Talk:Georgian-Armenian War 1918

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Contents 1 Comment 2 Georgian-Armenian War 1918 3 Arnavoudian quote 4 Recent Changes 5 Sadakhlo, Shulaveri and Andersen 6 WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008

[edit] Comment

Is this the same war that is discussed on article linked here? [1]

This article is not concordant with any sources I have. All the sources I have mentions that the war happened after the Turkish invasion of Gyumri(Alxendripole), and from it Javakh was taken away from Armenia. Akhalkalak, from the sources I have was part of Armenia, and is inculsive with European maps of historic Armenia, while the article quote the place as a historic province of Georgia. Is there any non-Georgian map, or non-Georgian, non-Turkish/Azeris map that show this? In fact, the Alxendripole investigation was done in the proximities of the region, where a cite of massacre happened, and as a result Armenia lost it, when the Georgians allied with the Turks to end the war. Letter Javakh was annexed to Georgia, and Karabakh to Azerbaijan as part of this policy of destroying Armenia from the Turkish part comploting with the Soviet with false promesses of joining the federation. Those are pretty much accepted versions of events, while here in this article the position is quite different. Fadix 20:30, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Georgian-Armenian War 1918

This is the first time I have ever posted any text on any forum. The disgraceful comment made by one of "Armenian historian" has sickened me to such an extent that now I have to write down a response.

The Georgian-Armenian War was described as it truly was and two main important points have been made by an author: 1. It was provoked by Armenians by their invasion of a sovereign country; 2. The war did alter the image of South Caucasian countries to the world.

The territory itself was settled by some Armenians after Turks forced them out of Turkey's eastern provinces, apparently some in Armenian government had assumed that Javakheti was Armenian as some folk there were ethnically Armenian. After defeating the foreign invader, Georgians, unlike Turks, didn't retaliate toward their own people of an Armenian origin.

Only geographical convenience lies behind many Armenians reshaping and brutally redrawing the maps of its neighbors; otherwise the Southern California would have been long reshaped and colored the same color as Armenians use to color their country.

The best way to end such frequent biases by Armenian users of wikipedia, is by creating a search category named something like: "Armenian dreams", "Armenian chauvinism", "Armenian lies". I am absolutely positive, that this kind of category will prove one simple point - many Armenians use lies and biases as an instrument of their chauvinistic propaganda. It's just pity that their unimaginable, confusing, cowardly interferences harm the image of the region as a whole.

So, with all my respect to Armenian historians and their "maps", please, use them as a substitute to a toilet paper.

I hope this will be my last post on a forum.

Wash your mouth, you may keep such a durty language at home but here in Wikipedia we have rules. As for my "fictif" Armenian lies.

Here, this from Britannica Volume V01, Page 456 (1911)

Pop. (1897) 15,387, of whom many were Armenians, as against 15,977 in 1867. From 1579 to 1828 Akhaltsikh was the capital of Turkish Armenia.

The rest of the population were also Muslim. The Armenian population there didn't appeared after 1915. Maybe then, probably you should check the maps that you are using as toilet paper. Regards. Fad (ix) 04:20, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Uhh, I see, our "historian" gets little emotional and liked the idea of utilizing their maps more efficiently...very good, very good, I like quick learners. Very impressed with your knowledge and references! You know, I am going to quit arguing with you. My final advice - try to learn Georgian, and then you will understand what "Akhalkhikhe" and what "Akhalkalaki" means; I really can't go on and try to prove something that is as clear as their name says.

War of 1918 on Wikipedia you've decided to have remakres made on was based on pure unbisaed factual information; but our little "historian" didn't like it. So good luck to you and keep going with your pointless propaganda, but one friendly advice - throwing trash at your neighbours (and not only Georgia) is not smart... it is harming you tremendously already... and why you let things deteriorate to such an extent? and why you think that your neigbours are your enemies? I don't know, it's really your problem... I know you really wish all southern Georgia to be yours, but you do know the reality too - you need to have good relationship with Georgia as you've already managed to antagonize eastern and western neighbours... and why? Cause someone like you, didn't use those "maps" where they belong... you guessed it right - in a toilet... :)

For next post, I'll be waiting for your at least 25 references, no less! And I am waiting for amernian encyclopidea of 1932, or 1933, ok, as an exception, I'll let you use 1945 edition... but please, no maps, I mean toilet paper; they are too rough, if you know what I mean :) (Only applicable to Armenian arses)

1- I do not live in Armenia, never have set a foot there.

2- Wikipedia does not require 25 sources, you claimed Armenians appeared there in 1915, while Britanica of 1911 says otherwise.

3- The name of a region doesn't say much about its population.

And lastly, continue with this tone and it won't take much time for you to be banned, I have posted few links about Wikipedia policies on your talk page you should read them. Since you are a newbie this time I will close my eyes and pretend as if there was nothing wrong in your behavour. Regards. Fad (ix) 18:21, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

1. A didn't say all Armenians have appeared there in the 20th century; but many have 2. The "rest of muslims" you mention citing britanica, were Georgians, whose religion was muslim (later deported by Stalin) 3. It's OK for a country to have other nationalities living on it's territory, doesn't mean though those nationalities reshape historic borders of the country they live in. 4. I've never said you live in Armenia, I just said your arse is Armenian; any doubts on that? :)

How about you stop with the saucy insults? The antagonistic behavior has been from you. Fadix has provided concrete information. Try to respond with some decorum, don't allow bigotry and paranoia to get in the way. Hakob 21:58, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arnavoudian quote

This is obviousoy taken out of context and cannot stay in the stub text. Furthermore, the quote is from an Armenian source and is POV. There are plenty of Georgian authors who would claim just opposite and describe the war as Armenia's attempt to oust the Muslim Georgian population from the region. Let's keep the text as neutral as possible. --Kober^Talk 07:25, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

“

Armenian-Georgian tensions finally exploded into open war in December of 1918. Full-scale military clashes followed attempts by Georgian forces to repress an Armenian uprising in Lori protesting against Georgian misrule and abuse. Taking the form of a popular peoples' war, Armenian forces initially registered significant gains particularly under the leadership of General Dro. Rapidly however their fortunes dipped. Armenian positions were undermined by Georgian control of sea, road and rail routes essential for Armenian supplies and reinforcements. Georgia also received significant direct and indirect support from Turkish and Azeri forces. In disputed regions where political and military control changed hands regularly Georgia was not averse to Turkish conquests hoping these would drive out Armenian populations fearful of renewed Turkish slaughter. Once they retook possession of these areas, in an indirect form of ethnic cleansing, they proceeded to erect barriers to returning Armenian refuges thus beginning a hoped for demographic transformation of Lori and Akhalkalak.[1]

”

Thats fine thanks. --Vonones 07:34, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Changes

I have beefed up the article using material from Christopher Walker and Andrew Andersen. I have also added "Armenian Phyrric victory" to the result (WP:BOLD) because land that was previously under Georgian administration became joint administration. Also if you look at one of Andersens maps, they show that part of the territory that was previously Georgian administration was put under complete Armenian administration. That's this map, see Sanain and everything south of there. Pocopocopocopoco 02:59, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

After a considerable success, Armenians suffered a defeat on Dec. 14. The mutual administration was the result of the British-brokered truce, not the war. Georgia and Armenia had to fight the nascent Islamic state in SW Caucasus. Therefore, they chose to make peace and agreed to the British-proposed compromise.--Kober^Talk 05:08, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

That would be a good thing to add in the article that the nascent islamic state was a motivation to end hostilities. If you have a source of course. Pocopocopocopoco 00:54, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sadakhlo, Shulaveri and Andersen

We need a source for these recent additions as I can't find it in the website link in that section. Also, although I used Andersen myself to expand this article I have some concerns about the reliability of this source. Please see the discussion at Talk:Qazakh and the discussion at Talk:Qazakh/archive if what Mikka says is true then we might have to reconsider using Andersen throughout wikipedia. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 16:49, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

The previous version inaccurately stated that Armenians evacuated Sanahin on December 14. Georgian counteroffensive did not actually reach that village and it remained under Armenian control at the moment of Dec 31 ceasefire. The December 14 battle took place at Shulaveri and the hostilities ended at Sadakhlo. I have not actually read Andersen's article. My sources are David Marshall Lang, Christopher Walker, and Firuz Kazemzadeh. I'll try to expand the article if I have enough time and energy. --Kober^Talk 16:57, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I've got Walker and I haven't found anything about Sadakhlo and Shulaveri. It must be in the other sources you mentioned. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 17:11, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I rechecked it and you appear to be right. Walker does not provide these details, but two other authors do. Do you have any specific reason to doubt the historicity of these battles? --Kober^Talk 17:25, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I never said I doubted it, it just needs to be sourced as it is inconsistent with what Andersen has on his site. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 17:27, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

DM Lang, History of Modern Georgia, Chapter X, p. 217. Kazemzadeh goes into further details but I don't have his book at hand right now. We can ask our Azerbaijani colleagues to fill the gap as I remember they once cited him somewhere.--Kober^Talk 17:32, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008

Article reassessed and graded as start class. --dashiellx (talk) 15:27, 5 May 2008 (UTC)