User talk:Giorgos Tzimas

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Hello, Giorgos Tzimas, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question and then place {{helpme}} before the question on your talk page. Again, welcome! --Dr.K. (talk) 15:22, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Parthenon

I did not think there was an official name for them, also, they are not just sculptures, but the blocks removed are integral sections of the architectural structure. In this respect, it is not like removing statues from the alcove of a medieval cathedral, but removing the very entablature. Also, there is doubt over the legality of the permit Elgin received and especially in his interpretation of it. Anywhow, I have no problem with your edits. Politis (talk) 16:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Garni bath mosaic inscription

I made this collage of the writing in the Garni bath. Maybe you can make out the partials. Let me know if it tells you anything new. The resolution is quite high so make sure to enlarge.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 22:21, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I forgot to show you this other inscription discovered at the site regarding the founding of the temple:

.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 15:04, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

This is indeed very interesting, it seems to be a dedicatory building inscription, but the dating of the letters is inconsistent with the dating of the temple. If you look closer you will observe the usage of lunate sigmas -C- and epsilons -E- of cursive omegas -Ω- and mus -M- and a series of spelling mistakes such as ΑΙΚΤΙΣΕΝ [Aiktisen] instead of ΕΚΤΙΣΕΝ [ektisen] ([he] built). All these anomalies are of course attested in the 1st century AD or even earlier but they rarely appear simultaneously in examples from this period (I mean the 1st Century AD). Are you sure this isn't a later copy (3rd century maybe) of an older inscription? This would not be uncommon and in fact there are several similar examples of earlier inscriptions been copied in later periods. If you want I can try and transliterate it although some parts are hardly legible and a part of the text is actually missing. You understand of course that whatever I may tell you is OR and cannot be used in wikipedia. I' ll try to find out if the text has been properly published in any of the mainstream Inscriptionum Corpora and get back to you. Thanks again for your interest--Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 15:48, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

BTW are you sure this has to do with the temple?--Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 17:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I decided to give it a try. Here's what I can make out

1 ήλιος [.Δ..............................]

μεγάλης Αρμενιας ΑΝΑ[-.................]

-]ΩΣ δεσπότης αίκτισεν(sic) ΑΡ[-.....]

βασίλισα, τον ανίκητον ΚΑΘ[-...........]

5 αίτους (sic) ΑΙ [?] της βασιλεί[ας.]

-]MENIEΑΣ υπό εξουσίας ΤΕΙΑΡΙ[.......]

λιτουργός τω μεγάλω θ[εώ?..............]

μετα .MATH..illegible και ευχα[ίς?......]

του μαρτυρίου.....lacuna...............]

Translation

1 Sun [...................................]

of great Armenia ANA[-..................]

-]ΩΣ the overlord built AΡ[-..........]

queen, the invincible ΚΑΘ[-.............]

5 in the [numerical?] regal year[.....]

-]MENIEAΣ under the rule TEIAΡΙ[......]

servant to the great g[οd?..............]

obscure meaning...........................]

of the testimony [lacuna................]

I am not at all sure that this inscription is related to the founding of the temple. There is of course a reference to the Sun and the adjective "invincible" which may refer to the "SOL INVICTUS" the invincible sun, but this designation was also used as a royal title. My transliteration is rather tentative and a bit inconsistent, therefore I can't tell you anything with certainty. The lettering is rather sloppy and it can hardly belong to the dedicatory inscription of the Garni temple, which was very lavishly decorated in high neronian style--Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 17:37, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Here is the translation that appears in an English-language booklet that was sold at the site in the 1990s - "Helios! Trdat the Great, King of Great Armenia, when the ruler built the agarak for the queen and this inaccessible fortress in the 11th year of his reign, Meneus with the ter's permission, being a liturg of the great sparapet, by way of gratitude (purchased) in the presence of witness Matheus". The block was discovered in 1946, out-of-situ in the graveyard of Garni village. The booklet says that the Trdat mentioned is Trdat I, and the 11th year of his reign was 71AD. Meowy 15:48, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

The above translation is by someone named "Trever", no source given. There is another translation in Vrej Nersessian's "Treasures from the Ark" - "The Sun God Trdates, uncontested king of Great Armenia built this temple and the impregnable fortress in the 11th year of his reign, when Mennieay was hazarpet and Amateteay was sparapet". Hazarpet and sparapert are military ranks. Some researchers have dated it to King Trdat III (287-98), but most seem to think it is from the Trdat I period. BTW, the illustration of the inscription is a bit deceptive in that it implies that the left side of the stone is cut close to the inscription - in fact it extends out further to the left and is very worn at that end (so, it could be that letters or words were to the left of those depicted in the drawing. Meowy 16:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Wow! Thanks a lot this makes much more sense. So this can be the dedicatory inscription of either the Garni fortress and the temple or simply of the fortress. The name of Tiridates fits the first line perfectly. I managed to discern only the lower part of a Δ (D) as you can see in my transliteration of the first line but the remaining vestiges of letters could perfectly belong to the name of Tiridates. I have to admit that the letter shape would be more at home in the 3rd rather than 1st century AD, but I am not an expert in Armenian epigraphy and I shouldn't jump to any conclusions. So "The invincible" is actually about the fortress and my interpretation "under the rule" in Greek can also have the meaning of "under permission of". From the translation you provided it is evident that epigraphists have worked out the missing parts in different ways. I will look up Trever and see what I can find. If I dig out anything I will incorporate it in the Garni aticle. Thanks again. You guys are wonderful!--Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 16:24, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Just a note: This seems to be some kind of building block and if the picture is a more or less accurate representation of the actual inscription the lacunae to the left would be inconstistent with the presence of further letters. From the translations you provided the missing text seems to come mainly from the right part, but again this is pure guesswork. I will most certainly look it up!--Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 16:35, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Dear Eupator and Meowy, here's what I found "C. V. Trever gave a report on the temple in Harni fortress, Armenia, and the problem of cul- ture contacts between Rome and Armenia. On the basis of a detailed selection of construction styles and architectural details, and comparing it with numerous buildings of the same type in Asia Minor and Syria, Trever came to the con- clusion that the nearest analogies to this temple were at Sagalassus in Cilicia built by Antoninus Pius and at Niha south of Baalbek. From archi- tectural studies at Harni combined with coins and literary sources Trever concluded that this temple was begun in the year 115 and was related to the declaration of Armenia as a Roman province and the desire to raise the temple for the custody of the statue of Trajan; building, how- ever, was interrupted two years later at the death of Trajan. Trever brought forward the suggestion that the architcture of the Harni temple was not bor- rowed from the Romans. This is confirmed by comparison of the temple at Harni with the con- struction of the Urartu temple at Musasvi, ten centuries earlier, and with a representation on an Assyrian relief of Sargon II at Khorsabad of the ninth century B.C. Both these temples have stylo- bates, six columns on the fagade, and frontals with acroteria. Having established the local roots of the archi- tectural style of the Harni temple, Trever de- fined this monument as Hellenic. In the second part of the report she dwelt in detail on the trans- lation and interpretation of the Greek inscription found during 1945 in the cemetery (cf. Vestnik, 2 [20], 1947, 212-213). Subjecting this inscription to paleographical and philological analyses Trever concluded that the inscription was made in 77 A.D., during the rule of Tiridates. The in- scription is a legal document, testifying that Menneas redeemed part of the walls or tower and, in return, received the right to engrave his name on a place left especially for the making of inscriptions. Such a custom of preparing a place for an inscription beforehand and then writing in the name existed at Ani."

Henry Field and Kathleen Price, "Archaeological News, Russia" in American Journal of Archaeology, Vol. 54, No. 4, (Oct. - Dec., 1950), pp. 427. I think that explains a lot, but I will keep on looking. Thanks and thanks!--Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 17:17, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

And thanks so much for your contributions Giorgos. There is more about the inscription and the Garni temple in the Nersessian book - I'll re-read it and see if anything can be incorporated into the article. The source he gives for the second translation is in Armenian, it's Anais Poghos - "The Greek Inscription of Garni" in the periodical Bazmavep, issue 152, 1994, p111-15. There is a photo of the inscription in a Soviet-period book I've got, and since the photo is from the 1940s it is probably out of copyright so I could scan and upload it to wikipedia. The block bearing this inscription might have been placed by the restorers into the fabric of the reconstructed temple. I'm not 100% sure since it was 14 years ago I visited the site, but I seem to remember an inscription of some sort on the outside at its north-eastern corner (the temple faces east). Meowy 21:25, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

BTW, if you are interested in Greek inscriptions in Armenia, there is one on the 7th-century church at Mastara which I have a photo of. It's not much to look at - just two short lines - but may contain something interesting (don't know if it's ever been translated). I'll upload it, if you want. Meowy 21:40, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not quite as big an inscription as I remembered it to be [[1]] - only two lines composed of maybe only two words. I checked in a book, and it is supposed to be the name of the Sassanid king Peroz, (459-484), which means that it must have come from an earlier building - but the stone doesn't look reused to me.Meowy 01:40, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello dear Eupator, Meowy and Giorgos. Your thoughts and data here contains important research. Do not hide it in this discussion page. I copied the factual translation to the image description Image:Trdatgreek.gif and the academic discussion about its translation to the Image talk:Trdatgreek.gif, where I will also leave a minor comment.--FocalPoint (talk) 07:25, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Giorgo. I agree with your remarks. This is why I copied the text above, which is Original Research as you correctly pointed out, to the discussion section of the image. I believe that your "most certainly flawed" transliteration is not original research, is just factual, this is why I copied it at the main space of the image. --FocalPoint (talk) 19:03, 10 June 2008 (UTC)