Talk:Garda Síochána

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Garda Síochána article.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.	Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Be welcoming	Article policies No original research Neutral point of view Verifiability

	Ireland Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Ireland on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, visit the project page.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the priority scale.

	Garda Síochána is within the scope of the Law Enforcement WikiProject. Please Join, Create, and Assess. Remember, the project aims for no vandalism and no conflict, if an article needs attention regarding vandalism or breaches of wikiquette, please add it to the article watch list.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.

Contents 1 Gardai failings 2 Article name 3 Requested move 3.1 Discussion 3.2 Decision 4 Ranks of the Gardaí 5 Garda Síochána Act, 2005 6 Badges of Other Police Services 7 Garda Failings Section 8 Caution 9 Badge 10 Bangharda 11 Ned Garvey 12 Coverage Map 13 English 14 Emergency Response Unit 15 Certain Comments 16 Really? 17 Table needs update 18 The push on Garvey 19 Removal of "trivial" sections 20 Garda Failings Section (revisited) 21 "No arrest" policy 22 Complaints to Ombudsman on Mayo strategy 23 Sections 24 Blanking 25 Current Controversy 26 Unarmed force 27 Extrajudicial punishment

[edit] Gardai failings

Heres some good links to update for the findings of the morris tribunal.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0715/morris.html

http://www.morristribunal.ie

I don't know enough about the case to update this page.

This page seems to put too much of emphasis on the failings of the gardai. Anybody got positive points to add?

New to Wikipedia and not sure how to select which section to comment on but I just changed some of the text regarding the Scott Medal. Previously it stated that Jerry McCabe was killed by the IRA while they were on ceasefire. It's a common mistake in the Irish media but it's also incorrect.McCabe was killed on June 7, 1996. The IRA ended the ceasefire it called in 1994 in February of 1996 with the attack on Canary Wharf. The ceasefire was not resumed until July 1997. It was in this intervening period when the IRA was not on ceasefire that McCabe was killed. 83.70.49.222 19:34, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure your sophistry makes you clever in your own opinion but a bunch of criminals killing police during a bank robbery has nothing to do with politics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.37.109 (talk) 20:46, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article name

This page was recently moved to Garda Síochána. An Garda Síochána is the more proper term (see website). The full form would be appropriate also. Do not move this page without discussion.

zoney ♣ talk 18:54, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I would support a move to Garda Síochána. The convention isn't to always use the full official name of things but rather a short, commonly used one. So for example we have European Convention on Human Rights rather than "Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms", Soviet Union instead of "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics", BBC instead of "British Broadcasting Corporation", etc.

The more important thing though is that it is convention not to include the definite article in a title. We don't have "The President of the United States" or "The" anything else so it shouldn't make a difference if the definite article happens to be in Irish. The official, formal way of referring to the guards is to use an as the definite article rather than the, but this doesn't mean you bolt on the definite article in circumstances when you wouldn't otherwise do. So my argument is this:

• An article title shouldnt begin with the definite article.
• An article title should not, anyway, always be the most formal, stuffy term.

Iota 19:32, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Agreed the use of the definite article is to be discouraged. Djegan 19:44, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It's not the easiest of cases this one. Usually I would favour leaving out the definite article in an article title, but since people talk (in English) about An Garda Síochána, leaving the Irish article in there as an integral part of the name, it would seem that the underlying grammatical reality that an just means "the" is best sacrificed to common usage in choosing where to put this article. However, people don't always say "An Garda Síochána" — plenty say "the Garda Síochána". Even their own website is inconsistent on this. From the welcome page: "Welcome to the Garda Síochána Website", "...all aspects of the Garda Síochána organisation." Then on the FAQ page we have: "There are 11,747 members of An Garda Síochána", but further down on the same page: "How do I join the Garda Síochána?" We also have an original quote from 1922 by the first Commissioner: "The Garda Síochána will succeed not by force of arms or numbers, but on their moral authority as servants of the people." It seems to me that while the definite article is often included, people don't stick to it rigidly, so as far as I am concerned it need not be considered an integral, unchanging part of the name. I'm marginally in favour of moving the page to Garda Síochána. — Trilobite (Talk) 21:54, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I too agree with moving the page. There's no reason to keep a definite article in the title. -- Necrothesp 01:26, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Is anyone going to object to renaming the article? If not I'll try and find an admin to do the move. Iota 17:53, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

• An Garda Síochána → Garda Síochána – "An" is just the definite article ("the") in Irish and shouldn't be included in the title. Seems to be a rough consensus at the moment. - Iota 03:37, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation and sign your vote with ~~~~

• Support Use of the definite article is unnecessary and not generally Wikipedia policy. Necrothesp 10:57, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Support move to Garda Síochána, definitive article should be avoided. Djegan 18:24, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. It isn't a rule that the definite article should be avoided. FearÉIREANN 21:23, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Weak support, as per comments below. Alai 23:52, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. It just sounds weird without the 'an'. If speaking in Irish, the definite article should most certainly be present. Maybe that's why I think it sounds funny in English - Pete C ^(talk) 14:20, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Support. See my comments above, and what others have said. — Trilobite (Talk) 17:49, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Voting closed

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

I believe a "user-level move" is possible, but perhaps it's better to wait and see who else rows in. I don't think the rules are exactly clear even for English language definite articles, so there's plenty of room for interpretation. I'd somewhat favour a move (back) to Garda Síochána, broadly. Alai 03:48, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Support a move to Garda Síochána. Use of the definite article is unnecessary and not generally Wikipedia policy. Admittedly, I'm English not Irish, but I've never heard the force referred to as anything other than "the Garda" anyway. -- Necrothesp 10:57, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I suspect the most common vernacular usage is "the G(u)ards", even. "An Garda Síochána" is not uncommon on RTE -- but equally, RTE is the type of broadcaster that likes to throw in the occasional phrase, sentence or paragraph of Irish pretty much out of any real context, so they're rather a usage law unto themselves. Alai 15:21, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Support move to Garda Síochána, definitive article should be avoided. Djegan 18:24, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Oppose. It isn't a rule that the definite article should be avoided. It is the unnecessary use of it. Ireland has a newspaper called the Irish Independent. However the is not part of the name, so the article is named Irish Independent. However the Irish Times has the definite article in its actual title. So it, correctly, is in as The Irish Times. The Guardian has the definite article in as part of the name of the paper, so it correctly is in as The Guardian, not the Guardian. Án Garda Síochána is the name, meaning The Civic Guards. It is part and parcel of the name. The collective group of individual policemen in the force is Gardaí. But the force as a unit is The Civic Guards/Án Garda Síochána. There is no special reason in this case to drop the definitive article when in plenty of articles here we haven't when the definitive article is part of the official title. FearÉIREANN 21:23, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In the title of a book or newspaper or film we would keep the definite article. They are a completely different case (we italicise them too - it's an accepted convention). The title of an organisation does not need it. Therefore it should not be included (and where it has been the article is usually moved to remove it - any articles that still have it have usually been missed). The use of definite articles in the official names of organisations is usually pretty random at best. Even the Garda themselves don't seem sure, if you look on their website. This is usually the case. If you think about it, most organisations appear sometimes with a capitalised definite article, and just as often without - it would just be silly if we kept all of them and it isn't done in any other encyclopaedia that I've ever seen. -- Necrothesp 23:07, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Note that titles of "works" (including newspapers) are a stated case in which the "the" is always retained, if part of the title proper. But organisations are much less clear cut, and "the precedents are mixed". There was considerable resistance to "The" Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who're a lot more consistent (indeed, insistent) on this than are The Guards. See the naming conventions. Alai 23:48, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have to say that Nec's arguments I find hilarious. The argument that we keep the definite article in newspapers and films but not in other things is mindbogglingly nonsensical. It implies that wikipedia believes that it should get newspaper and film titles accurate but insists it is OK to be inaccurate on topics. That is so absurd it is funny. It is also not wikipedia policy, as Alai correctly points out. Precedents are clearly mixed.

As to the reliance on websites - what is this strange idea by some on wikipedia that websites are a reliable source on anything. Some time ago there was a discussion over correct names on wikipedia for some prominent historical, political, sporting and religious figures. The mantra of 'but google says . . . ' was trotted out so a group of us checked out the names of 50 prominent figures with google searches and compared the results with objectively verifiable accurate sources. Of the 50, 47 were 'proven' by google searches to have names that are 100% wrong in reality. Among the names websites got wrong are the surname of the Prince of Wales, the full names and titles of his two sons, details on the presidents and prime ministers of Ireland, prime ministers Gladstone, Campbell-Bannerman and a host of others names of popes, names of members of world cup-winning teams, names of famous actors (and also, astonishingly even the name of a rather prominent film was shown in a later search to be spelt completely wrong all over the net!).

Many of the worst offenders were official websites. Buckingham Palace's website is littered with historic inaccuracies about royal history. The Vatican website got information about some popes wrong! The Irish government website famously last year got the name of who was the first Irish head of state wrong. One British police website misspelt the name of its own Chief Constable. A teaching union website spelt 'teacher' at one place as 'teachir'. An official website about the FA Cup some years ago got the date and location of the final wrong and spelt the name of three of the players incorrectly. The White House website was littered with inaccuracies - I got bored and gave up counting after finding 10 elementary ones. Frankly I take most things on the web with one helluva bucket of salt. Unlike hardcopy sources, most websites aren't proofread for factual accuracy, spelling, and many are frankly loopy. One guy in the last few days doctored a lot of wikipedia pages to claim that Ireland doesn't have four provinces!!! If other sites copied though wikipedia articles at a time that his garbage had been planted in, there could be 5, 10, 50 or god knows how many websites replicating his fiction as fact. If it get replicated enough of times, and people believe google searches then many people could end up being complete garbage about how many provinces Ireland has. So please! Come up with something more substantial than a gross misrepresentation of wikipedia policy on definite article use and utterly unreliable websites. FearÉIREANN 00:44, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Mindbogglingly nonsensical" or not (and I would say it was not at all nonsensical, but that's just my opinion), you will find it is almost invariably the case in encyclopaedias and other reference works and indexes that "works" keep their articles and other things do not, unless they are vital to the understanding. In this case, the definite article is not vital and should not be used. That of course is merely an opinion. I never stated it was any form of Wikipedia policy, and was therefore not "grossly misrepresenting" anything (and find it to be rather a strange accusation that I was). Neither did I say I placed any reliance on websites - I merely used the example to show that usage is very mixed. However, since this is a vote on whether we should move it or not, it's actually our opinions that count. -- Necrothesp 22:38, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Three points:

• The practice of leaving out the definite article in things other than 'works', as Necrothesp puts it, is a desirable one and followed almost universally. Jtdirl/FearÉIREANN suggests that leaving out the definite article is incorrect. My interpretation would be that in the many, many articles that omit a definite article where one might be included a reader would regard the definite article as implied.
• Convention is in any case to use the commonly used title, not the strictly correct one.
• The English definite article is more commonly used than the Irish one anyway. In official sources both definite articles are used. The 1923 law that established the force calls it "The Garda Siochana".

Iota 19:33, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Just to argue both ends... the gist of the rule of whether to include the definite article in the page name seems to more or less come down to "would it be capitalised in running text?" Doing a quick google for "an garda", there's plenty of instances of this being done. But that doesn't really speak to Iota's point as to whether it's even included consistently/commonly. Alai 03:43, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I am a disinterested party to this debate, I have never heard them called anything but the "Garda", I have tried to copy votes up to the vote section. If I have made a mistake please fix it so that the vote does not misreprsent the postions held. Philip Baird Shearer 13:42, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Decision

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. violet/riga (t) 20:16, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ranks of the Gardaí

The Garda Síochána Act, 1972 allows the government to make an order determining the ranks and maximum number of each such rank. The most recent is that of 2000[1] as far as I am aware. Prior to this the various acts where used to determine the ranks and number in a similar way, for instance[2] [3]. The lowest rank was "Guard" which now corresponds to "Garda", also of note is that the Gardaí had "Officer" and "Non-Commissioned/Men" divisions. The act of 1958 allowed the entry of women, but made no changes to rank structure. Djegan 20:49, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Garda Síochána Act, 2005

The Garda Síochána Act, 2005 will significantly amend the law regarding the gardai. For instance it will allow the creation of reserve members (which is causing some controversy), a code of ethics, revised complaint proceedures, also their is an declaration on appointment:

"I hereby solemnly and sincerely declare (before God) that—

• I will faithfully discharge the duties of a member of the Garda Sıochana with fairness, integrity, regard for human rights, diligence and impartiality, upholding the Constitution and the laws and according equal respect to all people,

• while I continue to be a member, I will to the best of my skill and knowledge discharge all my duties according to law, and

• I do not belong to, and will not while I remain a member form, belong to or subscribe to, any political party or secret society whatsoever."

Many of the previous acts are being repealed, and indeed this act in many ways is simply a restatement of the law. Statutory instruments will remain in force until revoked.

Djegan 22:10, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Badges of Other Police Services

I think badges of previous All-Irish and Northern Irish police services should be in another article as they are not pertinent to the Garda. Jm butler 21:17, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

agreed - they are irrelevant to this article 213.202.134.172 10:49, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Garda Failings Section

The Gardai article in general needs a bit of work.

The Garda failings placement in section is questionable as no other Police or Law enforcment article has a similar list of failings. It reads like Joe Duffy radio broadcast! I may make a bold move and remove it to another article entirely. Any thoughts?

Conor 13:51, 23 January 2006 (UTC) (Forgot to Sign in)

I agree the article requires work to give it a more unified structure, the iterative process of editing on wikipedia does have its drawbacks.

Regarding the failings of the force, this would have to be approached with caution. Removal altogether may look like intolerable censorship, whilst a new article may only underline the issues to thye extreme or risk sounding like a series of crackpot conspiracy theories that can be all to evident against other similar organisations (but an appropriate article on each scandal maybe appropriate to deal with them properly).

Ultimately all police forces have their good and bad days and generally the gardai have served the state, and its people, well.

Djegan 19:26, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

The issue is not censorship, it is providing a balanced article. I think this article shoud aspire to be more consistant with other police articles on Wikipedia.

See the following for more details.

Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Police in France

Police system of Japan

British police

I feel there is an over emphasis on the failings section. For a police force that been in existence such a relatively short time there is too much text (a full quarter) on very recent scandals. The much larger British policing article does not grant as much space to its controversial shootings section, arguably a much more important policing issue. Indeed that is the only other Policing article I have found that has a similar section.

For the sake of uniformity and a more balanced article the failings section should removed, given a seperate article or reduced dramatically.

Comments?

Conor 11:59, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I am not against removal as such, but removal may require some additional subsiduary articles; this would be best implemented on each significant scandal or failing rather than a single over arching article? Certainly other wikipedians may have other ideas and their response would be useful here. Djegan 18:57, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Other police articles on Wikipedia do include sections with names like 'crticism' and 'controversy'.

Drug Enforcement Agency

Federal Bureau of Investigation

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Policing in the United Kingdom

I'm not sure about the section title. Allegations are unproven statements. Unproven statements should not be included in Wikipedia just the facts. This section is a bit messy. If you think about the factual negatives around the gardai, they can be categorised under mistakes, conspiracy and organisational problems. Mistakes would include the many famous crime scenes they failed to preserve like sophie du plantier where they allowed their main suspect to leave prints on everything instead of sealing off the scene(do they not watch crime shows on TV?), screw ups with warrants such as the judge curtin case and the Dermot Laide mistrial, that case where two sets of cops showed up at a bank robbery and opened fire on each other etc etc. Conspiracy would cover cases like McBrearty and the grangegorman murders frame-up. Organisational problems owuld include the time they went on strike by all ringing in sick on the same day. Also in here would be the failure of the PULSE and penalty points systems.

Also we need a section on the new volunteer force. Curtains99 00:21, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I Agree, the other entries for Police Forces around the world don't seem to concentrate on failings. I would suggest that in the interest of fairness, this section be removed. (Sam, UK)

i agree i feel that the section of the abbylara shooting fails to display a neutral point of view in suggesting there is a shoot to kill policy. even the barr tribunal didn't suggest this!~~

i agree that there is an over-emphasis on the gardai's failings.MANY new changes have been/are being implemented,so rather than looking at the negatives,focus on the positives of the force!-AS

[edit] Caution

Not too sure how to place this in the text, but the caution used by the Gardai is defined by the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1997 (Section 6) Regulations, 1997:

"You are not obliged to say anything unless you wish to do so, but whatever you say will be taken down in writing and may be given in evidence."

Djegan 23:35, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

The caution as worded above comes from The Judges Rules which are a set of guidelines issued by judges in the early part of the 20th century. It is not listed in any law. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.71.24.101 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Badge

According to the official Garda website they dont have a badge,so why is there one here? Sgt baker 18:45, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

That is interesting. Per the Garda.ie FAQ [4]:

The uniform of the Garda Siochana does not have badges and patches like other Police forces. Accordingly badges and patches are not available from the webmaster.

However, the term "Garda Badge" in the context of the article refers (not to the cloth badge as such), but to the emblem displayed on the flash. Further, though the garda FAQ does not refer to it directly, the Gardaí do wear metal badges on their caps [5]. I think what we have here is simply a definition issue between the term "badge" (refering to cloth representation of the emblem) and the "emblem" itself. ("Garda Badge" is often used to describe the emblem/symbol. See History of The Garda Badge.) Guliolopez 18:30, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bangharda

In the Terminology section, it states that bangharda is not used much anymore; garda or guard being preferred. I have found the opposite to be true and woman officers always being referred to as bangharda. -Etienne 02:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Colloquilly maybe but not officially. All guards are guards. Bangarda is sometimes used in conversation, like fireman instead of fire-fighter, but now only a knickname.Afn 17:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

• It's kinda been deprecated. The official term is 'garda', these days, regardless of gender - Alison^✍ 18:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ned Garvey

The article says the following: 'Edmund Garvey Sept 1975 Jan 1978 replaced unfair dismissal'. Can anybody elaborate on this? Is it coincidental that Fianna Fáil had recently returned to government? Just why did Fianna Fáil make an election pledge to remove that particular individual when they returned to office? I cannot imagine Ahern make such a promise about Noel Conroy today. Why is it so hard to find online the reasons for his dismissal? The story in newspapers some years ago was that he was in the pay of British Intelligence. In particular, Liz Walsh, writing in Magill, did an exposé on him in the April 1999 issue covering the death of Séamus Ludlow. There was an interview with Fred Holroyd in it where Holroyd said, "Garvey knew the information he was giving me was going back to MI6 because he was aware that I was a conduit for that organization. At one of the meetings he handed me photographs of 200 republicans from the IRA and INLA to take back." The web has an abundance of allegations all of which have the same end: that Ned Garvey was in the pay of British intelligence. Here are some of them: http://www.villagemagazine.ie/article.asp?sid=1&sud=41&aid=790; http://www.relativesforjustice.com/publications/monaghan.htm; http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=62498&comment_order=asc&save_prefs=true&fontsizeinc=2; Thu, Aug 14 2003 'Troubling questions to be raised on Dublin bombing' ['Ned Garvey, who was sacked in 1979 by Jack Lynch for reasons that have never been explained, although speculation exists that Lynch believed Garvey had close links with MI5 since 1974'] ('Southern Star' on Unison website). El Gringo 21:01, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Regarding allegations against Garvey: Of the 3 links you have provided which you claim illustrate that "the web has an abundance of allegations all of which have the same end: that Ned Garvey was in the pay of British intelligence", the first two links don't even mention Garvey at all (anywhere!). The third link leads to an indymedia article, followed by public comments. The article doesn't even mention Garvey. And of the 75 comments from the public, only one of them mentions Garvey. This comment comes from a person who, in the same post, claims that the British and Irish governments carried out the Dublin & Monaghan bombings!

There has never been any evidence produced anywhere (that I am aware of) to suggest that Garvey was "in the pay of British intelligence", as you put it. Wikipedia is not a forum for entertaining gossip. Wikipedia deals in factual information that can be verified from independent external sources. Until some evidence of this serious allegation can be provided, I believe that this section of the discussion should be removed as it amounts to little more than a serious slur on the intergrity and character of a dead man. It is effectively an accusation of treason, which I'm sure you'd agree is about as serious an allegation as there is.192.122.219.10 21:50, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Strange I found mention of Ned Garvey though not mentioning the allegation within about 5 minutes ( and that includes time to scan the article for his name ) on both of those first 2 links . Garda40 22:49, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree that these contentions amount to little more than gossip until some form of quantifiable evidence can be produced to substantiate the claims. I also found no mention of the former commissioner in the first two links that supposedly indicate he was in the pay of British intelligence. The first of those links just redirects to the Village Magazine homepage; I couldn't find any mention in the second link (after ~10 minutes of searching) either & the third link is merely an internet chat forum - hardly wikipedia standard evidence. Not even the lamentable Gardaí would accept this as a reliable source!

Both links appear to have reorganised their pages since this was last brought up in september 2007.However I did find mention on the Village website here and here of Ned Garvey .The second link is actually the one that mentions the allegation though it is an edited version of an indymedia report which The Village accepted as reliable .Garda40 (talk) 20:50, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Coverage Map

The coverage map in the infobox seems a little confusing to me. Yes I know it covers the Republic of Ireland, but having Northern Ireland on there as another shade of green seems potentially confusing. Maybe it would be better if Northern Ireland was coloured in a shade of light grey as seems standard for geographical maps of this sort. Ben W Bell talk 11:00, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Image:GardaSíochána.PNG part of a series Category:British police maps with a consistent design style. Totally inappropriate for this article, of course. A modified Image:Ei-map.svg with just colour, no symbols or text, would be better: if we need such a map at all? jnestorius^(talk) 00:30, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

No arbitrary cities or towns anyway - as its just pov. How about a map showing the regions (as in the article in "Terminology" section), if a good one could be found. Djegan 15:52, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I made a slight change to this and the PSNI map, didn't notice this discussion at the time. In passing I found that the two shades of green didn't any part distinctive. So I substituted the dark green for a light gray. Hope no one minds.  Keithology  Talk  14:35, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] English

As the "correct" English translation ("Peace Guard of Ireland") is not commonly used, indeed it could be original research, I think it should be a footnote if anything and that the common, but apparently mistranslated "The Guardians of the Peace of Ireland" should be in the main body as it can be widely cited irrespective of correctness. Translation is not a science and often their is variance between languages and direct translation is not always appropriate unless a footnote or a trivial. Djegan 00:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

In one sense "guardian" is altra, the same word as "nurse". Niall Ó Donaill's dictionary translates garda as "guard" and Garda Síochána as "Civic Guard". Similar issues with Sinn Féin (19th century) and "ourselves alone": a lot of people say it, so it must be mentioned, but not condoned. I don't mind how the information is arranged as long as people are not misled into thinking "Guardians of the Peace" is correct, rather than twee Oirishry. jnestorius^(talk) 00:22, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Abbeylara A crazed gunman is shot down by police after refusing to surrender a loaded weapon he is pointing at people. This would make a four line box in page 27 of a French, German or American(or any where else) newspaper. Here the gunman becomes victim/hero/martyr and the centre of news of five years. If having being examined by Doctors and Psychiatrists he was unwell to the extent that he may have harmed himself and others (beyond his control) they should, one would assume, instituitionalise him for his and others safety. If he was not unwell in this way, then he was in control of his actions and acting out of pique, self pity and or pure badness when he started taking potshots at people. Being without a cigarette notwithstanding. The by now to be expected inaccurate, incompetent unilateral conclusions of a failed solicitor led to the inevitable spate of copy cat loosers holing up for sieges to work off some rage against the machine.

Sallins It should be noted that the INLA did carry out a robbery on this train. This organisation is explicitly committed to the overthrow of the Republic of Ireland. Whilst there may not be evidence sufficient in a criminal case to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that certain persons were responsible that does not mean that they were not in fact involved.

Morris A small number of Officers involved none of whom were dealt with by the ineffectual tribunal process which resorted to blackening the name of an entire organisation and its members as a means to smokescreen its irrelevance and impotency.

[edit] Emergency Response Unit

Why does the link for the Emergency Response Unit lead to the SWAT page?

We used to have a separate page or the ERU did we now?

fixed! - Alison^☺ 21:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! --Greg Moroney 14:33, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Certain Comments

I did think of blanking all the comments which incidentlly are in the wrong section but settled for the "bits and pieces" which are most potentially libelous so that it couldn't be said I was trying to cover up any rebuttal against the complainers .

However I'm not going to get into a revert war and so if you think they are okay I will not touch them again .

Incidently despite my name I have no connection with THE GARDA .Garda40 10:39, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Really?

"Guard" is the most common form of address used by members of the public speaking to a garda on duty.

I'd love to know what second and third are. 83.70.248.72 00:12, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Table needs update

Can someone check on the table figures which I updated today. There seems to be a conflict on numbers. (Chief Superintendents = 47) V (Chief Superintendents = 25). Gold♥ 14:54, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The push on Garvey

Gulio, I read it in Frank Dunlop's Yes, Taoiseach. According to him, Guards were complaining to their TDs, who passed it up to Jack Lynch.

Lapsed Pacifist 11:09, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of "trivial" sections

An anonymous user removed sections that may portray the subject of the article in a bad light. However, these sections had citations. I was wondering if perhaps these sections should be replaced. Lenore Schwartz 16:26, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I restored them as I explained in the edit summary (instances of possible wrongdoing are hardly trivial) and as you pointed out they had citations plus they where in a section that pointed out there may be POV issues .Garda40 17:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

"Instances of possible wrongdoing" of the type I had deleted (e.g. single, isolated cases of Garda misdemeanours) are, as I explained, pretty trivial in the context of what is supposed to be a concise and disinterested encyclopedia article. Otherwise, if each incident is so important, shouldn't you go the whole hog and list every single incident of Garda wrongdoing that ever occurred? Such occasional one-off incidents happen in the most well-disciplined police forces and are not in themselves of any particular significance (unlike say, the events in Donegal, which suggested a widespread, systematic disciplinary malaise in the Force, at least in that particular garda division).

Insisting on the inclusion of such isolated incidents - each with their own headline, if you don't mind ("e.g. "drinking on the job") - smacks of pettiness and partiality. But I won't bother changing it back, as I've found that there's little point in trying to ensure balance and neutrality on Wikipedia when others are so determined to impose their own agenda. 137.191.225.226 17:12, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I happen to agree. There is disproportionate focus in this article on "wrong doing" in general, and isolated cases of "wrong-doing" in particular. Per WP:NOT#INFO, "merely being true does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion". And so, per Anon above, while these items remain factual, their importance in the context of the broader subject is minimal. (That ONE Garda stole fines is not indicative - on it's own - of a broader trend at a higher level.) I will therefore (and under Per WP:NOT#INFO) be moving these individual "small scale" issues under a "general" heading. From there, I will be working on SUMMARISING the wider allegations section. This will be done - not for the purposes of "hiding" or "removing" anything - but because a well editted article in this area will be an improvement. This "dump any and all information from news websites, and make the reader filter through it" does not make for a good Wikipedia article. (Certainly not one with aspirations for WP:FA status at any rate.) Guliolopez 17:45, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Garda Failings Section (revisited)

As noted above, and previously, the "Allegations against An Garda Síochána" section needs some clean-up. I have made a first stab - on my own sandbox.

Word-counters may note that I haven't (at this stage) removed any content. I have just tried to apply some structure to the mish-mash of "allegations" - including consolidation under relevant sections. (All allegations were previously included under their own headings - which made for "clumsy" reading.)

I would welcome any and all comments before considering merging this back to the main article. Guliolopez 19:17, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Well I have no problem with the way you have rewritten the material and agree it does read better now .Garda40 20:11, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

The Gardai failings section is overwhelming and excessive - it needs intensive trimming. Too much of it is about problems that faced society at large (e.g. historic ideas on sexuality that wider society reflected - or government ignored), whilst other mentions are too political or too obscure, for instance political protests and paramilitary collusions. Its not to say that these issues are not deserving of a mention in wikipedia, but an article on the gardai should not be a one-stop-shop of cultural, political or societal failures. Either it should be verifiable, by means of references if need be, that the gardai were at significant fault or sections should be removed on masse. Djegan 23:52, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry can't agree with you there .These are all verifiable and referenced incidents not just petty criticism of the Garda because "I hate the Gardai" . For one thing how do you define significant ? Is Nicky Kelly significant ? Is Barr significant ?

For whatever reason these incidents might have arisen whether it was cultural, political or societal these type of problems had been faced before in other forces such as The Met and dealt with so it is valid to mention them as criticism since Garda management can't say this has never happened before anywhere .Garda40 00:51, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Then be my guest and verify and reference the entire section adequately - its poorly referenced by any means at the moment. Remember the onus is on the individual seeking to retain material to provide authoritive references, not on those who wish to remove; re WP:VERIFY. Djegan 13:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Garda, what you say makes far more sense.

Lapsed Pacifist 07:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

OK - So it looks like there are no major objections (or suggested changes) to the proposed "categorisation" approach to tidying up the "controversy"/"allegations" section. Obviously, there is still an open issue about what is or isn't either appropriate for inclusion (under NN and VER). However, my proposed changes don't remove anything (and so don't affect this). And so I'm gonna go ahead and make the change (unless there's any last minute objection).

Once the content "tidy" is complete - we can continue the "what to include or exclude" discussion (without the additional complexity of "how to include it" hanging overhead). Guliolopez 14:48, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Have made the changes as discussed above, and included the (recently added) "turban" item. While I think this improves the readability and adds the needed structure to help the reader, the section remains a little long overall. In particular the Morris and Barr content could be summarised, as much of it is dupe with the content from the relevant articles themselves. In the longer term, I think the section (and the related "Garda reform initiatives" section) could do with additional summarisation and restructure to show the affect of these events on the force's structure and operation (All the actual "ins and outs" of the events can be left to the "main articles", or the "references"). In short: Some well exercised editting is required here overall. Guliolopez 21:37, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "No arrest" policy

"There were no arrests. That was part of our strategy: we did not want to facilitate anyone down there with a route to martyrdom. That has been the policy ever since." Superintendent Joseph Gannon, Garda Review, Winter edition, 2006 [6].

This is an unprecedented and very political strategy to come up with and maintain for months on end in the face of hundreds of offences. Michael McDowell was never in the habit of delegating these kinds of decisions.

Lapsed Pacifist 16:06, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Complaints to Ombudsman on Mayo strategy

Twenty complaints solely from Shell to Sea on the very first day the Commission opens [7]. Most of those were from Dublin-based campaigners. The Ombudsman's team travelled to Mayo to hear the rest. They stayed for days on end, on at least two different occasions. They're still not finished. Lapsed Pacifist 16:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sections

I have moved the information which was present in this article after the "Garda Air Support Unit", to the newly created article - Garda Air Support Unit --Greg Moroney (talk) 15:19, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Blanking

User:Twinytwo - please stop blanking sections of this article. It is vandalism. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 16:16, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Current Controversy

How is the shell to sea ordeal the current controversy as there are more recent incidences than this.User_talk:Shambosse 13:30, 18 march 2008

[edit] Unarmed force

I added a citation needed to the claim that all gardai are trained in the use of firearms. I know several members of the force who would claim to know fairly little about the use of guns. The Garda college training page http://www.garda.ie/col/student.html seems to suggest that they are only trained in Firearms legislation and firearms awareness. Also, the same paragraph refers to "a recent report" without giving details.

Minion-for-hire (talk) 11:26, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Extrajudicial punishment

Re. the above term being repeatedly inserted into the section on Shell-to-sea, both myself and Guliolopez have removed it repeatedly now as we both believe it to be rather obvious POV and OR. Can we please discuss this further here before this turns into a full-on edit-war? Right now, the article is back where it was, but please - there's no evidence that these actions are "punishment" nor are they "extrajudicial" given that the Gardaí are operating within the sanction of the State and are using what would be considered "reasonable force" under the law. YMMV on the latter point, of course. But please, we need to be factual and neutral here and putting the Shell-to-Sea thing into the same category as NKVD troika can be offensive in the extreme to many - Alison ^❤ 17:52, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

"...operating within the sanction of the State..." is a phrase I'm not sure I entirely understand. My contention is that the Gardaí have agreed to circumvent the judicial process by using force, and where necessary, violence, in order to dampen the negative publicity surrounding the Corrib gas project. I'm satisfied that this circumvention can't help but fall under the definition of extrajudicial, and is illegal. As their superiors have agreed to avoid normal due process, ordinary Gardaí now find themselves in the unenviable position of acting as judge and jury, deciding on the punishment protesters should receive, and then carrying it out. To their credit, many Gardaí have refused to do this, but then there's the rest, eager for promotion and often stinking of alcohol. As for "reasonable force", that's just plain wrongheaded. Batonning unarmed people when there is no threat to either themselves or others? If you haven't already, please see Youtube clip, Report from Global Community Monitor, More4 documentary, Batons out on Youtube. The list goes on, and is likely to increase if they try to force the pipeline through again. Now please explain to me Alison, how is this not extrajudicial punishment, and where in that article is such punishment defined as solely being of the scale you refer to?

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 06:50, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

If you have legal concerns regarding the Gardaí Síochána, you really need to address it using a legal platform. Failing that, what you're stating here is simply your point of view and that will simply not work here. It's the classic wiki definition of POV, plain and simple, nor is it our job to judge the Gardaí in the carrying out of their duties. Facts, please - not speculation. Right now, you made the explicit comment that illegal activities have taken place. This is strong stuff indeed, and such allegations, esp. presented as "fact" as you did, have no place on Wikipedia. In fact, there may be legal ramifications, especially since individuals have been identified in photographs here - Alison ^❤ 06:58, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not judging the Garda's activities, I'm describing them. There's a world of difference. I don't believe you've read the GCM report in 8 minutes, let alone watched the clips of the violence. I recommend you begin with the More4 documentary, as it's the most professional. Everything I've written here I can back up. Your POV seems to be that the Gardaí are acting legally and within reason. If you can back that up, please do so. You have failed absolutely to argue even remotely convincingly that the Gardaí's Mayo strategy does not come under the definition of extrajudicial punishment, or to rebut any of the arguments I made above.

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 07:14, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, no actually. You've made the accusation of illegal activity, you back up the claim. Innocent until proven guilty, it's that simple and applies to the Gardaí just as any other person. You're not backing anything up here, to be honest, and the onus is certainly not on me to prove their innocence. Absolutely not. Like I said, it's POV, it's baseless accusations of criminal acts and it doesn't belong here. I note you brushed over the "legal ramifications" part, too, and I've not even got to the whole realm of personality rights yet - Alison ^❤ 07:26, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

It sounds wonderful, Alison, but you're not addressing any of the arguments I'm compelled to keep making. Like I wrote on Gulio's talk page, the Gardaí have certain rights, including arrest, detention and the ability to charge lawbreakers. Corporal punishment does not fall under this, and is a direct result of the "no-arrest policy" (see the link to the excerpt from the Garda Review in the article) that governs Shell to Sea protests, whether in Mayo or elsewhere. Both the punishment and the policy are illegal, in my opinion, but I have not written this in the article. I have confined myself to describing it for what it is, extrajudicial punishment. I'd be interested in your opinion of the links I gave. Answer me this at least; how does circumventing the judiciary (and then discussing this in a published in-house interview) not fall under the definition of extrajudicial?

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 07:48, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Indeed it is wonderful, however you've ignored everything I've said. Try again? Nor, indeed are you quoting reliable nor verifiable sources; YouTube, various blogs and, unfortunately, IndyMedia won't do. You already know WP:RS and WP:V, I'm sure. Like I said, they are using what would be considered "reasonable force" under the law. Indeed, the scan of Garda Review does not back up your opinion at all; in fact, it contradicts it! Where's the reliable source for corporal punishment being used? All I'm seeing is Gardaí moving protestors to allow the workers access while not making arrests (the "martyrs" comment). Etc etc. You've failed to 1) provide reliable evidence of corporal punishment, sanctioned or no, nor 2) a link from this alleged activity to the no arrests "policy" you cite from Garda Review. Is this the bit where I'm supposed to give up in disgust? - Alison ^❤ 08:14, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Hang on a minute. This IndyMedia link which is used as a reference to the Shell to Sea controversy on the article page, contains this image ... which is identical to this image on Commons that *you* uploaded to enwiki and released under the GFDL. Even the names are identical. Question: did you write the IndyMedia article that's referenced there. You certainly claim ownership for their images. Something doesn't add up here at all - Alison ^❤ 08:23, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the relevance of your last question, and I remind you I have an entitlement to anonymity. You don't believe a More4 documentary is a reliable source? You're a hard woman to please. I didn't refer to indymedia or any blog above, please look again. You claim that the Gardaí are using "reasonable force", can you back this up, perhaps with the Garda's or state's own definition? I'm afraid yours won't suffice in this instance. The superintendent admits in the article that there is a policy of not arresting protesters. This denies them due process and circumvents the judicial system. Therefore, the vast majority of protesters do not face the threat of a fine, or a jail sentence, or a criminal record. There's a different punishment in store. How beating people in order to discourage them from protesting is not a punishment escapes me, as a quick read of the first lines of punishment indicates it is exactly that. Punishment that involves violence is known as corporal punishment, Alison. I've another question for you; how many options are left to Gardaí when their power of arrest is denied them by their superiors? It's funny you should mention disgust. Cosmic, in fact.

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 08:39, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm off to bed here. It's 2am. Please note that anonymity is balanced by conflicts of interest and that if you have one, you need to declare it. Now, please explain the ownership of the pictures and what their source is, otherwise I will have to tag/delete them as copyvios. You claim they're yours but IndyMedia is also using them. Why? - Alison ^❤ 08:48, 30 May 2008 (UTC) (more later on the other points)

I'm involved with the campaign. A lot of the pictures I took myself, those that I didn't I have been given permission to use here. Their use here does not preclude their use on indymedia, in fact quite the opposite. I'm happy to wait for the rest of your reply.

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 08:58, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

But not forever. It's been four days, and you've made well over 100 edits elsewhere in the meantime.

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 22:21, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Please wait some more, as I'm working on it. Silence does not imply assent - Alison ^❤ 22:22, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Silence, in general, does not necessarily imply assent. Your silence may be different.

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 22:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

It's been eight days, you've made over 200 edits elsewhere without getting back to me as you said you would, so I'm reverting. You seem to be confusing the definition of extrajudicial punishment with that article's content, which focuses on extreme extrajudicial punishment. We should probably have an extrajudicial force article as well. Extrajudicial arrest redirects to extrajudicial punishment, which it shouldn't. The problems lie there, not here.

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 19:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Please refrain from entering POV and OR - just because your frothing at the mouth at the thought of capitalism and policing in Ireland it does not mean your exempt from official policy! Djegan (talk) 22:53, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem actually lies with your POV, your extreme conflict of interests and your bringing of an off-wiki battle to Wikipedia. Honestly, we're only interested in facts, and stated from a neutral point of view - something you've not been doing. Someone else has already reverted back to the NPOV version - Alison ^❤ 23:25, 7 June 2008 (UTC)