(Yyyikes 00:33, 7 August 2006 (UTC))
• I removed the reference to "officially" in the opening sentence, because this is a vague non-reference. I don't think there is an "official" glass ceiling, though the Glass Ceiling Commission came close I suppose.(Yyyikes 00:35, 7 August 2006 (UTC))
• I removed the "worldwide stats," since they were about % of women in parliament, and Glass Ceiling usually refers to management or other occupations, not elected positions (see text in this entry, which doesn't mention elected positions)(Yyyikes 14:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)).
• Speaking of elected positions, let's not forget Nancy Pelosi's political Marble Ceiling. --fiberglassdolphin 23:42, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Definitional adjustment

I don't doubt that the term "glass ceiling" originally applied primarily to women, but the last few times I have heard it, it included other types of discrimination. So I tried to make the first paragraph a lot more general. Revert at will. Uranographer 13:20, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

The term "glass ceiling" was in use by female managers and female engineers at Hewlett-Packard circa 1979. -- Kate

Would it be possible to generalize the definition of "glass ceiling" to make its usage less exclusive to just discrimination against women? I've heard it used in the context of racial discrimination in the workplace as well. So although the historical origins of the word and primary usage may be related to gender, I think a broader definition or at least some mention of other relevant populations that the term applies to would be useful. --Drenched 00:15, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah for my part i've heard this term used in the context of all kinds of discrimination, not just exclusive to women. Walk0nwalls 01:25, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Note the article says "The extension to other groups, such as racial or ethnic minorities, is usually made with direct or indirect reference to gender." Even this is tenuous because there are no references to uses outside of gender. Gender is the reference for this concept, as the original category; others are derivative. Let's see some examples or references before expanding this aspect. Yyyikes 23:36, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Sonny's Blues (short story) published in 1957 (almost 30 years before the Wall Street Journal article) has a reference to the glass ceiling when talking about race. The line is in the 5th paragraph and it says "and their heads bumped abruptly against the low ceiling of their actual possibilities." SMBriscoe

[edit] Keep it

I think that it is fine by itself for now. I don't think that it needs to be changed. swat671

While the term "glass ceiling" can be used towards individuals of ethnic descent as racial discrimination, the term is most widely recognized for its hinderance of women excelling in the business world. In today's society you can see a huge differernce in where women could not get a loan unless there was a male co-signer, to where the market of women owned business is growing 2x faster than any other industry.

I think that this wikipedia article is great because it brings this issue to the attention of everyone however l want to add more information about how this issue is being attacked through lobbying, public policy, women owned firms, and acts such as the HR 5050 of 1980. I would appreciate anyone's help in this matter. I would like to put this information under breaking through the glass ceiling or even start a new heading. Check back within the next few days, hopefully I will have this information up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ginahansen (talk • contribs) 12:45, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism?

Shouldn't the article factor in criticism of the concept, such as statistics supporting the frequent decision by women to focus on family over career, or the biological realities of pregnancy and childbirth that limit the time women dedicate to demanding positions in which they are typically less represented? (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4208/is_19950325/ai_n10190358) "Glass ceiling" requires an unjust external disrcimination against a woman's success, and there is no empirical data presented that the lack of representation is purely a result of discrimination, and can't be explained in other ways. A glass ceiling isn't accepted universally as the cause of gender disparity, so I think the article should reflect that fact. Here, the "choice theory" is represented in the pay gap article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_pay_for_women#The_.22Choice.22_Theory—Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.234.13.190 (talk) 19:08, 26 March 2008 (UTC)