Talk:Georgi Kinkladze

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Georgi Kinkladze has been listed as one of the Everyday life good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
Article milestones Date Process Result December 9, 2007 Good article nominee Listed January 28, 2008 Peer review Reviewed April 21, 2008 Peer review Reviewed May 19, 2008 Featured article candidate Not promoted Current Status: Good article

This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or if there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard.

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
GA	This article has been rated as GA-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]
	This article is supported by the Sports and games work group.

	English football Portal The article on Georgi Kinkladze is supported by the WikiProject on Football, which is an attempt to improve the quality and coverage of Association football related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page; if you have any questions about the project or the article ratings below, please consult the FAQ.
GA	This article has been rated as GA-Class on the quality scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale.
	This article is supported by the WikiProject on Argentine football.
	This article is supported by the England task force.
	This article is supported by the Netherlands task force.

	Georgia (country) Portal Georgi Kinkladze is within the scope of WikiProject Georgia (country), an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles on the country of Georgia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
GA	This article has been rated as GA-Class on the Project's quality scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)

Contents 1 Wrong Name 2 Preliminary GA comments 3 Kinkladze entry in football biographic book 4 Kinkladze's stats on Rubin website 5 The push to FA

[edit] Wrong Name

The Name Georgiou does not exist in Georgian language. The Georgian name is Giorgi. Please correct that. -- 87.123.100.198 09:24, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

In England, his name was registered with the FA as Georgiou, and Georgiou is the name which was used on official listings (i.e. Manchester City squadlists). It is how he is most commonly known in English (other than by the truncation Gio), and is therefore the correct title for the English language wikipedia. Oldelpaso 11:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

That has some what of a Romanian connotation, there is no such name in Georgian and there is an apt English equivelent, his name is Georgi, pronounced Gey-org-ee.

Having consulted a number of sources when expanding the article, it seems that Georgi is used more frequently after all. Oldelpaso (talk) 13:10, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Preliminary GA comments

Well, here we are then...

• His nicknames need citation really.
• "A playmaker..." - I know what this is, does the non-expert?
• "...spectacular goals made him a cult hero..." - verging on peacock, in my opinion.
• "Mretebi Tbilisi" - "the first official professional club in the Soviet Union" - citation required plus I'd create the article too if the club is notable as such.
• "mtiulur" - I'd italicise it, it's a strange word and if no wiki-link exists then perhaps it's worth making sure it's clearly a foreign expression.
• "...1993, the Tbilisi management sought to put their players in a more stable environment. Kinkladze, with two others, was sent on loan to Saarbrucken in Germany." - needs citation. Presumably it's the Perfect 10 book, but assertions about the height of the Georgian conflict need other, independent citation.
• Saarbrucken has an umlaut in the infobox and not in the text. Consistency required.
• Use en-dash throughout for page/year ranges.
• "national Player of the Year" - cite.
• "thrashed" - POV.
• "19th August 1995." - WP:DATE - try 19 August 1995.
• "(against Aston Villa)" - why in parentheses?
• "firmly established as the star player of" - NPOV.
• "(rivalling the Maine Road legend Colin Bell in the eyes of some fans)" - original research and, again, why in parentheses?
• "particularly spectacular", "cheekily chipping" - again, NPOV required.
• "In 2003 the goal was voted "Best ever Maine Road goal" in a poll of Manchester City fans." - citation required.
• "bizarre one" - NPOV.
• " The First Division had a reputation for a more physical approach than the Premier League." - cite.
• "which at the time made him the highest paid player in the club's history." - cite.
• " unaffordable luxury" - cite.
• "notorious" - cite, unless that's in the book.
• "calamitous defending including a freak own goal" - NPOV.
• "City no longer controlled their own fate, and were relegated for the second time in three seasons despite a final day win against Stoke City." - cite.
• "...turned sour..." - NPOV.
• "...on 28 November." - new section so complete date with year and wikilink.
• [41] needs to be placed per WP:CITE. I'd put all three citations at the end of the sentence.

On hold. Let me know when you want me to re-review. The Rambling Man 20:48, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Most of the way there now. Notes on specific points:

• • Mretebi: I would create it, but decent sources in English are hard to come by, and I don't like creating substubs.
  • thrashed: Neville Southall uses "murdered" when quoted in Perfect 10, not wanting to use "murdered" I used "thrashed" as an alternative.
  • firmly established as the star player: the flippant response to this would be "he was playing alongside Steve Lomas and Gerry Creaney". This is one of those that can prove difficult. Depicting the extraordinary level of adulation Kinkladze received at City can result in giving a fawning impression if not done carefully, toning it down too much can remove colour. I've attempted to reword it.
  • particularly spectacular: I've removed the "cheekily" but if it won Goal of the Month I think it stands to reason that it was particularly spectacular.
  • Bizzare one: Five managers in five months is almost without precedent in English football. I've changed it to "turbulent", is that better?
  • Highest paid player - a frustrating one as I absolutely know it to be true, but my sources do not mention it explicitly, merely inferring it indirectly. If only online newspaper archives went back a year or two more. But, verifiability not truth means it goes.
  • unaffordable luxury: The term is mine rather than one from a ref, but it is used by way of summary. Both Perfect 10 and Blue Moon Rising go into the relationship between Royle and Kinkladze at length. Having already used a quote from Royle I think a second quote would be excessive, and "Royle viewed Kinkladze as an unaffordable luxury" sums up the picture portrayed by both books.
  • "notorious": I'm almost tempted to respond with "But its Vinnie Jones", but omitting the word doesn't reduce the weight of the sentence by much, so removed. Incidentally, I night have to put Jones' article on my to-do list, it could do with a facelift. Oldelpaso (talk) 11:09, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Good work Oldelpaso, I'm happy with both your revisions and your explanations so I'm happy to promote this article to Good Article status. Well done. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kinkladze entry in football biographic book

Kinkladze Georgi (Georgia). 06 July 1973. Midfielder. Played for Georgian teams Mretebi Tbilisi (1990 - 1991/1992, 80 games, 18 goals) and Dinamo Tbilisi (1992/1993-1994/1995, 65 games, 41 goal), German FC Saarbrücken (1993/1994, 11 games), English Manchester City (1995/1996-1998/1999, 106 games, 20 goals), Dutch Ajax Amsterdam (1998/1999, 12 games), English Derby County (1999/2000, 17 games, 1 goal). Dutch Cup holder - 1999. Best footballer of Georgia - 1993, 1996. Played in 37 games and scored 7 goals for Georgian national team from 1992 to 1999. One of the best Georgian footballers at the close of XX century. ^[1]

I wonder if this information is useful because stats seem to be incorrect.  Jhony   13:16, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Looks like some of the infobox figures include cup matches. I'll check those for which I have cast-iron figures. Oldelpaso (talk) 20:03, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kinkladze's stats on Rubin website

One more version of his statistics (http://www.rubin-kazan.ru/season/statistics/cbdf706b34774812b0a78579a2632363.html)  Jhony   15:06, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

2005	Rubin	9	2
2004/05	Anorthosis	22	2
2003/04	Dinamo (Tbilisi)
2002/03	Derby County	28	4
2001/02	Derby County	24	1
2000/01	Derby County	24	1
1999/00	Derby County	17	1
1998/99	Ajax	12
1997/98	Manchester City	30	4
1996/97	Manchester City	39	12
1995/96	Manchester City	37	4
1994/95	Dinamo (Tbilisi)	21	14
1994	Boca Juniors	3
1993/94	Saarbrücken	11
1993/94	Dinamo (Tbilisi)	14	13
1992/93	Dinamo (Tbilisi)	30	14
1991/92	Mretebi	30	5
1991	Mretebi	20	4

• Should I go ahead and change pre-MC stats in the article in accordance with this, as it's the most plausible version?  Jhony   20:35, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Derby stats from Soccerbase: 1999-2000: League 17 (1), FA Cup 1 (0). 2000-01 League 24 (1), FA Cup 1 (0), League Cup 2 (0). 2001-02 League 24 (1), League Cup 1 (1). 2002-03 League 28 (4) FA Cup 1 (0) League Cup 1 (0). Oldelpaso (talk) 17:47, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

League stats from RSSSF ([1]) match up, so I'll change the infobox figures for Mretebi and Dinamo. Oldelpaso (talk) 16:12, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The push to FA

• I'm planning on trimming some more of the match commentary from the Rubin section, as it is much more detail given than the sections for the other clubs
• I think some of the coverage of transfer speculation (Galatasaray, Liverpool) should be removed. Transfer speculation in newspapers is frequently unreliable, so I don't think we should rely upon it. Oldelpaso (talk) 18:45, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

• (about match commentary) Maybe, I thought about it too. I hope it will positively affect the quality.
• (about transfers) Disagree here, it depends on the case, really. In case of Liverpool, ref just says "according to Kinkladze", not quoting what exactly he said, so I'm not against the removal there. But case of Galatasaray is surely not a speculation, as ref contains Kinkladze's direct speech: "Представители турецкого клуба ведут переговоры с руководством "Дерби" и моим агентом Бенешем, - заявил Георгий. - Однако еще ничего не подписано. Единственное, что я знаю наверняка, это то, что я очень хотел бы остаться и играть за "Дерби"." (translation - "Representatives of the Turkish club are in talks with Derby's directors and my agent Benes, - said Georgi. - However nothing is signed at the moment. The only thing that I know for sure is my desire to remain and play for Derby") By the way, using |quote= to provide ref with English translation is probably a good idea in such cases.  Jhony   20:19, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

• Incidentally it was you who added some part of that "transfer speculation" to the article. :) (I mean "In September 1999 he held transfer talks with Sheffield United, but no move materialised.")  Jhony   20:57, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

The Galatasaray one surprised me, as it isn't mentioned in "Kinkladze: The Perfect 10", which for that part of his career is exhaustive in most other respects. But then I found [2]. It is difficult to separate the genuine attempts to sign him from those that are just bluster from his agent. Oldelpaso (talk) 22:00, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

So, as far as I understand, you are not against keeping Galatasaray fragment in the article. By the way, this BBC link is about Galatasaray's second attempt to sign him in January 2003, while ref in Russian describes their first attempt in summer 2002.  Jhony   19:49, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

• I'm going to change Seba back to Saba, as Saba is an ancient Georgian name, while Seba is not (I can support this with sources in Russian, but I doubt they will be helpful). "Perfect 10" may be inaccurate in spelling of Georgian names ("Robizon" is another example of it).  Jhony   19:49, 15 April 2008 (UTC)