Talk:Genocides in history/Archive 4

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Archive 4

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Archives
Archive 1 (12 Oct 04 to 1 Jul 05) Archive 2 (15 Nov 05 to 13 Mar 06) Archive 3 (17 Mar 06 to 10 Feb 07)

Canadian Residential Schools as Genocide?

Does the Canadian Residential School system classify as genocide on behalf of the Canadian government? Looking at article 2(e) of the convention it seems that this has indeed been met as native canadians were forcibly removed from there homes. It seems like article 2(b) might also be satisfied by the abundant amount of abuse/rape of the children attending these schools. Any thoughts?--Kinewone 01:17, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Residential Schools were set up in Canada in an attempt to bring people living in stone-age societies into the 20th century. They were not an attempt at "genocide" and to suggest that they were is just watering down the term to the point where it becomes meaningless. Less then 10% of aboriginal children at the time were ever in residential schools and the majority of the children attending these schools suffered no abuse at all. The tales of sexual abuse and physical abuse are mirrored in non-aboriginal, church run schools of that era and are an indication of systemic problems within the church hierarchy of the time and not evidence of a attempt by the church or the government of Canada at "genocide" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Julian Watson (talk • contribs) 05:00, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe. What only matters is that you give reliable sources stating these points and synthetising arguments -pro and -contra as neutraly as possible. Alithien 07:18, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

From the history of the article:

17:02, 3 July 2007 Julian Watson: Quoting kevin Annett is like using quotes from Hitler when talking about Jewish people or the KKK when discussing African Americans. He is not a repuatable source and neither is his website.

The (Rev.) Kevin Annett may not be a reliable source, do you have another source to back up you accusation? --Philip Baird Shearer 08:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Kevin Annett has a biography on Wikipedia several web searches brings up some web pages. One of them is a time line. Timeline on a website that is either under the control of Kevin Annett or to which he is the major contributor. In the Timeline it says that

June 12-14, 1998: The first independent Tribunal into Canadian residential schools is convened in Vancouver by IHRAAM (International Human Rights Association of American Minorities), an affiliate of the United Nations. Evidence is submitted by dozens of aboriginal witnesses to crimes against humanity. The Tribunal concludes that the government of Canada and the Catholic, United and Anglican churches are guilty of complicity in Genocide, and recommends to the United Nations that a War Crimes investigation be held.

Another search on "International Human Rights Association of American Minorities" returns: The International Human Rights Association of American Minorities. Now we come the the however. Another search brings up Indian Residential Schools: Kevin Annett and The United Church of Canada May 2007 which is the other POV on his leaving the United Church of Canada by the United Church of Canada. the UCoC link includes a link to a press release by IHRAMM: IHRAAM and the International Indian Tribunal on Residential Schools dated Wednesday, July 8, 1998:

On June 12-14th, an International Indian Tribunal on Residential Schools was held in Vancouver to hear testimony by victims of human rights abuses who attended these schools. Subsequent to the event, the role played at the Tribunal by IHRAAM, an international NGO in consultative status with ECOSOC at the United Nations, has been variously interpreted by the media, by attendant groups and participants. IHRAAM's Communications Director, on behalf of the IHRAAM Directorate, today issued the following clarification concerning both IHRAAM's role, and its intentions with regard to any future Report on this Tribunal:

IHRAAM was invited to participate in the tribunal exclusively as an Observer organization, and did have representation present. Our representation was very concerned about the suffering expressed, as well as about what is being done to redress the grievances. However, IHRAAM holds no recordings of the testimonies delivered, and no official IHRAAM communique has been released to the media or to any other official body with regard to the proceedings of the Tribunal. This does not preclude the issuing of findings or holding of press conferences by local organizers of this event, or their further pursuit of these issues in whatever manner they may see fit. ...

Until I read the second quotation I thought that the first quotation meant that the International Indian Tribunal on Residential Schools held on June 12-14th was held under the auspices of IHRAAM, but now I do not. Given the contents of the two quotation, I for one can not consider the contents of this website: http://canadiangenocide.nativeweb.org/ a reliable source. Until an independent souce can be found that supports Kevin Annett assertions, I think we sould remove the paragraph from the article. --Philip Baird Shearer 09:32, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

French Genocide on Algeria?

No info on this???--85.98.142.37 21:36, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

See Archive 3: Algeria --Philip Baird Shearer 12:03, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Dropping the Atomic Bomb on Japan

I removed the following statement: "The dropping of the Atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a genocide committed by the American to scare and gain respect of the other nations. Almost 500,000 innocent civilian lives were lost with that unethical bombing." by 67.85.42.120. I would argue whether it was genocide at all since it was more of a limited extermination, and if you did include it, then you would need to include carpet bombing Europe and the earlier firebombing of Japan. Even if it is, the above statement speculates as to the reasoning and grossly distorts the number dead--Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki suggests 214,000 as the total dead. Tewdrig 06:37, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Not only the dropping of the atomic bomb on Hirshima and Nagasaki, but also the earlier firebombing of Japan and the carpet bombings in Europe were definitly genocides. All these attacks had only one goal: to kill civilians. In Japan nearly 1.000.000 people were killed and in Germany up to 600.000. It perfectly matches with the definition made by the "Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide". The problem is that the term "genocide" is also a political instrument and usually it can only be used by those who won the war. The Japanese Captain Kunito Hatakeyama was sentenced to death for having commanded the execution of 300 allied war prisioners, but Truman was celebrated like a heroe for having killed nearly one millon civilians.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.78.179.178 (talk • contribs) 00:04, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Pre-1500 Genocides? Some more non-Eurocentric ones?

Shouldn't this page include genocides from classical and medival history as well? I.e. the Melian genocide in Thucididies, etc.? I don't want to give the impression that genocide is at all a recent ocurrance. Also, though the writers to a good job of explaining non-Euoprean genocides after 1900, I feel as if this article is severly european-oriented before this time. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.174.190.59 (talk • contribs) 18:22, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

See Archive 3: Ancient/medieval genocides. Any claim that an event was a gencide should be attributed to a reliable source. --Philip Baird Shearer 12:09, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Todays entry to the page:

Historians and genocide scholars have considered whether the following events consitute genocide: Rome’s final war with Carthage, the Mongol Conquests, the Albigensian Crusades, the Great Witch-Hunt, Christians in Japan,

It does not say if they, Chalk & Jonassohn, found them to be genocides, only that they looked at them. The ICC looked at the alledged Bosnian genocide and found that it was not one, (Only that the Srebrenica massacre has been found to be a genocide) so looking at and finding that it was a genocide are two different things

The text in the next paragraph does not say that Chalk & Jonassohn consider the Albigensian Crusade a genocide, only that it was a massacre. --Philip Baird Shearer 17:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The Commonwealth of Poland-Lithuania

I removed the section "The Commonwealth of Poland-Lithuania" as no attributable sources claiming it was a genocide have been given and it has been months since one was requested. --Philip Baird Shearer 20:28, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Imperial Japan

Like most of the other sections it describes some very nasty stuff, some of which were crimes against humanity, but despite several weeks since a citation was asked for that the nastiness was a genocide, none have been given and it is not at all clear that the incidents would be considered a genocide under CPPCG if they were to happen today, so I have removed the section. --Philip Baird Shearer 20:28, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

The Holocaust is not Alleged

The Holocaust really happened. Why on earth does this article call it an alleged genocide? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.113.71.242 (talk • contribs) 09:46, 12 May 2007

I think that the first paragraph covers it:

Because the universal acceptance of international laws, defining and forbidding genocide was achieved in 1948, with the promulgation of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG), those criminals who were prosecuted after the war in international courts, for taking part in the Holocaust were found guilty of crimes against humanity and other more specific crimes like murder. Nevertheless the Holocaust is universally recognized to have been a genocide.

But if that solution is unacceptable then we will have to break the cronlogical ordering of the article and move the Holocust into International prosecution of genocide (ad hoc tribunals). --Philip Baird Shearer 11:26, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

The Genocide of the Boer people

Why is the genocide by the British in the second Boer war not mentioned here? These people were the first victims of concentration camps, and 28000 women and children died in these camps under the most horrifying conditions. See wiki article - Second Boer war —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 222.116.95.100 (talk) 02:53, 14 May 2007 (UTC).

Because to be genocide there must be "intent to destroy, in whole or in part," It was not the intention of the British to exterminate the Boers. If it was then it was not very effective: why did the death rates in the camps reach a peak and then fall as better hygiene conditions were introduced and why did the British close the camps at the end of the war and let those interred return to their homes instead of killing them all? --Philip Baird Shearer 06:30, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

The conditions changed only after the shocking conditions were made public by Emily Hobhouse. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Hobhouse Furthermore, denying the intent of genocide does not negate the consequences of it's implementation.

The highlighted section describes the conditions in the camps perfectly:

...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. – Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article II

Whether it's genocide or not, it remains a atrocity with few equals. Any input is appreciated - Tell me what you think. Please. To remember them is to honour them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 222.116.95.175 (talk • contribs) 15:42, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

please sign you entries on a talk page with ~~~~ They will automagically be turned into user ID/IP and a time stamp.

There must be intent to carry out mass killing of a significant part of a group, and for that intent to be implemented for it to be a genocide. All genocides are atrocities but not all atrocities are genocide. However it is not for us to decide this issue here. See the entry on Ireland, for an example of how an entry on the Britsh treatment of the Boer population can be presented on this page with neutral point of view. If you can find a verifiable reliable source which claims that it was a genocide then it can be included on this page.--Philip Baird Shearer 23:05, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Removal of Alledged

I removed alleged from this as it is disrespectful to the victims of these crimes, in the presence of either overwhelming evidence or deliberately destroyed or suppressed evidence. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 222.116.95.100 (talk) 02:57, 14 May 2007 (UTC).

China in 1800s

The recently introduced sectio on China in the 1800s does not cite a reliable source that these events were a genocide. Please provide some or this section should be removed. --Philip Baird Shearer 23:19, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

The source that I cited this information from is reliable; Jacques Gernet’s A History of Chinese Civilization, one of the most comprehensive books on China’s history.( check the reviews [1]) And it said, word for word, “In Shensi and Kansu the number of victims is reckoned to have been several million; the figure in Kweichow is five million”. (Shensi and Kansu is where the Muslims rebelled and Kweichow is where the Miao people rebelled.)Editingman 05:14, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

All genocides involves mass killings, but not all mass killings are genocide. Do you have a source that these mass killings were genocide? --Philip Baird Shearer 10:28, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Npov - "Sabra and Shatila"

See Talk:Genocides in history/Archive 3#Sabra-Shatila - NPOV

While all information about the controverse around the fact that Sabra and Shatila massacre would have been a genocide is not explained, this article will not be neutral.
"Alleged" was already not a solution. Now it has been removed, this is not acceptable. Alithien 07:35, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

It has not been removed, the title has been changed to "Timeline of genocides and alleged genocides" for the whole period, as others have objected to the Holocaust under "Alleged genocides from 1915 to 1950". I am removing it because you are not disputing the whole article, you are only disputing one section. Also the wording makes it clear that "On December 16, 1982, the United Nations General Assembly condemned the massacre and declared it to be an act of genocide.". I persume that you are not disputing that fact and you have yet to produce any verifiable reliable source that would in your opinion balance up the POV --Philip Baird Shearer 11:41, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree. We have attributed the allegation to the UN. Also, if there is a counter POV relevent to the massacre and to the concept of genocide, then please add it (as long as it is sourced).Bless sins 17:21, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Dear Gentlemen,
In february, you explained me the "alleged" solved the problem and I gave you the references and explained you that my English was not good enough to introduce this in the article...
So, here are some excerpts. Could you add them to the article and add the pov flag in the section until these facts and pov are introduced ?

---

This resolution is nevertheless considered as a "carefully planned UN campaign" to make "Israel guilty of genocide" and that the "procedures [that lead to the resolution] were unique in the annals of the United Nations".^[1]
In particular, the resolution was carried by 123 with 22 abstentions (by the Western democracies and four Third World countries). More, the paragraph 2, which "resolved that the massacre was an act of genocide", was adopted by ninety-eight votes to nineteen, with twenty-three abstention.^[2]^, ”.^[3]
According to William Schabas, the "the term genocide (…) had obviously been chosen to embarrass Israel rather than out of any concern with legal precision”.^[4] During the debates :

The representative of Singapore stated :

My delegation regret the use of the term “an act of genocide (…). In the Convention, the term "genocide" is used to mean acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group".^[5]

The representative of Canada stated :

the term genocide cannot, in our view, be applied to this particular inhuman act to which Singapored echoed : We also question whether the General Assembly has the competence to make such determination^[6].

The United States stated that :

while the criminality of the massacre was beyond question, it was a serious and reckless misuse of language to label this tragedy genocide ad defined in the 1948 Convention (…). .^[7]

^ Georges Andreopoulos, Genocide. Conceptual and Historial Dimensions, p.37
^ Georges Andreopoulos, Genocide. Conceptual and Historial Dimensions, p.37
^ William Schabas, Genocide in International Law. The Crimes of Crimes, p.455
^ William Schabas, Genocide in International Law. The Crimes of Crimes, p.455
^ William Schabas, Genocide in International Law. The Crimes of Crimes, p.455
^ William Schabas, Genocide in International Law. The Crimes of Crimes, p.455
^ William Schabas, Genocide in International Law. The Crimes of Crimes, p.455

Alithien 16:26, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

The material and point of view has been added. Bless sins 22:56, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Jayjg, can you stop removing sourced amterial that I have added. Please note that the material is from the same source you added earlier.Bless sins 03:11, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps, but it's been POVd (as usual), and the article is about the accusation of genocide, not the massacre itself, which has its own article. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:15, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

As usual? This is proabably the second time I'm editing this article (in a long time). Ofcourse the article is about the genocide, but that doesn't mean we don't talk about what actually happened. Surely the reader is interested in the events as well. All the "POV"/content I have added come from your sources.Bless sins 03:24, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

The source also states that the attribution of the term "genocide" to the event was an abuse of the term and UN process. Somehow you left that out. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I would have most certainly included that, but you beat me to it.[2] No point in duplicate statements.Bless sins 03:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

LOL! Jayjg ^(talk) 04:10, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

From my point of view, this version [3] is good.
Maybe a last comment by "palestinian officials" about the word "genocide" (to have the victims pov) would close the case.
Thank you, Alithien 07:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok. I found this.

In the lawsuit against Ariel Sharon, the "victims" added the "crime of genocide" against Ariel Sharon (See official documents on this website). So, from their point of view, there has been a genocide. I think this has to be mentioned too. Alithien 08:16, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Following you link to The case lodged in Belgium on 18 June 2001 Documents gives a number of documents as you said. Looking at the complaints in English (with endnotes). It includes this text:

"all the constituent elements of the crime of genocide, as defined in the 1948 Convention and as reproduced in article 6 of the ICC Statute and in article 1§1 of the law of 16 June 1993,29 are present."

So we could present this as:

In a Belgium court case lodged on 18 June 2001 by 23 survivors of the 1982 Sabra and Shatila massacres, the prosecution alleged that Ariel Sharon, former Israeli defense minister (and Israel's prime minister in 2001), as well as other Israelis committed a number of crimes including genocide,[4] because "all the constituent elements of the crime of genocide, as defined in the 1948 Convention and as reproduced in article 6 of the ICC Statute and in article 1§1 of the law of 16 June 1993,29 are present."[5]. This allegation was not tested in Belgium court because on 12 February 2003 the Court of Cassation (Belgian Supreme Court) ruled that under international customary law, acting heads of state and government can not become the object of proceedings before criminal tribunals in foreign state (although for the crime of genocide they could be the subject of proceedings of an international tribunal).[6][7] This ruling was a reiteration of a decision made a year earlier by the International Court of Justice on 14 February, 2002.[8] Following these ruling in June 2003 the Belgian Justice Ministry decided to start a procedure to transfer the case to Israel,[9] so to date the accusation that the massacres in Sabra and Shatila were a genocide has not been tested in any court.

Comments? --Philip Baird Shearer 10:07, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it is perfect concerning the juridictionnal matter.

I just thought that a pov that deserves room is that "victims consider themselves as victims of genocide acts" more than the "genocide accusation has not been tested in any court"

ie, I think "victims pov" (true or not) is very important.

So, I would suggest to emphasize this more, eg in starting a new paragraph just before "This allegation was not tested (...)".

Note it is BelgIUm and not BelgUIm :-)

Thank you for your work ! Alithien 13:00, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Philip, it looks fine to me as well, except for the spelling errors, which I fixed. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:34, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Btw, what is the source for "This allegation was not tested.."? Yeah, I agree with putting the above paragraph in.Bless sins 01:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

None, I drew (what I think is a reasonable) inference from web site that is pressing for a trial. It records the fact that the Belgium ministry off loaded it (They could perhapses have tried Israeli minnows but decided not) and I can't see that there was or ever will be a trial in Israel. --Philip Baird Shearer 09:31, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I have replaced the Leo Kuper paragraph and qoute with the one discussed above. I think one paragraph for and against the UN is enough to give a neutral point of view --Philip Baird Shearer 10:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

From my point of view, that is ok. Alithien 14:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

But it's not O.K. with me. It makes an important point. You can add your material but don't delete Kuper. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:17, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

What additional important point that it makes? --Philip Baird Shearer 09:00, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Several, including the fact that the "availability of a scapegoat state in the UN restores members with a record of murderous violence against their subjects a self-righteous sense of moral purpose as principled members of 'the community of nations'...", that "a carefully planned UN campaign found Israel guilty of genocide, without reference to the role of the Phalangists in perpetrating the massacres on their own initiative" and that "the procedures were unique in the annals of the United Nations". Jayjg ^(talk) 02:13, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but per WP:UNDUE, we should give both arguments equal wieght.Bless sins 03:01, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE doesn't say that. Is there some material from reliable sources that you would like to include that provides a different viewpoint on the U.N. resolution? Jayjg ^(talk) 14:06, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

edits by Bless sins

BTW, why are you undoing my edits here. The paragraph about the massacre/genocide itself is actually missing sources. I have added the sources, and clarified Israel's and Phalangists' role in the massacre/genocide. If you we are going to talk about the accusation of genocide, atleast we shoudl tell the reader as to what actually happened.Bless sins 03:01, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm undoing them because you have POVd the material, and gone into too much detail. There is a whole article about Sabra and Shatila, this article is specifically about the accusation of genocide. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:10, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I have not gone into "too much detail". It is very confusing to discuss about the accusations, and omit a brief overview of what actually happened. Anyways, I'll try and shorten it up a bit.Bless sins 03:21, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I have added a much shorter version.[10]Bless sins 03:31, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, your version inserted just one POV, and removed much of the actually relevant material, which was the stuff about the accusation of genocide. This article is about genocide. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:34, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

That was a mistake that I was quick to correct. In any case, the version you insist on isn't even sourced. Why are removing material from the same source as you've used for other material? The author (whose "POV" I'm inserting) has already been added before (by you).Bless sins 03:39, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

The version is now fully sourced, and NPOV. Let's keep it short, and particularly lets try to keep out cherry-picked POV trying to demonize Israel, O.K.? Jayjg ^(talk) 03:54, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

No one is trying to deomnize Israel. But please don't try to whitewash it either. Also, you are the one who is cherry-picking. You picked some quotes from teh source, yet ignored the rest, particularly the ones that actually say what Israel did during the massacre.Bless sins 14:03, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I share Jayjg's mind. What was added is only one POV of the matter.
This section here is assumed to talk about the allegations of genocide for Sabra and Shatila massacre. That's all. All other information should be directed to the main article.
It is useless to transform this article in a new battlefield.
The 4 lines of the version I read now is perfect. I would even have deleted that Israel was assumed to be responsible as occupation army because the importance of this responsibility is controversed but that is better to write this for coherence with the remaining. Alithien 10:27, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Aren't we supposed to tell the reader atleast what Israel did, so that it was accused of genocide. I have made a final comrpomise here[11]. The content I'm adding is directly in relation to the accusation of genocide.Bless sins 14:02, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

But it again implies that Israel sent them in for the purpose of genocide. The actual material about genocide, and the links to the more nuanced articles, give the whole context. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:34, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. And the reasons why they entered the camps (even the idea that Israel would have sent them is controversed) are numerous and controversed. How could we give a neutral summary except in refering to the main article ? Alithien 18:49, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Bless Sins, what is your concern with :

"Responsibility for the massacre has been attributed to the Phalangists as the perpetrators, and indirectly to Israel as the occupying army."

Maybe we could replace by :

"Kahane Commission attributed responsability for the massacre to the Phalangists as the perpetrators, and indirectly to Israel as the occupying army but the subject of responsabilities is still debatted and controversed." Alithien 18:55, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

St Barthelemy massacre

Hi,
With the definition given here to a "genocide" (which is a wide one), maybe these events could be added in the list : fr:Massacre de la Saint-Barthélemy.
During that period, Protestants were chased and massacred in whole France (2000 deads at Paris and 5000 to 10000 in France) under the order of the King and/or roman catholic church. (this is a controverse).
But I don't know if anybody ever talked about a genocide concerning these events...
Regards, Alithien 08:11, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

If it is included in this article, then a reliable source claiming that it was a genocide needs to be provided. --Philip Baird Shearer 14:05, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Of course. That was just for information. Alithien 13:49, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Nasty but not a genocide?

Recently, there has been a lot of removal here with the reason given as "Nasty but not a genocide". Just wondering, what makes a genocide a genocide? Thanks! DangerousNerd talk 19:21, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

the sources... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alithien (talk • contribs)

Could you be more specific? Thanks! DangerousNerd talk 19:27, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

BTW, please sign your comments by adding four ~'s to the end. Thank you! DangerousNerd talk 19:28, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi,

Please just read a comment made to me in the section just here above.

For WP, anything, to be a genocide, requires a reliable source that states it is a genocide.

No more, no less. That is the policy (and it is good). Alithien 19:37, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Gotcha. Thanks! DangerousNerd talk 19:42, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Brazil

User:Belligero has identified several sources that can be used for writing a piece on genocide in Brazil including:

Indigenous Genocide in the Brazilian Amazon Genocide Studies Program at Yale University's MacMillan Center for International and Area Studies.

But the two current paragraphs added by Belligero in the Brazil section, that could have been used as a kernal for developing the section are copyright violations:

A former state governor and a former top policeman...

This is a direct copy from http://www.survival-international.org/news/1258

The massacre of the Tikuna people, also known as the Helmet Massacre, ...

Is a direct copy from http://www.brazzilmag.com/content/view/711/41/ --Philip Baird Shearer 19:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Copyright violation

Checking further edits from the text Belligero has added to this article. The first paragraph Belligero added to the Soviet Union section is:

Most Nazis were absolute racists, especially among the top echelon; they believed utterly in the superiority of the "Aryan" race. ... 30,000,000 or 40,000,000 Slavs to Siberia.

It is a copy of two paragraphs from from http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NAZIS.CHAP1.HTM The first sentence of the next paragraph you added:

The Jewish Holocaust took place in the context ...

comes from http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=5687 as does AFAICT the rest of the paragraph from different paragraphis in the original text.

In an two edit to this page user:Belligero seems to claim that the copy came from [12] which claims it is a copy from www.savethemales.ca and that it may be copyrighted, -- all three texts are the same. --Philip Baird Shearer 10:53, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

~~The next paragraph second sentence that starts~~

~~A Russian historian Vadim Erlikman, has given detail of losses in each Soviet Republic totaling....~~

~~is from http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/encyclopedia/w/wo/world_war_ii_casualties.html~~

In the same two edit of this page User:Belligero pointed out that this is a mirror site of the wikipedia page World_War_II_casualties so it is not a copyright violation. Therefor I made a mistake for which I apologise. --Philip Baird Shearer

I am not going to do any more. .... --Philip Baird Shearer 20:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Two paragraphs added 19:06, 17 June 2007 by user:Belligero that start "Mr. Hemming estimates there were over 2.5..." and "Along the Amazon river and its major" are a copyright violation of WAR, DISEASE, SLAVERY AND POISONED WELLS By ALAN RIDING; ALAN RIDING IS CHIEF OF THE NEW YORK TIMES BUREAU IN RIO DE JANEIRO AND AUTHOR OF DISTANT NEIGHBORS: A PORTRAIT OF THE MEXICANS. January 31, 1988 --Philip Baird Shearer 14:35, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Nazi Genocide against the Jews and Slavs

Hi Philip Baird Shearer. Why did you remove some recently added see also and main articles in Genocides in history? (World War II atrocities in Poland, Occupation of Belarus by Nazi Germany, Occupation of Latvia by Nazi Germany and Consequences of German Nazism)

The legal definition of Genocide:

Genocide is the mass killing of a group of people, as defined by Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG) as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

Consequences of German Nazism (The Nazi Genocide):

The main targets of the Nazi Genocide were the Jews of Europe, of whom approximately six million were killed, including 1.5 million children. Other targets included Roma, mentally ill, homosexuals, political opponents, and primarily Poles, Belarusians, Russians and other Slavs.

This is already covered by the links provided: The Holocaust and Racial policy of Nazi Germany and this link to "Consequences of German Nazism" is a general article which is not very well sourced and is not specific to the genocide, therefor it is not a main article. --Philip Baird Shearer 12:34, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Generalplan Ost:

Generalplan Ost (GPO) was a Nazi plan to realize Hitler's "new order of ethnographical relations" in the territories occupied by Germany in Eastern Europe during World War II. It was prepared in 1941 and confirmed in 1942. The plan was part of Hitler's own Lebensraum plan and a fulfilment of the Drang nach Osten ("Drive towards the East") state ideology.

The final version of Generalplan Ost, essentially a grand plan for ethnic cleansing, was divided into two parts; the Kleine Planung ("Small Plan"), which covered actions which were to be taken during the war, and the Grosse Planung ("Big Plan"), which covered actions to be undertaken after the war was won (to be carried into effect gradually over a period of 25-30 years).

The Small Plan was to be put into practice as the Germans conquered the areas to the east of their pre-war borders. The individual stages of this plan would then be worked out in greater detail. In this way the plan for Poland was drawn up at the end of November, 1939. The plan envisaged differing percentages of the various conquered nations undergoing Germanisation, expulsion into the depths of Russia, and other fates, the net effect of which would be to ensure that the conquered territories would be Germanized.

In ten years' time, the plan called for the extermination, expulsion, enslavement or Germanisation of most or all Poles and East Slavs living behind the front lines in Europe. Instead, 250 million Germans would live in an extended Lebensraum ("living space") of the 1000-Year Reich (Tausendjähriges Reich). Fifty years after the war, under the Große Planung, Generalplan Ost foresaw the eventual expulsion and extermination of more than 50 million Slavs beyond the Ural Mountains.

Of the Poles, by 1952 only about 3-4 million people were supposed to be left residing in the former Poland, and then only to serve as slaves for German settlers. They were to be forbidden to marry, the existing ban on any medical help to Poles in Germany would be extended, and eventually Poles (believed by the Nazis to be Untermenschen, that is "sub-people") would cease to exist.

For it to be a genocide then there must be a genocidal plan that is implemented. If you wish this to be included then find a reliable source that claims it was a genocide. To date the article "Generalplan Ost" does not cite a reliable source that says it was a genocide. --Philip Baird Shearer 12:34, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

World War II casualties

A Russian historian Vadim Erlikman has detailed Soviet losses totaling 26.5 million war related deaths. Military losses of 10.6 million include 7.6 million killed or missing in action and 2.6 million POW dead, plus 400,000 paramilitary and Soviet partisan losses. Civilian deaths totaled 15.9 million which included 1.5 million from military actions; 7.1 million victims of Nazi genocide and reprisals; 1.8 million deported to Germany for forced labor; and 5.5 million famine and disease deaths. Additional famine deaths which totaled 1 million during 1946-47 are not included here. The official Polish government report of war losses prepared in 1947 reported 6,028,000 war victims out of a population of 27,007,000 ethnic Poles and Jews; this report excluded ethnic Ukrainian and Belarusian losses.

See above, war casualties is not a specific article about genocide. --Philip Baird Shearer 12:34, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Belligero 20:58, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

One of the techniques used by Holocaust deniers is to claim that what happened to those specific groups targeted by the Nazis for genocide was just part of a pattern and is only one of the lower steps on a ladder that descends into the abyss . The classic example of this is the work by David Irving and his attempts to show that there is some sort of moral equivalence in the action of the Allies and the Nazis. It is not that the Nazis and their allies did not commit many horrific crimes, but to be included on this page those crimes must have been noted as genocides by verifiable and reliable sources and for those claims that are not generally accepted by English language sources as genocide, they should be made in a form where the author is mentioned in the article text (as is done for sections like Ireland and Soviet invasion of Afghanistan). --Philip Baird Shearer 12:34, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

So you guess that anyone who claims that the Slavs (Poles, Russians etc.), along with Jews, had also been the object of genocide (Nazi plans & at least 30 million deaths in Poland, Czechoslovakia, Belarus, Ukraine and Russia) is Holocaust denier? It's absurd. Belligero 18:06, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Of course not all people who think that there was a genocide against Slavs are Holocaust deniers, But it is one of the well known techniques used by politically motivated revisionists to insert doubt through an association fallacy and other attempts at obfuscation. To be a genocide not only must there be a plan, but there must also be an implementation of the plan. It is beyond dispute that there was a plan and an implementation of genocide against the Jews and the Roma. That other mass killings and other crimes against humanity were genocides is not generally agreed in English sources, so any assertion that these other peoples were subject to a genocide should be backed up with verifiable and reliable sources. --Philip Baird Shearer 11:55, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

There wasn't unified policy to treat all Slavic nations within the reach of Third Reich in the same way. The plans were opportunistic, changed over the course of the war and were often postponed until the war ends. This is topic not covered (or very poorly covered) on Wikipedia. At least WP should not be oversimplifying talking about fate of "Slavs" as a single entity. Pavel Vozenilek 19:06, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

The objects of diverse Nazi plans for mass extermination and/or Germanisation and deportation of Untermenschen (the "subhumans") had been all East Slavic nations (Belarussians, Ukrainians, Russians) and some West Slavic nations (Poles, Czechs). Under Generalplan Ost, a percentage of Slavs in the conquered territories were to be Germanised. Those unfit for Germanisation were to be expelled from the areas marked out for German settlement. In considering the fate of the individual nations, the architects of the Plan decided that it would be possible to Germanise about 50 per cent of the Czechs, 35 per cent of the Ukrainians and 25 per cent of the Belarussians. The remainder would have had to be annihilated or deported to western Siberia.

"Bohemia and Moravia must become German, Czechs have no business to be here." - Reinhard Heydrich, October 1941.

War in Eastern Europe was a brutal, exterminatory war. For example, nearly 3 million people (1 million Jews and 2 million Slavs), up to 30 percent of the republic's population, were killed in Belarus within the three years of German occupation. 80 percent of the towns and villages (about 9,200 villages) in Belarus were destroyed.

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/05/eed57fb9-d05f-458f-acb3-05aa57e246d8.html

From the start, the war in the East was intended as a fulfillment of the plan described by Adolf Hitler in his book Mein Kampf. The main axis of the plan was that all of Eastern Europe should become part of the greater Germany, the so called German Lebensraum (living space). The SS was sent, as stated by Adolf Hitler in his Armenian quote: "with orders for them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish race and language". Belligero 19:26, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I made a few changes, such as including the figure for Slavs killed from R.J. Rummel (with reference). It is not clear where "upwards of 11 million people...exterminated" came from or what it refers to. Rummel mentions "15,003,000 to 31,595,000 people" "none of these monstrous figures even include civilian and military combat or war-deaths." (see his book). Since the current number has no reference, I suggest putting in Rummel's numbers. - Pavel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.172.192.174 (talk) 20:47, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

Inertia

By the way, there is no evidence of similar plans [to those of Generalplan Ost] for mass extermination of American indigenous peoples or people of Congo. What makes a genocide a genocide on Wikipedia? Belligero 19:26, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Inertia. (See this article on 20 June 2005)

Over the last two years to address the criticism that Wikipedia was not reliable, the threshold for inclusion of information in Wikipdia articles has gone up and this is particularly true for in controversial articles like this one. When an editor adds new information to an article like this it is much easier to challenge them because they presumably have reliable sources and ask them to include them if the text is to remain in the article.

But if you look back through the archives of this page, you will see that a lot of sections have been removed after a suitable warning has been given and the issue has been discussed on the talk page. Personally I am for continuing this process, and after discussing on the talk page any sections that do not have reliable sources stating that an event was a genocide, removing them after a suitable interval if they still have no such sources. --Philip Baird Shearer 00:28, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

First recorded genocide

Why does the timeline start at "1500 A.D."? Genocides had been going on long before that. I'll give a Barnstar to the person who can identify the first recorded genocide. Who knows? Jtpaladin 21:17, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

If you are going to give a barnstar, then please only give one to an editor who knows of a reliable source that can identify the first recorded genocide, otherwise it is orignial research and of no use to this article. --Philip Baird Shearer 22:54, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

hé hé hé :-)

I would suggest the following base :

500,000 years ago Neanderthal and Homo Sapiens coexisted but only our ancestors survived. There is debate among scientists to know if this extinction was or not the result of struggle between both species and also to see how much both these species can be considered common. Today, "whether Homo Sapiens committed its first genocide in this remote past or whether the Neanderthal disappeared because of changing ecological circumstances or other reasons remains an unresolved question." (Linda Stone and al, "Genes, Culture and Human Evolution : a Synthesis", Blackwell Publishing, 2006, p.173, ISBN 1405150890.

Alithien 07:45, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Of course I would only give it to someone who could give me a RS. But, hey, Philip thanks for the concern. :) Jtpaladin 16:22, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Bosnian genocide

I have changed the wording from

In spite of this judgement, some argue that the killing of Bosniaks during the 1992-1995 war in Bosnia and Herzegovina did constitute genocide and the term Bosnian genocide is used by some (University of California Riverside, Bosnian Genocide In the Historical Perspective, [13]), and human rights officials (Human Rights Watch, Milosevic to Face Bosnian Genocide Charges, 11 December 2001 [14]).

To that currently used in the Bosnian Genocide article that says

... Before this ruling the term Bosnian Genocide had been used by some academics (University of California Riverside, Bosnian Genocide In the Historical Perspective, [15]), and human rights officials (Human Rights Watch, Milosevic to Face Bosnian Genocide Charges, 11 December 2001 [16]).

The reason for this is that to date no one has presented an academic or human rights official sources that have used the term Bosnian genocide. The academic source was cited in an version of the Wikipedia Bosnian Genocide article that was published before the ICJ judgement. The souce now says "Important Note: This syllabus is from a past course, ... I suggest that you pay attention to the following schedule: February 1st. One-page statement of topic and thesis" (my emphasis). --Philip Baird Shearer 09:16, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Request to remove the Tibet section

There's only the presuming of genocide,but not even a primary source or account.When the current article is named as Genocide in history.--Ksyrie(Talkie talkie) 00:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that the Tibet section meets the requirements for inclusion. --Philip Baird Shearer 18:29, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

The Americas

This section has been in the article for a long time. However unlike most of the more recent additions it does not carry any references from any academic source that alleges these acts were genocides. It is my intention to delete these sections or parts of sections unless reliable sources are provided that allege these were genocides. --Philip Baird Shearer 22:53, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that makes a lot of sense, particularly since the entry itself in parts talks about the deaths coming from disease. Mamalujo 23:33, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the new section America for the same reason that I removed most of the Americas section. There must be reliable sources which claim that the mega deaths of Indians were genocides, but to date none have been presented. It is not the up to Wikipedia to make the allegations (WP:OR) it is up to Wikipedia to record reliable third party allegations and hopefully other reliable third party sources refuting the allegations for a balanced WP:POV. --Philip Baird Shearer 15:15, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

This article shows all the genocide or alleged genocide.some credit it,someone not.But if one person though it as genocide,it should be remained.--Ksyrie(Talkie talkie) 01:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Some links of google book [17]

,unless you can all the refute,keep it in the current article is better.--Ksyrie(Talkie talkie) 01:46, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

This source you have included in the text is not a reliable source. Do a Google search on ["Fleming Center", Washington]. Also see Slide 8: "Genocide Caused Dramatic American Indian Population Decline" it relies on "Churchill, A Little Matter of Genocide" see below about Churchill.

You may be able to build an argument from this URL you provided "Makson, Did Uncle Sam Play the Role of Hitler in Killing Blacks and Indians? History News Network Feb. 3, 2003 But part of the text from that article reads:

Although the pair has not received any funding and are unsure whether Duke or Minnesota University Press will publish the anthology after many rejections from other publishing houses because of what Leonard called "a powerful hegemonic resistance to any sort of critique of the ways that the Jewish Holocaust is talked about in and out the academy," the pair, however, are being inundated with submissions.

Does not sound as if they have a peer reviewed publication. And this section

Some of the contributors will include: Dr. Ward Churchill of the University of Colorado – Boulder, a man who pretends to be a "radical Indian activist" and who physically attacked and broke Mrs. Carol Standing Elk’s wrist after she exposed him as a fraud to the Native American community;

which rather dams the other URL you provide: A Little Matter of Genocide: holocaust and denial in the Americas, 1492 to the present By Churchill, Ward. Also please read the Wikipedia entry for Ward Churchill and I think you will see that this book is not a reliable scholarly source.

I think we need to find more reliable scholarly sources than those which you have presented for such a controversial entry. --Philip Baird Shearer 13:02, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

There's many articles arguing the inexistence of Armenian Genocide,but it cann't make the one disappear in the current article.If you delete the Indian war one,you had to delete the majorities of genocides or allegede genocides in the current article.And it makes this artilce nosense.You can list as many books or papers to deny it,but millions of proofs can also add support to it.Keep it in mind,the current just show the genocides or alleged genocide.--Ksyrie(Talkie talkie) 13:22, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Just adding a link from U.S. Department of Education.You can check it.--Ksyrie(Talkie talkie) 13:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the section again. Tacking onto the end of the section an Abstract to an article that you have not read does not fix all the problems mentioned above. Please spend a little time in a library, or respectable articles published on the internet and construct a section based on respected reliable sources. --Philip Baird Shearer 14:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

You call the sources from U.S. Department of Education unreliable？Non sense.--Ksyrie(Talkie talkie) 18:58, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

the alleged genocides under Mao might be more your area of expertise, how about you help out there? :) The Jackal God 01:20, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

See Talk:Genocides_in_history/Archive 3#Tibet Ksyrie has taken an active interest in alleged genocides in China. --Philip Baird Shearer 15:54, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

i was thinking more along the lines of the 30-60 million lives lost to Mao's cultural revolution. The Jackal God 00:27, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I wonder your criteria of judging the genocide,the Tibetan one gets no numbers,even the most fluent one.Nowadays,In Tibet,the Tibetan is the majority.By contrast,in the North America,before 1800,the Indians are majorties,but the white only minorities.Ok,how about nowadays？

The The Great Chinese Famine,we had it in the category of economic disaster--Ksyrie(Talkie talkie) 16:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Vandalism "Any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia, even if misguided or ill-considered, is not vandalism. ". As I said above: "I have removed the section again. Tacking onto the end of the section an Abstract to an article that you have not read does not fix all the problems mentioned above. Please spend a little time in a library, or respectable articles published on the Internet and construct a section based on respected reliable sources." --Philip Baird Shearer 16:26, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

The slaughter of Indians people is well-kown,and well-documented.I don't know why the sources suggested cannt be categorised as reliable source?The force relocation,direct hunting,and forced sterilization are all told many many times.--Ksyrie(Talkie talkie) 16:36, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I have explained the reasons why the sources given are not reliable sources please read what is above and comment on the comments to the sources. For example why do yo think that Ward Churchill is a reliable source? If as you say "The slaughter of Indians people is well-kown,and well-documented [as a genocide]" then you will have no problems finding a reliable source. I suggest you start with the list of scholars in the genocide definitions article as no doubt many of them will have published papers on this episode. --Philip Baird Shearer 18:25, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

mer, in response to your innuendo, i guess we should also suspect the Han chinese of genocide against all the other chinese minorities whom they vastly outnumber, or the fukien and kmt chinese of genocide against the taiwanese aboriginals for the same reason. and what was the Armenian genocide, a hiking disaster? The Jackal God 19:41, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I am not going to deny of the existence of genocide in chinese history,it happened,and someone all listed them.But for the american one,you seems not to see the past as history.I just add some new sources.--Ksyrie(Talkie talkie) 19:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Here is a book no one seems to reference here: "American Holocaust: The Conquest of the New World". What are people looking for to define the killing of Native Americans as a genocide? Isn't it enough that the United States government was paying money for dead Native Americans? There was a policy to clear California of Native Americans, for example, and entire tribes disappeared almost over night - and they were authorized by the U.S. and/or local governments. There are examples like this all over the United States. There are plenty of documented sources for things like this - the book I mentioned lists a number of them. They weren't killed because they were a target in a battle - they were killed because the tribes were in the way and considered a nuiscance to take care of.Jimhoward72 13:53, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Congo

At the moment there is no reliable source in the article that claims that the brutal events Congo Free State was a genocide. Unless one is provided I suggest that this section is removed. I did a search of the Internet and did not come across any such source. If someone has one please add it to the section. --Philip Baird Shearer 09:21, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi,

I looked in the belgian newspaper on the internet.

There are different sources that state that the population of Congo dropped from 20M to 10M under Leopold II but I don't know either any reliable source that states the events that lead to this were a genocide.

There has been recently a book published in the UK where the word "genocide" is used but not by a strong-enough source for wp (from my mind) and I found 1 website where they state there is a debate at the British Parliament to "condamn" this as a genocide.

I think too the section should be removed until the debate around *historians* about this period evolve... This should come within a few years.

Alithien 08:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Cambodia

The article states :

The Khmer Rouge, or more formally, the Communist Party of Kampuchea, led by Pol Pot, Ta Mok and other leaders, organized the mass killing of ideologically suspect groups, ethnic minorities like the ethnic Vietnamese, Chinese (or Sino-Khmers), Chams and Thais, former civil servants, former government soldiers, Buddhist monks, secular intellectuals and professionals, and former city dwellers. Khmer Rouge cadres defeated in factional struggles were also liquidated in purges. The number of the victims is estimated at approximately 1.7 million Cambodians between 1975-1979, including deaths from slave labour.

I (of course) don't deny this was a genocide but would not the source stating it was one be indicated and a reference given for these events ? Alithien 08:17, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

here is one form the United Human Right Council website : [18] (is it an offical organisation ?)
a reference book (I found on the web but never read) : [19] published in Yale University Press. The author seems reliable to me : [20]

Alithien 08:23, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Before 1500

see Talk:Genocides_in_history/Archive_3#Ancient/medieval genocides

I have removed the reinsertion of text, deleted in November, to the before 1500 section which does not have sources that claim the events were genocides. To include them without claims is Original research. --Philip Baird Shearer 08:57, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I would say the examples that remain are even worse. Moreover they don't even reflect what the cite (Adams) wrote. The examples remaining (eg melos) are not of genocide according to Adams, yet the ancient ones he does call genocides are excluded from the section as it stands. The earliest event Adams identifies and calls a genocide is that of the Amalekites. And in it he stands with the mainstream of others looking at the ancient phenomena. They are killed regardless of their status as non-combatants, age (the command is to kill every infants as well), or gender.

Yet in our wikipedia time line of genocide and alleged genocide the earliest mention is melos, which no scholar calls a genocide. During a war one force killed the military age men of the same ethnicity and belief system in another locale (ie they were not denigrated for their culture or ethnicity). Moreover we know that since Thucydides gives the number of total colonists (men women and children) as 500, the total number killed probably number around 150-200 people in total.

Yet removed over and over on these pages are much earlier much more clearly genocidal biblical actions such as against the Amalekites?

So long as it is sourced by a scholar as a genocide then it can be included but WP:OR is not considered acceptable in a Wikipedia article. --Philip Baird Shearer 09:42, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

If a single event before the enacting of the laws following WWII is included (eg anything not legally determined to be genocide) then one must go back to cultural sources that drive views of a massive chunk of humanity. (Let's be clear, this is not primarily about the Israelites actions, but about the God of Jews, Christians and Moslem's commanding genocide with language that debases and dehumanizes the victims in every sense -- something that is accepted as part of genocide theory and which did not occur on Melos.

One does not have to go back to "cultural sources" one goes back to scholarly sources that have looked at cultural sources and have decided that an historical event is genocide. Just because the crime of genocide did not exist before CPPCG, it does not mean that genocidal events did not take place. The definition of what constitutes a genocide and the crime of genocide are two different things. As the preamble to the CPPCG states that "at all periods of history genocide has inflicted great losses on humanity". --Philip Baird Shearer 09:42, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Last time I looked at these pages was over a year ago. Now looking at the history I can see the the biblical examples keep getting removed. This makes no sense. The actual adams cite in the article is talking about the Amalekites. The one he contends is genocide is removed an the ones he says are something else remain?!Dafen hf 06:17, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Soviet invasion of Afghanistan

I suggest this chapter to be removed or changed for two reasons: 1) The term "genocide" has been stretched to ridiculous extremes for political reasons, this one being a prime example. A chapter dealing with inappropriate use of "genocide" would be better, and this chapter could go there. 2) Soviet invasion of Afghanistan is just one example of an assymetric war with widespread disregard for human life. If Soviet invasion has to be included, USA invasion of Vietnam must be mentioned as well to keep NPOV as it is analagous in every way. The title has to reflect that broader aspect. - Pavel —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.246.151.140 (talk) 02:36, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

China

In the section China several mass killings are noted, but there does not seem to be a reliable source that claims they were genocides. If one can not be found this section should be deleted. --Philip Baird Shearer 10:53, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Tokugawa Japan

In the section Tokugawa Japan there does not seem to be a reliable source that claims they were genocide. If one can not be found this section should be deleted. --Philip Baird Shearer 11:04, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Iraq sanctions

Why aren't the Iraqi sanctions listed here? Isn't it the case that two UN Assistant SG's, Dennis Halliday and Hans von Sponeck, both resigned from their positions and denounced the sanctions as "genocide"? Gatoclass 21:14, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Dennis Halliday has called the sanctions genocide.[21][22] -- Why not write up a section? But a quick trawl of the Internet and I could not find an article that states that Hans von Sponeck used the term. BTW is Hans von Sponeck a relation of Hans Graf von Sponeck? --Philip Baird Shearer 22:51, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

And here is a POV for Dennis Halliday genocide comment

Some legal experts are sceptical about or even against using such terminology. “People who talk like that don’t know anything about law,” retorts Mario Bettati, who invented the notion of “the right of humanitarian intervention”. “The embargo has certainly affected the Iraqi people badly, but that’s not at all a crime against humanity or genocide.”[23]

--Philip Baird Shearer 23:00, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Iranian Yarsans (Ahl-i Haqq)

I am removing the new section "Iranian Yarsans (Ahl-i Haqq)" because no reliable source has been cited claiming that this was a genocide. I am also putting back the "Ottoman Empire (Turkey)" section deleted without an explanation. --Philip Baird Shearer 11:40, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

The Rape of Nanking

This incident, in which the Japanese Army in 1937 was released on the Chinese city of Nanking and directed to annihilate 300,000 Chinese civilians over the period of a few weeks, is considered a genocide. See Nanking Massacre article for sources.Jimhoward72 14:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

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