User talk:Frania Wisniewska

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Contents 1 Response on Manfred von Richthofen translation 2 Marie Antoinette 3 Mal au Cœur 4 Pont Royal 5 Pavillon de Flore and a request :) 6 Manfred von Richthoven/Luftstreitkräfte 7 Pavillon de Flore: Our favorite topic :) 8 "Voie triomphale" & Project of rebuilding the Palais des Tuileries 9 Louvre? 10 Louis XIV of France 11 Dedication of France to the Virgin Mary & the birth of Louis XIV 12 Other wikis 13 Ponts sur la Seine à Paris 14 Free French 15 French Third Republic 16 Prince du Sang (bis) 17 WT:MOS#Appropriate use of capitalization in French titles and style from 1589 to 1830 18 Louvre 19 Chopin 20 Louis Alexandre de Bourbon, comte de Toulouse 21 Re: Help 22 Louise Marie Adélaïde de Bourbon-Penthièvre 23 wiki links

[edit] Response on Manfred von Richthofen translation

Welcome to Wikipedia! I see you've been here about a month and a half or so now. I'm glad I was able to be the first to greet you. By the way, you've really improved a lot of France-related articles; nice work! Regarding the translation, I wasn't (at least don't think I was) the one that did it. I remember only very vaguely editing the word 'kaput' to add a 't' but I don't think I've translated anything for this article. Could you show me the quote? I know German (as you sound like you do) and can look it over if you want me to, but otherwise if you see incorrect translation then go ahead and fix it. :) If you have any questions about anything, please feel free to let me know! JRDarby 02:44, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

JRDarby:

Thank you for your welcoming msg!

Here is the quote in the sentence before last in DEATH heading in MvR's article: "Another eye witness, Sgt Ted Smout of the Australian Medical Corps, reported that Richthofen's last word was "kaputt" ("broken") immediately before he died.[9]

I'll be sure to call for help if I need it. Merci beaucoup!

FW

I see the error as well. My first thought was 'finished' (the first thing you have listed as a possible translation on my talk page) and that sounds very appropriate. Good luck on editing and let me know if I can help you! By the way, to edit your talk page, you would best be served by clicking the edit nearest the specific topic to which you are responding, going to the bottom, and using colons to push the margins out so you can see each new edit and keep track of what everyone has said. :) See the source for this page for a demonstration. JRDarby 22:18, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Marie Antoinette

Michaelsanders,

Being rather new with this, I am not sure of how to get in touch with you about latest edits in the article on Marie Antoinette. If this is the correct way to talk to you, please let me know. I have been reading & re-reading the article & do not agree with a few points. For instance, I cannot understand the correction in the spelling of Marie Antoinette's fourth child. Marie Sophie Hélène Béatrice is her name in French and, since she is a royal daughter of France, why should "Béatrice" be changed to "Béatrix"?

The article is long & I keep on finding details that should be changed/corrected; however, I do not want to sound arrogant!

FW

With regards to Princess Sophie Hélène Béatrix of France - the link leads to that name, rather than to Princess Sophie Hélène Béatrice of France; since it was red-linking, I changed it.

You don't sound arrogant at all. If you find details that you believe need to be changed, then - provided you have a source to back up your changes, and include citations - you can change them. I do have to say, however, that in my personal opinion the article is not too long.

Also, please leave messages to other users on their talk pages (as I have left this on your talk page), rather than on user-pages. I don't find it particularly annoying, but it is slightly tedious to move messages from the user-page to the talk-page, and some users will get very angry if you leave messages there. Still no harm done, and I hope you are willing to improve the article further. Michael Sanders 13:01, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mal au Cœur

I agree this expression can have the alternate meaning you mention. But, when it refers to something sad, I think more of the latter expression you mention, ça me brise le cœur, which I think is completely unambiguous. At any rate, why are we talking about this right now? I say, let's think instead of Joy to the World — I wish you a Joyeux Noël! -- Turgidson (talk) 21:33, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pont Royal

Hi Frania, thanks for your suggestions--they have both been implemented on the article near verbatim to your words (see Pont Royal). Thanks for your help with this--I did the translation from the French site and didn't notice the errors until you pointed them out. Thanks again for bringing this to me attention on my talk page. Lazulilasher (talk) 16:59, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pavillon de Flore and a request :)

Hi Frania,

Again, thank you for your suggestions--I'll take a look at them tomorrow as today I am still recovering from the New Year's celebration. Also, I recall that whilst I was doing the initial translation and subsequent editing that I actually found that my sources conflicted regarding Pavillon de Liberte/Egalite. I think. On the other hand, I may be wrong, as I also frequently confuse liberte/egalite for some bizarre reasons (English cognates confuse me....go figure)...you can see also that I originally wrote the article this way (click here and scroll down about 1/4 of the way and you'll see it on the left side) and later changed it....Regardless, I'll look into it tomorrow and we'll get it sorted.

ALSO...I was wondering if you could help me with something. I did some major edits on the pied-noir article and was hoping that, since you appear knowledgeable about these sorts of things, you could take a look at it? I've requested a peer-review and nobody has taken me up on the offer, so if you have the time would you be willing to write the review and let me know what needs to be done? The peer review is here and the article is here. You can edit the peer review page beneath my comments if you'd like.

This would be of great assistance if you're able  :)

Thanks much! Lazulilasher (talk) 00:18, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Manfred von Richthoven/Luftstreitkräfte

Soundofmusicals: I am addressing this to you because as you were working on this article (removing "von", which I was planning on doing) - I was reading its history. A couple of things need to be corrected in the MvR info box but I hesitate to touch it for fear of doing something wrong. (1) On 13 December 2006, the box had been vandalised/vandalized and when it was reverted to its former version, something was left out. It is the name of the location of the death of MvR. In the first version, it was Morlancourt Ridge, near the Somme River which was correct, but incomplete. It should be Morlancourt Ridge, near Vaux-sur-Somme. "Somme" being the river running by "Vaux-sur-Somme", it would not be necessary to add "near the Somme River". If you look up Vaux-sur-Somme in the French wiki, Manfred von Richthofen is the only famous person making the list while the town of Morlancourt has nothing on him.

Here is a map with heading Der letzte Flug Manfred von Richthofens illustrating the air combat in which the Red Baron's Fokker Dr. I was shot down, and the exact location of the crash (Absturzstelle), north of Vaux-sur-Somme. Naturally, his route is shown in red.

http://www.tao-yin.com/baron-rouge/img/photos/carte-somme.jpg

(2) In the name Luftstreitkräfte, the German WWI "Air Force", there is no mention of "army" and "service". The translation given as "Imperial German Army Air Service". should be "Air (or aerial) Combat Forces" (Luft = air; Streit = combat; Kräfte = forces). Frania W. ::(talk) 02:44, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

1. Just finished sweeping up the last redundant von!! I have left any obviously correct "vons" (i.e. ones that are part of a "full name") - and have tried not to disturb any links or references.

2. I have changed "place of death" as you suggested.

3. The "translation" of the name of the German term for their WW1 air service is NOT a literal translation, of course - more a descriptive summary. The Germans (like everyone else at the time) had army and navy air services, but a strict translation might give an erroneous impression that the Germans already had an independent air force. Best left "as-is" I think. Soundofmusicals (talk) 22:09, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Soundofmusicals: The word "service" does not sound right to me in the appellation of the German aerial combat forces that preceded the Luftwaffe. You say that "a strict translation might give an erroneous impression that the Germans already had an independent air force." Wikipedia is filled with articles where the proper words are not being used in fear of "giving the wrong impression" and that is when the wrong impression is given. I much prefer the use of "aerial combat forces", which is not "Air Force", but describes exactly what men like Richthofen were doing, "combating" in the air.

Here are two links that may help convince you (?):

n° 1 is to a German article with English translation in adjacent column: http://www.knirim.de/a1201mod.htm

n° 2 are "selected German documents from the Records of the American Expeditionary Forces of WWI" under the heading M2087. These documents are at the National Archives & Records Administration (NARA), in Washington, DC. In the glossary of selected German terms & abbreviations, at page 11, you can see the translation for Luftstreitkräfte.

http://www.archives.gov/research/captured-german-records/microfilm/m2087.pdf

I rest my case. Frania W. (talk) 02:03, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Read your comment re. "literal vs free translation" with great interest and almost total lack of agreement - although I will not spoil either of our days with futile argument. If you feel VERY strongly about this issue I suggest you raise it in "open" discussion, as it is very large issue, which would affect many articles, not just this one. Soundofmusicals (talk) 02:15, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Soundofmusicals, your answer to me: "Read your comment re. "literal vs free translation" with great interest and almost total lack of agreement - although I will not spoil either of our days with futile argument. If you feel VERY strongly about this issue I suggest you raise it in "open" discussion, as it is very large issue, which would affect many articles, not just this one."

In some cases, the literal translation happens to be the exact one and in this particular case, the three German words describe exactly a kind of force which was not a "service", while the word "services" gives it an American slant. At least, as long as the German names are kept in the article, ce n'est qu'un demi mal. Frania W. (talk) 03:50, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Soundofmusicals: "La nuit porte conseil", say the French, and I woke up this morning with the solution that would avoid a long sterile discussion. The sentence before last in second paragraph of Early Life, reads as follows: "Richthofen applied for a transfer to the Luftstreitkräfte ("Military Air Service")". I propose adding my three contentious (!) words between parentheses to make the sentence read as follows:

"Richthofen applied for a transfer to the Luftstreitkräfte (literally: Aerial Combat Forces), the "Imperial German Army Air Service", forerunner of the Luftwaffe." Frania W. (talk) 20:12, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pavillon de Flore: Our favorite topic :)

Lazulilasher, here we meet again, this time not under the bridges of Paris, but at the Pavillon de Flore. After reading your article & its version in French, I looked for more articles on the renaming of Pavillon de Flore during the French Revolution of 1789 & fell upon something interesting in an old book "numérisé" by GOOGLE. Its long title is Histoire politique et littéraire de la presse en France avec une introduction historique sur les origines du journal et de la bibliographie générale des jounaux depuis leur origine by Eugène Hatin, Tome sixième, Poulet-Malassis et de Broise, imprimeurs-libraires-éditeurs, 9, rue des Beaux-Arts, Paris (1860).

I found mention of Pavillon de Flore on page 151 with the following written by Eugène Hatin: "Sur cette salle destinée à la Convention, qui préoccupait si fort Marat, nous trouvons dans Chronique de Paris un article assez curieux, dont voici quelques extraits. La Convention nationale a fait, le 10 mars, son entrée dans la nouvelle salle, au château des Tuileries, maintenant le palais national. On a donné aux trois pavillons qui le composent trois noms nouveaux : au nom de Flore a succédé celui d’Egalité, le pavillon de Mesdames s’appellera le pavillon de la Liberté, et celui des Cent-Suisses le pavillon de l’Unité. C’est entre le pavillon de la Liberté et celui de l’Unité qu’est placée la salle de la Convention nationale, dans la place qu’on appelait autrefois la Salle des Machines, ce qui fournira matière à plus d’un bon et d’un mauvais mot." I did not change Liberté for Égalité in your article, leaving you the Liberté (!) to do it. I also recommend that you read Eugène Hatin's book (500 pages). Also the article on the Tuileries in wiki in French. It has a couple of engravings of the old palais, one in particular showing the Pont Royal in front of the Pavillon de Flore. Frania W. (talk) 04:07, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Lazulilasher: If we could use an illustration of the Pavillon de Flore façade with Jean-Baptiste Carpeaux' sculpted decoration, Le Triomphe de Flore, it would add a nice touch to the article. Frania W. (talk) 18:00, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Frania

Well, the Good Article reviewers have now turned their sights onto our favorite obscure subject: the Pavillon de Flore. Anyway, the reviewer has kindly posted what needs to be done to fix the article onto the article's Talk page. I'm going to be spending my time trying to address the issues the reviewer posted, but was wondering if you could take a look at the reviewer's comments as well and we can see if we can get this thing up to GA status. Lazulilasher (talk) 14:47, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Will gladly help to the best of my abilities. In article, I just changed "Liberté" to "Egalité" & added book reference. Frania W. (talk) 17:47, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Great, I'm glad you're around to help! Anyway, I spent some time this morning finding some cites and addressing the issues the reviewer brought up (various accuracy errors, etc.). I'm going to take a look at some sources I have emailed myself and see if I can beef up the article a bit. The main reference I'm trying to nail down right now is a scholarly article/book which makes note of the mis-aligned axes (I posted a link on the Pavillon de Flore Talk to a google map I created which demonstrates--however, this would be original research....). Regardless, I'm sure we can increase this article's quality :) Lazulilasher (talk) 17:31, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Lazulilasher: Please check this: http://www.insecula.com/oeuvre/photo_ME0000049660.html The couple of pictures before this one are close ups of Carpeaux' "haut-relief" on the façade of Pavillon de Flore. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frania Wisniewska (talk • contribs) 19:16, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Lazulilasher: I read the article, saw the changes you made & added a few of my own. Will return to it with more info on historical "personnages" who passed thru it. There is also work to do in the Footnotes, such as following certain rules RE bibliography, going something like : last name of author, first name, title of book, page of reference, publisher, city where published, year. Will add this comment on PdF talk page. Frania W. (talk) 01:36, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi, there shouldn't be too much to do in the footnotes b/c I've used the {{cite book}} and {{cite web}} templates which are generally sufficient. However, feel free to add any more info you'd like, but leave the {{citation}} templates in because they're accepted. All of your work looks great, btw. Lazulilasher (talk) 01:39, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Y Yep. You were right--all of the footnotes were not in the same format--they've all (I think) been changed now to fit inline with the cite templates. Also--do you know if the insecula image is free use? If so, then we can use it in the article. I think it would be a nice touch to illustrate the article with the image....Lazulilasher (talk) 03:45, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I looked at the footnotes after you reviewed them. RE the books of reference, the page number is there, but not preceded by p. , so it is not clear that it is the page number. Not knowing how to work with templated footnotes, I cannot fix it - I tried one & the whole thing would have been lost, so I decided to leave it alone. Frania W. (talk) 17:37, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Frania, we can actually just type :pp in the pages argument of the {{{author}}}, {{{title}}}, [[{{{publisher}}}]], [[{{{date}}}]]. template. I'll do that now and post one here for you as an example. It took me forever to finally figure out how all of the {{{title}}}. , ^[1], and ^[1] Lazulilasher (talk) 18:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

RE the burning of the Tuileries: I found some great pictures that may interest you for either PdF article or one you may decide to do on the Tuileries, since the two subjects are closely related. No time right now to forward the info. Frania W. (talk) 18:39, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Lazulilasher: RE the copyright for the photograph of the "haut relief" by Carpeaux on the façade of PdF, please check the following: http://www.insecula.com/root/conditions.html. It looks like we have to look somewhere else, unless you want to go & take the picture yourself as I, unfortunately, am not in Paris right now to do it. Frania W. (talk) 23:19, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

It is quite unfortunate that I, as well, am not in Paris. I was just there a few months ago and at that point, I wasn't even aware that you could actually edit wikipedia. If I'd known I would have taken many photos. Oh well. Lazulilasher (talk) 13:54, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Lazulilasher: I found a photograph of the Flore haut-relief. http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:hoa6KfLv8EIJ:www.fond-ecran-image.com/photo-gratuite-facade.php+photos+haut+relief+fa%C3%A7ade+Pavillon+de+Flore&hl=fr&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

When you get to the site, scroll down to the 12th photograph. It is not as nice as the one on "insecula" as it does not show as much of the façade, but it is better than nothing. We also may have to leave a comment on the site & tell whoever is in charge of the use we plan of their photograph. Frania W. (talk) 00:50, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Voie triomphale" & Project of rebuilding the Palais des Tuileries

The "Voie triomphale" in Paris is the axis beginning at the center of the now gone Palais des Tuileries & passing through the center alley of the Jardin des Tuileries, the middle of the Place de la Concorde (Obélisque de Luxor), the Champs Elysées, Arc de Triomphe, and continuing through the Avenue de la Grande Armée. When the Palais des Tuileries was burned down, the axis fell upon the Louvre, unfortunately, not at its center. So the beginning of the axis became the equestrian statue of Louis XIV in the Cour Carrée of the Louvre. In July 1989, François Mitterrand inaugurated The Grande Arche de la Défense, built at the end of the Avenue de la Grande Armée to commemorate the bicentennial of the French Revolution. Instead of respecting the course of the “Voie triomphale”, the Grande Arche aimed at the center of the Louvre, throwing the axis off some 6.33°. Should the Tuileries palace be rebuilt, its center will again be the starting point of the "Voie triomphale"; however, the Grande Arche de La Défense will always be 6.33° off, unless the Ministère de la Culture decide to have it torn down and rebuilt within the axis. Which means that, from Place de la Concorde, it would not be seen because hidden by the Arc de Triomphe. Frania W. (talk) 04:32, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Frania, great info....I love the accurate measurements. Do you happen to have the source? If so, then I think the 6.33 part would be great in this article. Lazulilasher (talk) 18:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Will look it up. Also: RE the burning of the Tuileries: I found some great pictures that may interest you for either PdF article or one you may decide to do on the Tuileries, since the two subjects are closely related. No time right now to forward the info. Frania W. (talk) 18:45, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Louvre?

Any interest in tackling the Louvre article next? I've started to look at it and gather sources...I'd love to see that and the Tuileries articles brought up in quality. Lazulilasher (talk) 20:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Anything on historical Paris sounds great. The ensemble Louvre-Tuileries with adjacent topics such as the old bridges nearby that must be continued with more details. C'est un travail de longue haleine! Frania W. (talk) 23:50, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Lazulilasher"

[edit] Louis XIV of France

Something does not seem right with the last two sentences in second paragraph of the article on Louis XIV of France, which read as follows: "His reign thus spanned seventy-two years and three months, the longest of any European monarch[2] and the second-longest documented reign of any monarch since antiquity. Only Sobhuza II of Swaziland had a longer precisely documented reign (1899-1982)."

It seems to me that part of these sentences do not belong in the text but should be made into a footnote because, while they do compare length of long reign of several sovereigns, they go way beyond the subject being discussed, which is Louis XIV. I think the sentence should read: "His reign thus spanned seventy-two years and three months, the longest of any European monarch."

The rest of the sentence & last one should be a footnote.

Same msg left on discussion page of article. Frania W. (talk) 02:28, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Historymike"

[edit] Dedication of France to the Virgin Mary & the birth of Louis XIV

Left another comment on Louis XIV talk page, this concerning the consecration of France to the Virgin Mary by Louis XIII. Would like your thoughts on it. Frania W. (talk) 05:55, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Historymike"

I am awaiting for your response to my counter-proposal on your compromise offer. Lil' mouse 3 (talk) 07:00, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Other wikis

As far as I know, that would be perfectly acceptable. I'd like to see how other editors solved this "problem". Coemgenus 11:41, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

If I understand it correctly, that discussion is quite similar to ours. The problems in both cases are (1) the impossibility of a clear definition of what makes a source "reliable," and (2) a single intransigent editor. It also seems that reasonable discussion was unable to produce a solution in their case. As Serein said at the bottom of that page, "Si vous ne voulez pas arrêter de vouloir à tous prix introduire des erreurs sur Wikipédia, je vous le répète, je demanderai un blocage." I hope it will not come to that here. Coemgenus 16:03, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I've only just now realized the point you've been making -- I didn't know the word "souris"! Coemgenus 17:36, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

In response to your concerns, though, I think it is completely acceptable, and even appropriate to mention that the same activity is going on on the other Wikipedia. Coemgenus 18:04, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to you, too, for fighting the good fight. See you 'round the wiki. Coemgenus 22:10, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ponts sur la Seine à Paris

RE Passerelle Simone-de-Beauvoir:

(1) part of the text is squeezed between infobox & photo of lens transported on the Seine.

No way of avoiding that, short of putting the image in a gallery, which would move it away from the point at which it is relevant. Neddyseagoon - talk 15:03, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

(2) after "lenticular" is it necessary to have "(lens shaped)"? It is like having "circular" (circle shaped).

Perhaps, though lenticular is far less commonly used and known and thus might need explanation. Neddyseagoon - talk 15:02, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

On which side of the "pond" are we? ¿¿¿ Is not the meaning of "lenticular" obvious to a reader of English ??? Frania W. (talk) 16:16, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Frania W. (talk) 14:09, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I see what you mean about doing anything with the text squeezed between infobox & photo. Thank you for trying. Frania W. (talk) 17:12, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

RE Pont Saint-Michel

As a matter of chronology, it seems to me that the following, which is in the introductory paragraph, should be the last part of the History section.

The present 62m-long bridge dates to 1857 and was designed on three 17.2m arches by Paul-Martin Gallocher de Lagalisserie and Paul Vaudrey. It was the site of many of the killings of the Paris massacre of 1961.

Pont Saint-Michel is served by the Metro station Saint-Michel.

Your thoughts on this? Cordialement, Frania W. (talk) 22:23, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Free French

L'intelligent Monsieur Crapaud! I fell by chance on the article, read it all as well as the discussion, i.e. your arguments with Rama. I regret not having the time to get involved in your discussion, besides, I would only repeat what you are saying & present the same preuves, but I do want you to know that you are 1000 per cent correct, not in my opinion, but as far as facts are concerned. I flipped when I read in the infobox that Londres was the "French Republic Free French Government capital in exile". Poor de Gaulle was certainly not considered as "President" of anything while in exile in England. He was in exile, his fellow countrymen were in exile, but la République française was not. In fact, since Pétain had created l'État français, la République was dormant. There came a government in exile headed by de Gaulle only when he signed the Ordonnance du 3 juin 1944 in Algiers. A very good text to read on the subject is the one by the université de Perpignan that you also found: Les gouvernements de la France libre de la France combattante et de la Libération:http://mjp.univ-perp.fr/france/co1940fl.htm This alone should be enough proof in your argumentation. Should a vote be needed at any time to settle the matter, please let me know. Joyeuses Pâques! Frania W. (talk) 14:40, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Chere Frania, many thanks for your comments. What I need, however, is people to go to the article's Talk page and present these arguments there, and to revert the article as required so that I don't get banned from Wikipedia for constant reversions. Avec mes salutations, Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 09:41, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Cher Monsieur le Crapaud intelligent: I understand/know exactly what you need but, as I mentioned above, "I fell by chance on the article", was shocked by the title in the infobox & could not but agree with your arguments. But incapable at this time to bring anything new to support your stand, I retained from reverting because edit wars are time-consuming and, beside leaving a bitter taste, often end up with a text in limbo & filled with wrong data because the person who is right either gets tired or kicked out. Not being in France full time, it is difficult for me to access my books or go to a bibliothèque, the BNP or Archives nationales. However, I googled a couple of official French government sites & believe I may have found a very simple answer to the argument of "London as capital in exile" for the “French Republic Free French Government” . Within a few hours, I shall put something on the Talk page. In the meantime, here is something for you to check, if you have not already done so: http://www.assembleenationale.fr/histoire/histoire-1940.asp Cordialement, Frania W. (talk) 14:56, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Archives nationales: http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:9sjA6Bd8ZFkJ:www.archivesnationales.culture.gouv.fr/chan/chan/pdf/sm/A_2007.pdf+Archives+nationales+Fran%C3%A7ais+libres+Londres+1940&hl=fr&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=us

FW

Posted on Free French talk page: Rama: As I, unfortunately, have no access to de Gaulle's Mémoires, I would appreciate your kindness in posting the whole sentence - even paragraph - of your quote re: "Read Mémoires de Guerre, L'Appel, chapter La France combattante. It cites the composition of the government, and states "le Comité serait le gouvernment" and "le chef des Français Libres prît des responsabilités d'État". I would like to see these in their context. You are correct in noting that the first is in the conditional; however, in reading the on-going argument, and the comment by Med in the last revision: rv. "le Comité serait le gouvernment" and "le chef des Français Libres prît des responsabilités d'État". (See talk.), I am left under the impression that "le chef des Français libres prît des responsabilités d'État" is being translated as "the chief of the Free French took on the responsibilities of the State". This would be an incorrect translation. This phrase is not written in the "prétérit de l’indicatif" (preterite of the indicative), thus not stating that the "chief of the Free French took on responsibilities of the State". The accent circonflexe on the "i" of prît marks the use of the "imparfait du subjonctif" (imperfect of the subjunctive), in which mode, the author was not stating that the chief of the Free French took on responsibilities of the State: the whole statement is a “could be/should be/would be” type of conditional, as in "should this be done, the following could/would happen." Frania W. (talk) 19:10, 24 March 2008 (UTC) Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Free_French_Forces"

[edit] French Third Republic

David: Please click on the above article. I would like your thoughts on the content of the infobox. Je suis tombée sur l'article tout à fait par hasard hier, en suis tombée à la renverse, et n'en suis pas encore revenue. Ai laissé un commentaire à la page de discussion. Merci de bien vouloir y jeter un coup d'œil. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:French_Third_Republic

Cordialement, Frania W. (talk) 13:26, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:David.Monniaux"

Those flags illustrate the predecessor and successor flags. David.Monniaux (talk) 13:40, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:French_Third_Republic" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.79.146.8 (talk) 14:19, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Merci pour l'explication... but the sight of the swastika makes me cringe. Frania W. (talk) 14:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:David.Monniaux"

[edit] Prince du Sang (bis)

BoBo: Our paths have been crossing lately on the royal roads of France & I noticed that you added the title "Prince du Sang" to some royal personages. In my edit to Philippe I, Duke of Orléans :

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philippe_I%2C_Duke_of_Orl%C3%A9ans&diff=next&oldid=205217638,

I removed it without leaving a detailed explicative note, hence my contacting you here in case you would like to discuss it: I do not believe the title applies to the sons of the king, but to the male parents next in line should the king die without an heir, the first in line of these male relatives receiving the title of "Premier Prince du Sang" - the logic then is that if a male relative (cousin, uncle, nephew...) of a Fils de France is titled "Premier Prince du Sang", the Dauphin & his brothers do not have the title of "Prince du Sang", otherwise, it is the Dauphin who would be "Premier Prince du Sang".

Here are a couple of links from fr:wikipedia, as I presume you read French:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_du_sang

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appellations_des_princes_du_sang

Frania W. (talk) 17:03, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WT:MOS#Appropriate use of capitalization in French titles and style from 1589 to 1830

Frania, this exchange may interest you. As noted in the title, it is about capitalising French titles. Charles 01:09, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Charles, thank you: I have been following the discussion. Frania W. (talk) 01:49, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Frania, you are right on the spot with all of your comments. A user is able to prove that a form existed but does not acknowledge any other forms that do not align with his or her ideology, preference, et cetera. That we have an official regulating body for French now should govern how we use it in English only because English is otherwise silent on the matter of what to do. So long as we are silent as well there will always be chaos, there will always be edit disputes and there will always be questions and circular discussion. I cannot see why certain parties do not realize this but alas, I wonder that about *many* things in life! :) There are no single "historically accurate" forms for any title that the user listed; rather, there are many. Also, the user provided a list of books using his or her preferred form (initial upper case) but did not follow a request to show examples that didn't use that form. Weak foundation for an otherwise simple case. Even though the "right" thing to do is right in front of us, we will never reach it so long as there is vocal opposition (even if it doesn't make much sense). Charles 18:39, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, regarding the translation of de, we should never do it unless there is a strong case for it (like Dukes of Orléans, etc) but we should never, ever use terrible forms like "duc of Orléans"! To see that gives me a headache. Charles 18:42, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Whenever I read the comments of someone who brandishes Antonia Fraser's books to prove a point, I go into orbit... Frania W. (talk) 03:37, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Louvre

Frania! Ca va ou quoi!

I've been working a lot on the Louvre article. And was wondering if you could take a look at it, provide some of your detailed insight....double check my work regarding the history of the structure...etc....basically, if you have the time (ha, I know) I would really love your help.

How is everything?

Lazulilasher (talk) 13:27, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Où étiez-vous? La dernière fois que j'ai vérifié vos contributions, la date était toujours au 28 février. Je commençais à m'inquiéter. Maintenant je peux respirer!

I will be more than happy to work on the Louvre with you. Will check it ASAP. I have been very busy with other matters & have not touched le Pavillon de Flore for which I have some additions, but I did go thru all the bridges on the Seine. Had plans also for the Seine as there are some inexactitudes in the article. Mais chaque chose en son temps.

Aurevoir! Frania W. (talk) 15:13, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Ha! Thanks for the comment! C'est genial, ceci. I was starting a new job and was actually in/out of France often (we're headquartered in Levellois-Perret, juste a cote de Neuilly. Due to the new job, I decided that I couldn't edit Wikipedia until I had already built a decent reputation. But, helas! Here I am! aux citoyens, aux armes, aux stylos! au travail! En avance pour la Wikipedia! Lazulilasher (talk) 15:19, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Et en l'avenir, tu peut me tutoyer, si cela conviens le situation! Lazulilasher (talk) 15:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Lazulilasher"

Lazu, d'accord, on se tutoie. Alors tu travailles à Levallois-Perret? Bonne chance dans ton nouveau truc, ou plutôt... m.r.e! Sans rire, j'étais sur le point de confier mon inquiétude à Neddyseagoon qui semble être souvent sur les mêmes sujets que nous. Á bientôt sur notre favorite subject et autres. Frania W. (talk) 17:04, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Chopin

I notice on your French talk page that you are contributing heavily to the Chopin pages la. Maybe we have the next project? I love Chopin! Lazulilasher (talk) 14:25, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Oui, moi aussi j'adore Chopin. I spent hours transcribing tonalities that were given in either the English or German manner & checking the opus numbers. The only way to do it was to verify each composition against the partitions I have - ça a été du boulot and, as I said, it took hours, but time well spent. By the way, the article on Chopin already exists in en:wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Chopin Musicalement vôtre, Frania W. (talk) 15:37, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Louis Alexandre de Bourbon, comte de Toulouse

FactStraight, I have brought some changes to the article. One of them, a reference at Family and Death , is a link to an article in fr:wiki; although showing [1], the reference does not appear when clicking on [1]. Would you mind fixing it? I added the link to References. Thank you. Frania W. (talk) 12:08, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:FactStraight"

[edit] Re: Help

Charles, I have been working on several articles on the Bourbon-Toulouse-Penthièvre family and am having problems including references & footnotes. I have no idea what's wrong as I follow the steps by clicking on "references". The numbers show in the text itself, but nothing happens when clicking on the number. The articles are Louis-Alexandre de Bourbon, comte de Toulouse & Louise Marie Adélaïde de Bourbon-Penthièvre. If you check my edits (edit this page), you will see that my references are there. Merci d'avance, FW Frania W. (talk) 17:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi Frania!

This has an east fix. Put {{Reflist}} (without the nowiki if you are viewing the code) at the top of the references section. Voilà! :) Charles 17:28, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank your for returning to me so quickly. Will get to it when I have more time. Très bien et merci. Frania W. (talk) 17:39, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Louise Marie Adélaïde de Bourbon-Penthièvre

Would you mind taking a look at the last five revisions done on 12 May by 86.154.178.231 ? The changes do not bring anything new or noteworthy to the article; in fact they contradict what is already there & look to me as possible vandalism. Frania W. (talk) 01:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:ClueBot_Commons"

It's not exactly vandalism: it's just BoBo editing under one of his two sockpuppets (the other is Tbharding), to make it look as if he is "improving" someone else's edits. He tries to make these Bourbon articles look and read like a novel, padding them with redundant or trivial information. Anyway, I tried to cut the article down to size. Now it's your turn. :-) FactStraight (talk) 07:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you FactStraight. Same "redundant or trivial information" is added to every article, making for unnecessary length, while interesting details are skipped - or removed without explanation, as was the case in several of my edits yesterday. Aurevoir! Frania W. (talk) 13:17, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Since Tbharding reverted all of my edits without any explanation, I have reverted back to my version, with explanation. Unfortunately, that meant I had to revert your edits as well. I tried to restore the substantive ones, but you should check and make sure that it is correct. I object to referring to people by three Christian names as excessive, and really would prefer use of only one. I expect that one of the sockpuppets will again revert everything. If so, I recommend that rather than re-editing from his version, you revert, if warranted, to yours or mine: he can't revert us both on these Bourbon articles without violating the rules against 3RR and Sockpuppet. I try to work with his edits when they are reasonable (much of his input is good), but he can't be allowed to turn 18th century France into Gothic fiction on Wiki, full of titles & genealogy with pretty pictures, but no substantive content and no proper citations, all for his own amusement. BTW, Wiki articles (even French Wiki) are not considered acceptable as citations. Enjoy editing! FactStraight (talk) 04:45, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for this update. I shall go thru the article & check with you before making any "conflicting" changes, or am in doubt about anything. Aurevoir! Frania W. (talk) 04:59, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] wiki links

Bonjour cher Coemgenus: Going thru a few articles related to the Bourbon dynasty of France, I notice your name here & there. Hence my writing you on the subject of repeated blue wiki links on dates, personages, cities etc. Once Paris or Louis XIV have been wikilinked, it is enough. Repetition of the process within the same article is unnecessary & disruptive. Is there a rule stating that Paris & others have to be wikilinked every time? Frania W. (talk) 22:13, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Coemgenus"

You're right about the excessive linking. There's a guideline about it somewhere in the manual of style, but I'm not sure where. Basically, I believe, one should not link more than once to a given article unless there is a good reason. If the two links are separated by a large amount of text, that's probably ok, but not twice in the same paragraph. Dates are different -- wikilinking them makes them able to be formatted according to a user's preferences, so that I can read my dates American style and people who prefer the European style can read them that way. This page talks about the dates. Bonjour! Coemgenus 10:40, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Merci Coemgenus for the guideline. What you say makes sense & is in line with what I thought. Bonne journée! Frania W. (talk) 13:03, 13 May 2008 (UTC)