Talk:Fulton Street Transit Center

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And see Talk:Fulton Street/Broadway-Nassau Street (New York City Subway).

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Contents 1 Move 2 Fare control 3 Separate project and stations 4 From the Manual of Style on capitalization in article names and sections

[edit] Move

What was the exact reason why Broadway-Nassau-Fulton Streets (New York City Subway) was merged into this article and not the other way around? Is "Fulton Street Transit Center" the current name of the station or station complex? I don't think so. I would move it back to the aforementioned title until the complex is rechristened and construction is complete. Tinlinkin 13:25, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Yours truly NE2 is who moved it. He moved dozens of articles claiming he is replacing the en dash with the hyphen but removes the suffixes with the division and line monikers. This guy is really sneaky, and it's making me sick. --Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs) 18:13, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Fulton Street Transit Center appears to be the common name for the complex. I tagged it for merging for about a week but no one objected. --NE2 19:35, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Only one problem: the proposed complex is not complete yet. Therefore, the so-called common name would be Broadway-Nassau-Fulton Streets (New York City Subway). --Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs) 00:32, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

You may be right that it's not technically the "Fulton Street Transit Center" yet, and maybe we should have waited until it was completed. But you're wrong about "Broadway-Nassau-Fulton Streets": [1][2] --NE2 02:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

By the way, this was a merge, not a move. I think the question of merging should be discussed separately from the question of naming. If it gets moved back, should it stay merged? --NE2 02:01, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I support the merge. But the merge should have been to the existing station (complex), which was at "Broadway-Nassau-Fulton Streets". I'm not comfortable with using future names for current situations. If you are unhappy with "Broadway-Nassau-Fulton Streets", could you suggest a better name? (The individual station platform names are also unlikely to change, though it's always possible--a waste of money if that's done...) On the other hand, since this is a future structure, it may be better to keep the articles separate in order to avoid confusion. Tinlinkin 03:47, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Fulton Street-Broadway-Nassau: [3] --NE2 06:04, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

But don't forget that Nassau Street is a street too. Using "Fulton Street-Broadway-Nassau" is confusing, "Fulton Street-Broadway-Nassau Street" sounds long-winded. "Broadway-Nassau-Fulton Streets is right because Nassau and Fulton Streets are both streets (respectively). --Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs) 22:22, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

We don't create article names by changing around the real names into a neologism. --NE2 01:16, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

It is not a neologism. We are just combining two nouns (which are the streets) to make the name as short as possible. The MTA uses it as well as a whole bunch of other sites. Look them up for yourself. The name is unwidely long as Fulton Street-Broadway-Nassau Street. --Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs) 02:12, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The MTA uses it twice, both times while talking about the Staten Island Railway, and with a slash between Broadway-Nassau and Fulton Street, making it clear that they're treating it as two names. Fulton Street-Broadway-Nassau and Fulton Street/Broadway-Nassau is used much more: [4][5] --NE2 03:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

By the way, if it's not fine to leave off suffixes, why Jamaica Center–Parsons/Archer? --NE2 03:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

It is not left off, the real title is at Jamaica Center-Parsons/Archer (New York City Subway). And we should not make the name confusing to others. Plus, it doesn't look good, there is also a Fulton Street and a Broadway in Brooklyn, and even though there is a Nassau Street in Manhattan and a Nassau Avenue in Brooklyn, the "Street" is left off in the title. Sure we may know what the name of the complex is, but do you think others may know, especially non-New Yorkers who don't know of the subway? I don't think so. The google search i performed shows a whole bunch of other sites, we shouldn't always be limited to the MTA. --Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs) 21:32, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm talking about the street suffixes. Why isn't it Jamaica Center-Parsons Boulevard/Archer Avenue? --NE2 03:36, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Fulton Street is the primary name (i.e. used for 3 platforms vs. 1). "Fulton Street/Broadway-Nassau" (maybe "Fulton Street/Broadway-Nassau Street") is my preference if we need to consider which name is used the most. (But I don't want my opinion to be the deciding factor here.) Tinlinkin 07:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Is it OK if I start separating the text of the future structure from the existing station? Tinlinkin 07:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Sure, it makes no sense to have something that doesn't exist yet. --Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs) 00:10, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The merge was a mistake, and should be reverted. The Fulton Street Transit Center is a project. The project and the station need to be clearly distinguished. The project has a fixed duration, and will end. The station will endure indefinitely. Marc Shepherd 15:07, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

We don't normally split stations from projects. For instance, 59th Street (IRT Lexington Avenue Line) talks about the project to add express platforms. Now, if this article got too big, it might be a good idea to split it, but it's currently not. --NE2 17:39, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

There are at least two distinctions. First, the Fulton Street Transit Center includes work at other stations besides just the Fulton Street–Broadway–Nassau complex. In that respect it differs from the addition of express platforms at 59th Street, a project that was localized to one station. You may have been laboring under the misapprehension that the Dey St. Passageway was going to create a new free transfer inside of fare control, but I've addressed that below.

And in the second place, that is no justification for altering the name of the station from the usual naming convention. Marc Shepherd 18:50, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I think I agree with you on the name, although some of the mockups do shows normal signs that say "Fulton Street Transit Center". Essentially the idea of this merge came when Imdanumber1 was moving it to "Broadway-Nassau-Fulton Streets", despite the common name being "Fulton Street-Broadway-Nassau", and I tried to "think outside the box". (There is no "usual naming convention" in this case, since the map, schedules, and signs all display the individual names.) --NE2 18:56, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I was under the impression that the FSTC and the station complex are beginning to be referred to interchangeably. That's why I didn't originally think it necessary to unmerge. I'm still with my original feeling, but less so now. Tinlinkin 02:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fare control

What's up with this sentence?

In addition to work on the four linked stations, including a large entrance building at Broadway and Fulton Street, the Dey Street Passageway is being built outside fare control to connect to the Cortlandt Street (BMT Broadway Line) station, and a passageway inside fare control will connect that station with the World Trade Center (IND Eighth Avenue Line) station.

I recently read a NY Times article online that showed a animation of the station complex. (2 months ago?) (Illustrations are not archived, therefore there's no way to retrieve it.) It demonstrated a person going from the IRT Broadway-7th Av. platform to the BMT Broadway platform without going outside fare control, if I recall correctly. Am I correct? Tinlinkin 13:38, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I can't find anything that describes whether it's inside fare control. The video may have been outdated though. --NE2 02:14, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Why would the MTA connect the existing 2, 3, 4, 5, A, C, J, M and Z lines while having the N, R, W, and E line connection separate? The transfer is supposed to be amongst all those lines. That is why "outside fare control" makes no sense to me. (Maybe it's bad writing, I don't know. The present NY Times sources are from June 2006 and the article I read was much more recent than that. I will search the archives for the exact article I read.) Tinlinkin 03:53, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I think this is the article: from January 2007. I currently don't have TimesSelect, but I always think about subscribing. Tinlinkin 03:59, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

You might have access through your local library; mine gives me back to 1980. Anyway, that article doesn't say whither the passageway will provide free transfers. Building it outside fare control would allow non-subway passengers, such as people coming from PATH, to use it. --NE2 06:14, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

The MetroCard has the ability to allow free transfers without requiring platforms to be connected by fare-controlled passageways. Presumably this is what the MTA plans to do here. A big advantage of electronic payment systems is that they allow complex stations like this one to be built without a maze of twisty passages, all alike.--agr 03:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I was not thinking about the MetroCard (even though I know about the out-of-system transfers), but after reading your comment, I agree with you. After taking a closer look at the Dey Street Passageway, I think I understand the configuration better (with [6] and [7]). The Dey Street Passageway seems to be designed for easy paassage from the World Trade Center site into the Fulton Street Transit Center building, not a fare-controlled passageway. Otherwise, an entry to the subway system would have to be built near Church Street and the FSTC building would seem illogical. I apologize for the confusion I casued. I was thinking of my preconceived notions of fare-controlled passageways. [As a sidenote, I remember there was a fare-controlled underpass at Cortlandt St. station in which I looked at the "Trade, Treasure, and Travel" artwork. I think that is under Dey Street, but I'm not sure.] Tinlinkin 06:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The reference is Chapter 3 of the FEIS , p. 3-21: "The Dey Street Passageway is currently proposed to be an unpaid connection between the WTC site and the FSTC, and, as such, is expected to serve a larger volume of people than if it were strictly a paid-zone to paid-zone transfer...." PDF here Marc Shepherd 15:23, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the reference; it confirms my conclusion about pedestrian traffic (in a manner of speaking). What is the link for the entire document? Tinlinkin 02:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

The full document is at http://www.mta.info/capconstr/fstc/feis.htm. If you slog through the whole thing, you can see they did consider putting that passageway inside of the paid zone. I suspect they concluded it would be a seldom-used transfer. For most plausible transit trips, there are more convenient places already available to transfer between those lines. Marc Shepherd 12:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Separate project and stations

Okay guys, we need to repair the damage that was done to the station complex article and the project article. For the project article, the station should remain as is: Fulton Street Transit Center. But for the station article, I have really become indifferent with the station names for the articles, but would otherwise go with the following:

• Broadway-Nassau-Fulton Streets
• Fulton Street/Broadway-Nassau Street
• Broadway-Nassau Street/Fulton Street

If you have any more choices, please discuss before taking action because things are all out of order.

–Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs • email) 02:30, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I support anything that mentions Fulton Street first, with my preference being "Fulton Street/Broadway-Nassau" without or with "Street" appended at the end. As for splitting the Transit Center, the FSTC refers to the station building serving the station, so I don't want to separate it–but if a split provides clarity that a combined article wouldn't, I could be for it. Tinlinkin 03:19, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I support Tinlinkin's naming suggestion: Fulton Street/Broadway–Nassau. I see no need to append "Street" at the end, and the people who built the station in the first place didn't either.

The Environmental Impact Statement for the FSTC seems to use that name in two ways. In the first place, it describes the whole project, including two new buildings, the Dey Sreet underpass, and the new E/R-W connector. In the second place, it describes the main station building on the east side of Broadway between Fulton and John Streets. It certainly does not describe the whole Fulton/Broadway–Nassau complex. There are several station entrances whose renovations are already complete, and those entrances have the traditional names, not "Fulton Street Transit Center."

So, to fix this mess, I would recommend that Fulton Street/Broadway–Nassau" is the station complex, and "Fulton Street Transit Center" is the project, comprising a broader program of work that goes well beyond the station boundaries. Marc Shepherd 12:16, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm all for Marc's proposal, but I'm still concerned about the name suggested. I have, however, become indifferent with the naming, but I think we should identify Nassau Street as what it is: a street. –Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs • email) 01:11, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Per the foregoing discussion, the description of the stations has been moved to Fulton Street/Broadway–Nassau Street (New York City Subway). Marc Shepherd 20:57, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I replaced the en dash with a hyphen. According to WP:NC#Special characters, en dashes are not to be used in article titles.–Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs • email) 23:35, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

FYI, there are a good deal of NYCS station names with en-dashes in the primary name. Quite a few of these were created by LarryV, who is an admin and presumably knows what he is doing. Marc Shepherd 15:35, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] From the Manual of Style on capitalization in article names and sections

From Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Article titles

Only the first letter of the first word, letters in acronyms, and the first letter of proper nouns are capitalized; all other letters are in lower case (Funding of UNESCO projects, not Funding of UNESCO Projects). patsw (talk) 15:49, 17 January 2008 (UTC)