Talk:G. I. Gurdjieff

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[edit] Some suggestions for content

I've just reviewed this page and came up with a number of suggestions for content. I thought I would post them here in a series of bullets -- assuming I can figure out how to make them -- and if editors are cool with it, I think I could put in some work on them next week.

• Fourth Way versus Gurdjieff Work. I don't think the highlighting of the term Fourth Way as opposed to Gurdjieff Work is historically appropriate. Gurdjieff only used that term very early and sources don't mention it after he left Russia. By the time of the talk replicated verbatim by Stanley Nott in "Teachings" which represents the 20s, or the talk "From the Author" in Beelzebub, the term is no longer being used. Nor is the term present in the rest of All and Everything. The term Fourth Way is really better associated with Ouspensky, who made the concept central to his teaching to the end of his life. I propose changing the relevant passage in the topic sentence to "Gurdjieff Work or Fourth Way", and perhaps opening the section on ideas/teachings with a brief paragraph on nomenclature that mentions the different ways Gurdjieff referred to his teaching.

Beautifully said. Aeuio 17:28, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

• Teachings - I have two proposals for this section. First, Gurdjieff is I think as noteworthy for the plurality of his offerings as their content. Gurdjieff brought music, movements, exercises, and methods for group work as well as ideas, and based on memoirs of his students, it's not clear he privileged the ideas above the rest. So I wonder if a category like "The Gurdjieff Work"(?) isn't more appropriate. If desired, a separate "ideas" section could sit next to a section that enumerated the various Gurdjieff materials.
• Components of the work - I would divide the Gurdjieff materials into the following categories: Group Work, Writings, Movements, and Music. Music falls into three broad historical periods, only one of which involves de Hartmann, and I'd be happy to enumerate those in an edit. Movements perhaps fall best into four categories: the Obligatories, the 39, the ethnic dances and the rest, and perhaps each of those warrants a sentence. Writings would list the early writings, pupil notes including "In search", meeting transcripts and talks collected after Gurdjieff's death, and of course the privileged role of All and Everything. Group work, if other editors agree it's worth a header of its own, could list the innovative ways Gurdjieff brought people together: weekends and work periods of intensive labor, group meetings, discussions, performances and elaborate meals. I think he did that innovatively so it's worth including in the entry but other editors may feel differently.
• The ideas themselves - the "teachings" section is a bit of a hodgepodge. I might structure the most salient Gurdjieff ideas into the following small categories: "Sleep, Self-Observation & Self Remembering"; "Struggle, Friction and Effort"; "Groups and Schools"; "Centers and Functions"; "Metaphysics" e.g. law of 3 and 7;, and "Cosmology". I throw it open to the editors if this is a good way to break it down, how long it should be, and how to organize it. I would be happy to write up this copy if I have a chance next week.
• Sourcing the Gurdjieff ideas - I have a recommendation for sourcing. The standard sources are often "In Search of the Miraculous" and "Beelzebub's Tales". However, neither of these is really optimal. While Gurdjieff accepted Ouspensky's book, he was equivocal on many things and it bears a lot of Ouspensky's footprint. Beelzebub on the other hand is literary allegory. I think better sources for the Gurdjieff ideas are collected talks, like the "From the Author" in Beelzebub, the talks in the Third Series, the Orage talk in Stanley Nott's book, the collection "Views from the Real World", and the wartime meetings in "Voices in the Dark". If other editors are interested I can try to source a section on the ideas based primarily on those records of what Gurdjieff actually said.

I would object here with this sourcing. Many accounts of Gurdjieff teaching are from personal lectures which Gurdjieff taught to individual students or groups. His teaching may differ as presented by him from student to student, as he might have altered it to suit a specific group. But Belzeebub's tales was Gurdjieff putting his ideas for the public and everyone in general. It would therefore be a lot more reasonable to use BT as a primary source for Gurdjieff's teaching, and other accounts as back up and for diversity of the teaching. MoonEagle 22:33, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

• Criticism - this seems really written off the cuff. Good sources would be the "Forest Philosophers" article that brought Gurdjieff notoriety in Paris, as well as the media hullaballoo accompanying the death of Katherine Mansfield. James Webb's biography also ends with an exceedingly negative take on Gurdjieff and his students.
• Reception - Gurdjieff's ideas have propagated in a lot of different ways that I think warrant interest. Some things that could be included include the new biographies of Licoln Kirstein, head of the School of American Ballet, and architect Frank Lloyd Wright, both of whom had extensive involvement with Gurdjieff and the work. Authentic or not, the many colorful claims made by people after Gurdjieff who claimed to be in touch with his sources are also part of his legacy, like Collin and Ichazo.
• Last, the history strikes me as out of balance. Gurdjieff as a spy or watching the dervishes are both factual but don't strike me as significant in the broader arc. If we keep it bare-bones I'm not sure they should be in there. If editors are interested in a little more detail, I would add other details instead and would be happy to offer suggestions.

Sorry this is so long, but I just had a rush of ideas on this page for some reason and I hope you like them. Ericbarnhill 16:14, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Pretty good suggestions - I agree with all of it and I think that it would make a better page. (the first bullet was the best). Aeuio 17:28, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I started some editing and I thought I'd have more time, but I got to go (I'll continue tomorrow). Sorry to leave the article in this situation - Eric please continue what I started as soon as you can. I deleted some repeated info so that you can add some new ones Aeuio 02:46, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Make sure that its clear that his teachings were all based around the "spiritual teachings" - he didn't teach sacred dances for the purpose of dancing. MoonEagle 12:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Aeuio, I said next week and I meant it! :) I won't have time to do a worthwhile job with much of this until a week from now. Editors uncomfortable with the floating headings should just cut them for now. MoonEagle, neither I nor any other editor should be having a discussion about Gurdjieff's "purposes", to use your word. This is an encyclopedia talk page not a discussion forum. Our job should be to enumerate what Gurdjieff did as sourced on the historical record not speculate about his purposes. Your vague objection to something that hasn't happened yet makes me nervous. Thanks for contributing and I hope you'll continue to give your opinion as we add some content. Ericbarnhill 19:08, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, the best I can do is ten minutes here and there so I will leave it till I have more time. Aeuio 19:31, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Eric: I wasn't trying to discuss anything, I was just stating that be very wrong if the Dances or Music are presented independently from the spiritual teachings, as if there wasn't much connection with them. But as you said it's too early to comment on this (but currently that's where your sugggestions lead up to) - anyhow, we'll see when it's written. MoonEagle 00:27, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

My comment to you was inappropriately aggresive. Apologies and I will bow out of posting here until I have the time to think about what I'm writing before posting. Thanks for the feedback and your opinions on the section will be welcome when I add it. Ericbarnhill 00:57, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New content

I added some new content. Have at it. :) Ericbarnhill 18:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I finally fully read this and can surely say that this will turn out a lot better. I'll be back later tonight to edit Gurdjieff article again. Thanks Eric Aeuio 21:54, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History

Since we are rewritting here, how about changing the "travelling dated history" to a more general history where it is explained where and when Gurdjieff met different pupils and what happened. That gurdjieff.org source up there is more than enough for this kind of change. I think it be better and more interesting than simply saying where he was and when. MoonEagle 22:27, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Good point, I expanded a bit - and it already sounds somewhat better and more interesting. Aeuio 11:36, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

This is looking much better! Verbs should all be the same tense though. I am sorting out my thoughts on the "ideas" section but will notify editors about a draft before any editing. One problem is how much overlap to have with the Fourth Way page. The same question arises for Beelzebub's Tales - how much to put on this page and how much to put on the other page. Ericbarnhill 02:02, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that here there should be an overview of the info from other main page - such as the Fourth Way. Concerning BT, it's too soon to tell how this will turn out. Aeuio 02:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

O and the page is getting much better!Aeuio 02:54, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I see these two concerns as related. I think it would be great to have an "ideas" section that references Beelzebub frequently, and leave the Ouspensky quotes more for the other page. I'll try to put that into my draft when I get to it. Ericbarnhill 21:38, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Templates

Ok, we have the artist template (currently in the article) and the philosophy template. Is there anyone that prefers one over the other? Aeuio 12:14, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

There is Religious leaders as well (not very suitable in my view). The main drawback of the Philosopher template is that you have to assign a region, and only four are available: Eastern, Jewish, Persian and Western. Since this is the top field, it looks odd if you leave that blank. Now Gurdjieff is difficult to assign; his mentions of Nassr Eddin (= Mullah Nasrudin) and Bogga Eddin (= Baha'uddin Naqshband) would suggest Persian (= sufic), but then he is also distinctly Western in his terminology. He mentions Christian sources as much as Indian fakirs etc. So I would be unhappy to see him restricted to any one regional category. To me, that is the main drawback of the Philosopher template; otherwise, it looks ideal. Perhaps we should take it up with the makers of that template? Jayen466 13:11, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

The link to the religious leaders template above was wrong, have now fixed it. Jayen466 13:34, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Jayen, are the mentioned four types of regions "the only ones acceptable on wikipedia"? If not then I have a wierd idea. See MoonEagle. What do you think of the region? Or, we can write something more suitable if there is conflict- you can write anything in there. MoonEagle 20:28, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

According to the instructions on the template page, those four are the options to be used. They tie in with categories. As you say, you can write anything in there and it will show up on screen, but there won't be a corresponding category. And I still find it difficult to think of something meaningful to put that is not restrictive and squeezes the man into some box he doesn't belong in. It's kind of daft to put something just for the sake of putting something. What attracts me a little about the Philosopher template, on the other hand, is the possibility to enter "Notable ideas" (e.g. self-remembering), and "Main interests". And the use of the Artist template also does not link with any category here. Its only advantage is that you can have the name at the top, without having to invent some contrived category, and that you can list "famous works" -- the Philosopher template does not allow for that. Also, listing famous works is a lot less likely to cause disputes than listing "notable ideas". Cheers, Jayen466 21:33, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that ME's suggestion is very good and agree to it. esoteric (read first paragraph) would fit pretty well in here. Concerning "notable ideas" I would just put Fourth Way there. While Gurdjieff's books are mentioned at two or three places and is linked throughout the article, so I don't think that it's a big deal whether or no it's in the template. Aeuio 23:29, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I just put the philosophy template up (It could be a lot better - I didn't put much effort or detail in case everyone rejects) What do you think? Aeuio 23:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I've moved him from the age of enlightenment into the 20th century. Hmmm ... am still not convinced by Esoteric Philosophy. :-)) It's just not an established term with an agreed meaning. I like the "influenced by Mullah Nassr Eddin" bit though. :-)) I guess my problem is that I see Gurdjieff as a mystic, not a philosopher. There is a difference. More centres involved. ;-) Jayen466 00:02, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

O, I defiantly agree to mysticism over philosophy, I just wasn't sure if that template is allowed to say mystic instead of philosopher. Is it? Anyhow do you think this template could be made better than the artist one? If so, then I'll upgrade the info in the template to be more accurate and precise. Aeuio 00:54, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

Ok, we need a new agenda for eternal links. I think the external links arguing wouldn't occur if all the "group links" are not allowed (including the Gurdjieffian Foundations). I think it's understandable that "the Foundation and its affiliates are not the sole representatives of Gurdjieff and his teaching. Wikipedia, which uses an encyclopedic format and therefore by its very format is regarded as “definitive,” creates a de facto situation by listing only Foundation links under the external links section." (the quotations are from a recent email I got concerning the external links). And I guess that we shouldn't be playing a judge here and deciding which groups to mention. The formation of groups is mentioned in "Reception" and anyone if interested would obviously do extra research - so the easiest solution for us here is simply to describe the formation of these mainly known groups in Reception and not to promote any current group in external links. Aeuio 22:23, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi Aeuio, I've been pondering this post for a couple of days. I have not been able to figure out why you have taken the stance you have, but wanted to think about it before questioning you. I just went to the WP external links page [[1]]and found that your decision is perfectly correct! Regards, --Moon Rising 20:06, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

It had nothing to do with that WP page. If you'd actually believe me when I say that I am not in the Gurdjieffian Foundation it be pretty easy to get why I did that. Back when we were discussing the external links I had no problem of getting rid of all the links, but Yeago suggested to keep the Foundations. It really does seem unfair to the other groups that were also started by Gurdjieff's students. Aeuio 21:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Well then, there are 2 reasons. I think the Gurdjieff Foundations would be appropriate links for this Gurdjieff's article, but they offer no information, which violates WP policies. I personally would not have a problem to have all sorts of 4th way groups linked to the Fourth Way article, (not this one) but again, most of those links would not enhance the article, which is the purpose of links, as I understand them. And I never, ever doubted your statement that you are not part of the G Foundation. --Moon Rising 23:48, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Seems good to me. I suppose I thought that the Gurdjieff Foundation was started by G himself, not students. Therefore I thought it was a class above student-created groups. Either way this article is a billion times better than it used to be, and way less spammy. Could someone archive the talk page sometime soon?Yeago 05:01, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Love-Ark: I appreciate your help, but your reasons in your edit summary were pretty bad. Not only are they connected to the foundations, but Dushka (the lady that's putting that book together) was a student of Gurdjieff himself. I just wanted to point this out before someone asked you to explain your deletion. Aeuio 21:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I've been firing up Chatzilla and going to #wikipedia at freenode and alerting an admin instantly when someone spams this (and other) pages with their links (notice User:TheFourthWay's indefinite block), rather than waiting days or weeks for an admin to stumble upon them (google wikipedia irc). Its effective.Yeago 03:14, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gurdjieff and Politics

The article seems to imlicitly deny that Gurdjieff was a Tsarist spy, and it might be right, but I think it should be mentioned that his disciple Bennet thought that he was involved in espionage in some way; and Bennet can be presumed to be cluey about these things. Gurdjieff in Meetings for Remarkable Men refers to carrying letters for underground groups and the like.

Bennet also more than other disciples emphasised the political, social side of Gurdjieff's work. However heretical this may be to some it was clearly there, and referred to in the most direct terms in his postscript to Beelzebub's Tales. Bennet compared the Gurdjieff groups to mammals in the age of dinosaurs. He is sometimes reminiscent of the ur-anarchist Proudhon (even down to the sympathy for the tile) Jeremytrewindixon 05:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Definitely an interesting direction. Do you have any sources?Yeago 14:10, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

You are welcome to expand the article on this subject Jeremy. Aeuio 14:46, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How does everyone feel about that last edit? (removal of list of books and dvds)

Eh? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yeago (talk • contribs) 06:25, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Page looks clearer to me. Aeuio 15:58, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 04:02, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pupils section

I am wondering if this article needs a Pupils section. Gurdjieff seems to have had a lot of direct pupils, some of noteriety. How should we deal with them?

The latest addition of the Finnish Psychologist is probably not noteworthy but still an interesting inclusion as an item in a list.

Of course, there are all those book-publishing pupils who are dying to get their name in his article. What to do?Yeago (talk) 05:24, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I created a starter page in my namespace. Please add notable pupils to User:Yeago/List of Gurdjieff pupils —Preceding comment was added at 05:30, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism section

I've recently read the last chapter in James Webb's biography "The Harmonious Circle", titled of masters and men where he sums up Alan Watts' criticism of guru-organizations. I think this is a very good criticism of the Gurdjieff work and Gurdjieffs projects and it also includes the current argument under the criticism section. I do not now to which extent this book is available among you - but if some of you could read this section and see if you agree with me? Could a summary of the main points here (1, 2 and 3) be a good thing for the article? Or maybe it should be sorted under the fourth way article? --PeterKristo (talk) 11:30, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nasreddin as Gurdjieff's teacher?

Hello there. I've been doing extensive work to Life Is Real Only Then, When 'I Am'. I came across a few interesting passages. Among them is a quote by Gurdjieff where he says "...in the style of my former teacher, now almost a Saint, Mullah Nassr Eddin...". There are a number of ways this sentance could be read, some forgiving or apologistic of the idea that Gurdjieff claims to have been taught by Mullah Nassr Eddin, but I read it literally.

Is there another 'Mullah Nassr Eddin' that was alive in the 19th century? Was the historicity of 'Mullah Nassr Eddin' unclearly unknown in the 19th century?

Thanks. Also, I invite anyone who is interested to come help me work on the Life Is Real... article.Yeago (talk) 16:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe that he meant it literally; more along the lines as if he was taught by Mullah Nassr Eddin's wise sayings. There's probably some symbolic meaning to the referral to Mullah Nassr Eddin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Benzema (talk • contribs) 16:06, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

"Some symbolic meaning..."—rather vague. He says both 'my former teacher, now almost a Saint...' and I really don't think there can be any explaining away these two contemporary references to the Mullah. Anyone else?Yeago (talk) 20:21, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cruithne must be worth mentioning?

Hi all. In Beelzebub, Gurdjieff mentions Earth's second moon, that it IS there, that scientists currently do not know about it. That was in the 1930's. Some 70 years later modern science found this moon, now called Cruithne. Knowledge of this moon via the science at the time was impossible, so this seems to me to be the best evidence that Gurdjieff wasn't just a mystic or charleton. Everything else can be dismissed by scientists as pseodoscience or worse, but not Cruithne. So surely it is worth mentioning? Or have I missed something obvious, if so sorry and you can delete this post :) blucat david 6:00am, 8 June 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.142.12.109 (talk) 19:57, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Page numbers? Quotes?Yeago (talk) 01:04, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem with Cruithne is connecting it to Gurdjieff via some sort of publication. If you know of a place where an author has suggested this connection, then you can add it to the article as "So and so has suggested that Cruithne is the second moon that Gurdjieff was talking about" ; or something along those lines. Or even better would be if you know a place where Gurdjieff was documented as describing the second moon in a way which could be linked to Cruithne. Otherwise, Cruithne shouldn't be mentioned as another editor could very well say that 2002 AA29 is the second moon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Benzema (talk • contribs) 16:04, 9 June 2008 (UTC)