Talk:Fula people

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Assessment comments The following comments were left by the assessors: (edit · refresh) This article needs a lot of work. There is a bit that is good there, but a lot missing and some errors. I wish I could rate it higher.--A12n 01:34, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

"They are the only major migrating people of West Africa." The Tuaregs are sometine met very far in the south of West Africa. Ericd 13:39, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The Toucouleur, who are a sedentary people, refer to themselves as Halpulaar ("Pulaar speakers") and to Peulh people (nomadic people who sometimes pass through Halpulaar towns) as Peulfulbey or Fulbey.

I don't find the photo very as there's nothing that identify these women as Fula. In many country they wear coins in the hair.

Contents 1 Pullo ref 2 Removed comment that habe refers to the Hausa people. 3 Population 4 Fellata 5 Origins and spread 6 Huge amount of work needed 7 Name for the (people and the) section 8 Spinning off Fulani Jihad States? 9 What's in a name? 10 Other languages spoken

[edit] Pullo ref

What's the link to "pullo" intended to be in the intro? Can anyone clarify it? --Dvyost 16:25, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Removed link pending clarification. --Dvyost 22:16, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

pullo is the singular word for fulɓe.

[edit] Removed comment that habe refers to the Hausa people.

In Fulfulde, haaɓe means a non-Fulani African. What language group this refers to varies according to the place. In Nigeria and eastern Niger, this means a Hausa person, in western Niger this means a Zarma, in Burkina Faso a Mossi, in Mali a Dogon. There maybe some other variations in other places as well.

[edit] Population

An anonymous editor with a roving IP keeps trying to change the population info to 50 million. Until a source is cited, I will continue to revert this change. — Amcaja 14:58, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Just an added note: Pat I. Ndukwe in Fulani (1996) says that their numbers are estimated at 10 million. Ethnologue reports 886,700 speakers of Adamawa Fulfulde (various years), 180,000 speakers of Bagirmi Fulfulde (1996), 328,200 speakers of Borgu Fulfulde (1993, 2002), 450,000 speakers of Central-Eastern Niger Fulfulde, 919,700 speakers of Maasina Fulfulde (1991), 1,707,926 speakers of Nigerian Fulfulde (2000), 1,180,000 speakers of Western Niger Fulfulde (1998-9), 2,915,784 speakers of Pular (1991, 2002), and 3,244,020 speakers of Pulaar (1991, 1995, 2002). Adding these up, we get a total of 11,812,330 speakers of various versions of Fulfulde.

The page on Adamawa Fulfulde also says that there are "Possibly 13,000,000 speakers of all Fulfulde."

So, in the absence of any more authoritative population estimates, I'm going to change the population figure on the page to 10–13 million, citing Ndukwe and Ethnologue. — Amcaja 15:20, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fellata

Fellata, a group in Darfur, currently redirects here. I've seen occasional mention of "Fula speakers" in the south of Darfur, but don't have any idea how they fit with the rest of the group. If someone could offer some context, it would be much appreciated. - BanyanTree 01:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

There are Fulani in Sudan according to Fulani by Pat I. Ndukwe, so it's quite possible. Unfortunately, Ndukwe gives no more information. — Amcaja 09:14, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origins and spread

The ancient origins of the Fula people they are from a Semitic origin. According to the tradition, the ancestors of Fulani is Jacob son of Israel, son of Issac, son of Abraham When Jacob left Canaan and went to Egypt where who did not know about Joseph's fame in Egypt, came to power. He made the Israelites work hard at slave labor. The Pharaoh oppressed the people, including Fulanis who were rich in cattle. They emigrated from Egypt, some of them went back to Palestine and Syria under Moses guidance and the other crossed the Nile with their cattle and headed west. They took the name of fouth or foudh meaning those who left. A group from the latter moved along the edges of the Sahara to Touat-Air and then to West-Africa. Those who came to Masina (in present day Mali) spread to the neighboring regions where they were rejoined by Fulani groups from Morocco. It has established that about 700AD, Fulani groups from Morocco, moved southward, and invaded the regions of Tagout, Adrar, Mauritania, and Fuuta Tooro. The cradle of the Fulani group is situated in the Senegal River valley, where Fulanis established kingdoms. Until the beginning of the IX th Century..Around that period they continued their migration in the regions of Bundu, Bambouk, Diomboko, Kaarta, and Bagana Finally those who where concentrated in the Ferlo from the XI to the XIV century moved in various groups to the Fuuta Jalon, to the Volta river basin , to the Gurma, to the Haussa land, and to the Adamawa, Boghirme,Ouadai . But several centuries ago, right after their ultimate ethnogenesis they appear to have begun moving from the area of present-day Senegal eastward.

During the 16th century the Fula expanded through the Sahelian grasslands stretching from what is today Senegal to Sudan. Their military strength centered on powerful cavalry that could quickly move across the large empire and defeat rivals, but the Fulani could not expand southwards, as the horses could not withstand the diseases of those latitudes.

[edit] Huge amount of work needed

I just tinkered with the opening and the discussion of the tradition and history - but a lot of work is needed:

• More on the role of Fulas as herders (interactions with sedentary populations)
• Sedentarization
• Recent trends
• Accuracy re history (they spread before the 16th century, and Islam was not a factor until later
• The Jihad states section is one of the stronger, but needs some cleaning up
• A lot more on culture
• Language is another article and another issue

And that's just for starters... --A12n 01:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Good work on the name issue. In my experience, the name Fulani is more common in English than Fula. Would you agree? I'd propose a page move, but I'm mostly familiar with Nigerian and Anglophone Cameroonian usage. -- Amcaja 05:41, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I agree that Fulani seems more familiar in most English language literature. On the other hand Fula (or Fulah, or I've even seen Fullah) are common in the west of West Africa. (I'll start another section to pursue the discussion.) --A12n 21:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name for the (people and the) section

The question (from above) about the term to use in English for the Fulɓe is somewhat complicated. Note a discussion re the name for the language at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Languages/Fula. The British scholar David Arnott suggested using Fula for the language and Fulani for the people. That might be a solution here, but I'd suggest not doing so at least at the moment until more info can be gathered and opinions sounded.

There is a fashion to use the "autonym" for language and people, and that on the one hand seems reasonable, but on the other also seems very impractical to implement across languages for various reasons (sound systems, familiarity and ease of existing terms, etc.). In the case of the Fulɓe one notes increased use of Fulbe in academic literature in English. This could be a third option for Wikipedia. Personally I am not at all fond of it as it takes what in the Fula language is a nominal plural in the class for people (ɓe - one of the 26 or so noun classes) and generalizes it to all positions (noun, adjective; singular, plural; people, objects/animals). For example "a Fulbe mother" (from a Google search) is nonsense to me because Fulɓe is plural and mother (inna or nene [depends on dialect]) is singular. And when you get to inanimate objects ("a Fulbe manuscript") that's another problem. And so on. You start by wanting to be authentic by using "Fulbe" in English, but end up using it in ways that the original term "Fulɓe" would never be used in.

In some ways Arnott's solution of Fula and Fulani would work for broader education about the people in the context of African studies outreach. Fulani especially exists already in English much as, say, German or Chinese do (although historically more recent) and no one suggests we should start saying Deutsch or Zhongguo de.../Han.... For the moment I think Fula (which also exists in English) as it is in Wikipedia is workable and shouldn't be changed without some consideration.

Not sure how this will play out, but I post this anticipating that the question will come up and there will be a discussion about it. In the meantime there is plenty to do on the content. --A12n 21:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The one source I have that discusses all Fulani (rather than just those of Cameroon) is Fulani by Pat I. Ndukwe. He seems to agree with your assessment and suggests that Fulani is the most widespread name, and that Peul is preferred in French. Felaata is Kanuri, and Fulbe (singular Pulo) is German. Ndukwe says that Fulbe is the Fulani's own name for themselves. He gives the names Bororo and Toroobe for the "cattle" and "town" Fulani respectively but offers the alternatives of Fulani siire and Fulanin gida for the "town Fulani". Note that Wikipedia's article on the Bororo is currently at Wodaabe. I agree with you that more opinions would be good. But my vote at the moment is for Fulani, second choice Fulbe. — Amcaja 08:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

One further note: The earliest version of the article was created by an anonymous editor, so we won't be stepping on any toes if we move the article. — Amcaja 08:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Let me put the question to H-West-Africa (perhaps this weekend) to see what kind of echoes come back. Ultimately I'm a little leery of getting into a debate on the name in Wikipedia, as there can be different positions and never a perfect solution - and whatever is done with this article will have repercussions for the Fula language article, about which there is another discussion. One solution is to stay with the tatus quo; another is to pick the solution of a recognized scholar (like Arnott); another is to refer to what bibliographers use, etc. H-W-A at least will give us some expert opinions we probably wouldn't hear right here. --A12n 18:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Albert Adu Boahen gives these distinctions as Fulanin Bororo and Fulanin gida (caps intended), a split begining in the 15th century CE. The Torodbe or Toronkawa was a clan of town Fula who became the source of the Qadiriyya relgious leaders who led the first Fulani Jihad States.

This from Section 1, Chapt 6 in Topics in West African History by Adu Boahen, Jacob F. Ade Ajayi, Michael Tidy (1987). :T L Miles 14:24, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Everyone always writes that Fulani comes to English from Hausa without much verification or sourcing. However, Fulani is also the Bambara/Mande diminutive of Fula, the Mande word for Peuls (Fulani = Little Peul). This diminutive is slightly offensive (although sometimes just a joke) to Peuls in Mali. Could it be that English gets the term Fulani from the Mande languages instead? I propose (and always myself use) Peul, as it certainly doesn't derive from a Mande diminutive, but from the Peul language via French, and avoids the singular/plural problem of Fulbe.Hempcamp 06:21, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Interesting point re Fula-ni, thanks for bringing it up. Actually one will encounter Fulan- (or Filan-) constructions in Hausa, and the British of course ruled much of Hausaland that the Fulas ruled before colonization. Re "Peul," I think that is confusing for English speakers since Fula/Fulani is already in the language. Among other things, it leads to a misunderstanding that there is some basic difference between "Peul" and "Fula(ni)" (or for that matter "Fulbe").--A12n 14:56, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spinning off Fulani Jihad States?

I was trying to clean up Massina Empire and took a look at Sokoto Caliphate, which is a bit of a mess (and redirects to "Fulani Empire". To quote Nelson Muntz, "I can think of two things wrong with that title").

So that leads me here. I'd like to spin off Fulani Jihad States to an article of its own, taking in some of the distinctions of town/pastoral and the growth of the Toroobe clan (which is not short for town dwelling, but a specific clan that became source of sufi religious leaders). Objections, concers, offers of help?  :T L Miles 14:14, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Just catching up with this. I think that it might make sense to have separate articles for historical details on various parts of the territories lived in and and in some cases once ruled by Fulani. This article probably would then have discussion of general trends and very short introductory subsections with "Main article" links out. For an example of this approach see History of Mali. It also seems like it would be appropriate to have a category like "Fula history" - the only problem with that is that might be the need to reconcile with other history categories for the region. --A12n (talk) 00:44, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I just set up a stub article as Fula jihads in which I moved the section on jihad states. See discussion there.--A12n 17:19, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What's in a name?

I just did some revisions of the presentation of the names of the people in the beginning of the article. This is a somewhat complex subject in itself, but it all derives from the root ful- which whatever its original meaning is linked to the people and their culture. So here is what we have:

• Fula - derived from Manding languages; linguist David Arnott suggested using this name in English for the language, but in Wikipedia it is used for both the people and the language for consistency
  • Fulah or Foulah are variants of this
• Fulani - derived from Hausa language; David Arnott suggested using this name in English for the people; this is also used in this article and as an adjective in other WP articles
• Fulɓe - the name of the people in Fula language; a noe on etymology as I think this is important to proposed use of derivations in English: it is a plural noun in the "ɓe" class, which is for plurals of people (hence for instance Woɗaaɓe is the plural of Boɗeejo, etc.)
• Fulbhe - same as the above, but in the orthography used in Guinea until the mid-1980s
• Fulbe - an adaptation of the latter to English, but without the implosive ɓ sound; personally I don't like this because it (1) sounds wrong and (2) does not fit well in the range of uses it would be applied to in English (Fulbe woman? no, really Pullo woman etc.)
• Peul - in French, derived from the Wolof language, but sometimes also used in English
  • Peuhl or Peulh are variants of this

All of this could get confusing. I would suggest staying with the main term used for headers and main articles so as not to disorient readers, but being clear about alternate uses and flexible about other references. It all revolves around ful- anyway. --A12n (talk) 01:15, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other languages spoken

The Fula people#Culture & Language section has a list of other languages that Fulas might speak by country. I'm wondering if this is at all necessary. People in the region generally are polyglots. It might make more sense to have a short sentence on multilingualism among Fulas and others in the countries they live in. (The section originally mentioned just the official languages but some time ago others were added.) I'm not aware that any other page on an ethnic group spends as much space itemizing other possible languages. Anyway, I'd be interested in other thoughts before making that change. --A12n (talk) 04:16, 5 February 2008 (UTC)