Talk:Fra Angelico

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	Fra Angelico is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.
September 29, 2007 Featured article candidate Not promoted

Foolishly put up too many FACs simutaneously! Too much work to do!Amandajm 07:07, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

This article incorporates text from the Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition, now in the public domain.

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A reason for this B rating on the Visual Arts scale has been requested, since the article. --Amandajm 00:37, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

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Contents 1 Name 2 renaissance...? 3 Date of birth 4 Recent clean-up work 5 Britannica POV 6 Aritistic legacy 7 Renaissance/Gothic 8 Name according to the Roman Martyrology 9 Acts of charity/mercy 10 Stupid mindless vandalism 11 Evaluation 11.1 Influences on Fra Angelico 12 Self portrait 13 Artistic Legacy not a good fit for Fra Angelico article

[edit] Name

is this artist "Beato Angelico"?

yes, but everyone who talks about his art other than tour guides in Florence refers to him as Fra Angelico. Of course, he had a name.

All the authors I have read in my life, with no exception, call him Beato, and presumedly they had no time for that (still respectable) job. Of course, it was mentioned he was a friar. :-)

His name was Giovanni (correctly Fra Giovanni da Fiesole), and Beato Angelico is "simply" the nickname (due to some carachteristics of his works - sense of beatitude, angels) by which he is known.

fra angelico is cool

Better: other friars too call him this way [1]

The "beato" is actually attributed to a contemporary who saw his work and said that he must be "beato" to be so talented. Can't find the source right now, but trust me, I'm writing two papers on him so I must have read it somewhere! --Cantara 03:33, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

The following sentence strikes me as sounding kind of odd, but I'm not sure of a good way to rephrase it. Someone want to take a stab at it? "According to all the accounts which have reached us, few men on whom the distinction of beatification has been conferred could have deserved it more nobly than Fra Giovanni." Airosche 13:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be a mix up here as to what he was called at what date.

• Beato isn't his name. It is a title given by the Vatican on the way to Sainthood. It simply means "blessed". He didn't officially get "Beato" until the 20thC. (But I am not disputing that one of his contemporaries might have suggested that he was "blessed" ie specifically gifted by God. Several artists were frequently honoured with the title unofficially- Andrea del Sarto, Raphael and remarkably (given the state of his private life) Michelangelo. (But never Caravaggio)
• He was known as Father John from Fiesole. Fra Giovanni di Fiesole.
• Within a short time of his death, and possibly even before it, his contemporaries were calling him "Il Angelico". Vasari writing a hundred years later calls him Fra Giovanni Angelico, so it had become by that date part of his established name, in the same way as Lozenzo dei Medici was known as Lorenzo il Magnifico or an English-speaking person would say Richard the Lionheart or (more recently) Albert the Good.

--Amandajm 00:03, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] renaissance...?

Fra Angelico is in no way a "gothic" painter. Look at the architecture in his work! Look at the colors! The drapery! The stylized faces! Anyway, I'm changing his categorization and taking him off the list at Gothic art. --Cantara 03:33, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, Cantara, If you look at the work of Late Gothic painters you see that FraAngelico merges with them seamlessly. There is no boundary line that he could cross, or even stand upon. Giotto, for example, is regarded by many as the first Renaissance painter, but he was followed by a hundred years of Gothic painters some of whom were very Gothic indeed. Fra Angelico fits very much into what we know as "International Gothic". If you are still around to do it, can I suggest that you put him right back on the Gothic list, as well as the Renaissance list.

--Amandajm 00:03, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I must speak up again in defense of his classification of Renaissance. International Gothic style may have continued after the black death killed off most of Giotto's followers but we are refering more so to the time he lived in rather than his style. Additionally, observe his work more. He does blue skies as well as gold skies, he goes between both styles as he progresses. The works in the Met Museum show his attention to anatomical detail and his knowledge of rudimentary perspective. 67.82.13.55 23:48, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Date of birth

Are we sure of his date of birth? I get 1387 from Find-A-Grave. Lincher 20:02, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent clean-up work

I've made some fairly extensive edits, particularly in the section now called "style", which I would be very glad if someone would look over. I was primarily attempting to reduce/remove the POV writing in that section, as well as the first-person voice. I might have gone too far, or not far enough, and welcome any input from other editors. Cantara 00:19, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Re my edits

Hi Cantara

The little problem of POV. There is a very llarge slab of this article that has been lifted from the Britanniica aand has been written by someone who should have knownn better but obviously didn't. The Brittanica writer who has done the Early Renaissance painters does not like Early Renaissance ppainting. That is obvious by all the slabs that have been incorporated into articles by well-meaning wikis. In this case, the writer goes to ridiculous extremes. Its all POV stuff, but written with great authority, annd its very "put-downish" to the millions who love the Blessed Angelico. Gotta be rewritten, from scratch! and I'm gunna do it. As iit is, it is absolutely useless to anyone who might consult Wikipedia for information.

The approach in this material is judgemental rather than either analytical or explanatory. Its no use to anybody, but it takes courage and determination to get rid of it. In many ways I think it's better to have only a little bit of material than to have a great wedge that is biased or missleading.

--Amandajm 00:03, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Britannica POV

I am putting here for the benefit of those who don't want to bother searching the history, a quotation which is part of the Britannica article, to make clear why I removed it. It is verbose, pompous, bombastistic B.S. It is also consciously and deliberately insulting of anyone who who enjoys Fra Angelico's works.

Moreover, the passage "detachment from secular worries and turmoil" is intrinsically wrong, as a great number of Fra Angelico's works deal with death, grief, pain and despair.

"The "pietistic" quality of Fra Angelico's work is in fact its predominant characteristic. The faces of his figures have an air of rapt suavity, devotional fervency and beaming esoteric consciousness, which is intensely attractive to some minds and realizes beyond rivalry a particular ideal— that of ecclesiastical saintliness and detachment from secular worry and turmoil. It should not be denied that he did not always escape the pitfalls of such a method of treatment, the faces becoming sleek and prim, with a smirk of sexless religiosity which hardly eludes the artificial or even the hypocritical; because of this, there are some who are not moved by his work. Even so, Fra Angelico is a notable artist within his sphere,......."

--Amandajm 06:06, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aritistic legacy

I've rewritten this. It obviously wasn't clear enough for readers to make the right connections, in the light of the previous statement about the effect of major commissions and wealthy clients on an artwork. Perhaps the person who deleted the material knows little about Michelangelo and was unaware of the fact that the Sistine Chapel paintings were a radical break with tradition.

The paragraph ended up as being a mere list of four names showing only an historical connection but eliminating any indication of a stylistic connection which is the significant matter, in a paragraph entitled, Artistic legacy. I hope that it is now clear and that people will look at the four pictures in the gallery below, in the light of what is written, in order to comprehend the content.

--Amandajm 01:13, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Renaissance/Gothic

Angelico assimilates elements of both styles, having trained under Lorenzo Monaco (Italian Gothic), having been brought up around the work of the successful Gentile da Fabriano (International Gothic) and having been introduced to the new style of Masaccio. Ultimately, however, he is a Renaissance painter.

Not wanting to split hairs over this, I would also include him among the International Gothic painters, if only for the Last Judgement in the National Gallery, London. But yes, ultimately he was a Renaissance painter. --Amandajm 14:56, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name according to the Roman Martyrology

I was just looking him up in the Roman Martyrology in the completely revamped edition of 2001 and couldn't find him in the index under Ioannes de (or da) Fiesole Eventually I found him by looking up the date of his death (the Mrtyrology groups Saints and Blesseds by day of death, it is meant for daily recitation, it is not strictly speaking a reference work). Anyway I included the name for folks like me. DShould save nanoseconds. Mind you I don't hold out much hope for its survival. --Stroika 21:46, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Acts of charity/mercy

I'm uncertain where this comes from but I have heard that when an outbreak of the plague came to a city/village he was in, he was amongst the few who stayed and comforted the sick and dying and as a result, this is treated as one of the Miracles he is attributed to. Has anyone else encountered a source on this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.82.13.55 (talk) 23:54, 29 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Stupid mindless vandalism

Back on Feb 7th 07 a bloody minded vandal removed ten years from the godd friar's biography. The page has been editted umpteen times since then. Readers and eiditors have happily made a giant leap from Early Years to Vatican and in the process they have dotted and i and added a comma and never noticed commented that a critical section of the man's life had gone!! I flabbergasted.

The reason it wasn't picked up was that someone followed it up with a "minor" vandalism..."Fra Angelico rulez" or something equally daft. The nnext editor fixed the minor on, and didn't notice the major one, moreover the "fix" masked the fact that the majjor vandalism had taken place.

This has probably happened to other articles as well. can editors bbe alert to it?

--Amandajm 00:02, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Evaluation

In the evaluation section I do not see the point of the first and third subsections- background and contemporaries. The first states that he existed in a time of change for painters, citing Giotto and Giusto de' Menabuoi, but does not explain how Angelico fits into this context. It hints at the stylistic debates already mentioned here about whether or not he was a renaissance painter but inadequately explains the relationship between these earlier artists and Angelico. Its a bit like saying "Leonardo Da Vinci was a painter. Fra Angelico was an earlier painter." as if this qualifies it. The Contemporaries bit has the same failings.

I am quite interested in how he is influenced by other artists who informed his style, but feel that this is not very well explained here. I haven't really edited much on here before so would like to know whether this is justifiable criticism, and whether a deeper discussion about his influences here is inappropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dtrui tyfljk (talk • contribs) 13:35, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Influences on Fra Angelico

I think it is all there, actually, but divided by separate headings. What is being said is that from 1300-1400 there was Giotto, his contemporaries and those that he influenced. These painters worked major commissions. The commission to paint a major fresco cycle, or a major altarpiece affected their work in certain ways- they were constrained to please the patron. Altarpieces have certain characteristics.

Around 1400 we have two movements- naturalism, (Masaccio); Internatonal Gothic (Fabriano). Fra Angelico sits somewhere between the two.

Then it goes on to say that when constrained by a major commission, Fra Angelico's style has more elements of International Gothic than when he is working more independently. It is thought that the paintings in the cells at San Marcos may have been influenced by the wealthy Medici patron, Cosimo. But they do not reflect the usual trends in "patron driven" painting of the period, ie. they are very plain, simple, naturalistic and take a step in the direction ultimately brought to fulfilment in the Ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, where Mighty Mick eschewed crowded scenes, brocade robes, lapis lazuli and gold edges in favour of a story broadly told in large figures. Amandajm 14:24, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Self portrait

Is there a source or cite to support the claim that the figure in the Deposition is a self-portrait? If this is indeed a traditionally accepted interpretation, then some documentary evidence must be available. JNW (talk) 18:47, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

• You should ask Amandajm about that. I wanted to use this but Amandajm didn't believe it authentic, despite its use in books and articles as a portrait of Angelico. If what is currently in the article is truly a self-portrait, it would be better than a posthumous painting, but I, like you, would have liked authentication. --JaGa (talk) 23:16, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I've perused the discussion on JaGa's talk page. The attribution of this [2] portrait by Signorelli as being of Fra Angelico definitely pre-dates the publication by Creighton Gilbert of 2002. It does not necessarily contradict portrayals that may represent the artist at a more advanced age. As for the current image, it may well be a self-portrait, but it is not unreasonable to anticipate a published source. JNW (talk) 01:48, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll see what I can turn up. But probably not until after Christmas. Otherwise, we use the Signorelli. Amandajm (talk) 15:19, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I could not find a reference, otherwise I would have done it. JNW (talk) 21:35, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Artistic Legacy not a good fit for Fra Angelico article

Why is this paragraph in an article about Fra Angelico?

When Michelangelo took up the Sistine Chapel commission, he was working within a space that had already been extensively decorated by other artists. Around the walls the Life of Christ and Life of Moses were depicted by a range of artists including his teacher Ghirlandaio, Raphael’s teacher Perugino and Botticelli. They were works of large scale and exactly the sort of lavish treatment to be expected in a Vatican commission, vying with each other in complexity of design, number of figures, elaboration of detail and skilful use of gold leaf. Above these works stood a row of painted Popes in brilliant brocades and gold tiaras. None of these splendours have any place in the work which Michelangelo created. Michaelangelo, when asked by Pope Julius II to ornament the robes of the Apostles in the usual way, responded that they were very poor men.

It's interesting, but it doesn't really have a place here. Perhaps there should be an article devoted to the history of Vatican-commissioned art. But this intrudes on Angelico's space. I'd like to at least remove the Michelangelo paragraph that doesn't even mention Angelico, and perhaps the entire Artistic Legacy section. Comments? (And yes, I've read the Artistic Legacy section above.) --JaGa (talk) 10:19, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I wrote it. I tend to agree. I think drawing the line from Fra Angelico to Michelangelo inthe way it has been done is probably OR. Why don't you chop it up a bit? Amandajm (talk) 10:40, 25 February 2008 (UTC)