Talk:Flag of Ireland

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Contents 1 Green, White and Orange? 2 Four provinces flag image 3 A new flag for Ireland? 4 What colour is it? 5 Gold 6 Folding 7 Changes 8 Are the colours correct? 9 Why so many flags? 10 History 11 Some things worth including 12 "Precise" colours 13 Wrong title for this page 14 Suggestion 15 Proposal 16 17 Meaning of the flag 18 Meaning of the flag 19 Colours 20 Is the Flag of the Republic 21 Union flag

[edit] Green, White and Orange?

Small aside: Many people in the Republic of Ireland describe the flag's coloInsert non-formatted text herers as Green, White and Orange (which is technically incorrect). I'm not sure why that is -- its probably because they are denial that the Orange represents the Unionist community.

If you are talking in technical heraldic terms you can't use terms like "blue" but have to say "azure" etc. I forget what "green" would be, but I'm pretty sure white and gold are "argent" and "or". PML.

That may be generally correct but in the Irish instance, the colors are always referred to as green, white and orange, just as the Union Jack is always referred to as red, white and blue. And the Irish presidential flag is always described as Saint Patrick's Blue, not azure. JTD 22:53 Feb 6, 2003 (UTC)

Also, nothing rhymes with "orange" so if it's nationalist poetry you're writing, a bit of poetic license is called for. Joestynes 09:48, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Shouldn't this article go into to Red Hand flag that was used in NI before 1972-73? hoshie

The following has been removed from the article because a user has questioned its accuracy. However it sounds kind of like it might be so if someone knows it is accurate please provide a source and we can put it back.

Contrary to myth, however, it was not the actual flag of the Easter Rising; that flag was in fact a green flag with the words 'Irish Republic', written in orange with white shadowing. (This flag is on display in the Kildare Street branch of the National Museum of Ireland.) The tricolour in the Rising was in fact the flag of E-Company and as such was flown over the General Post Office, Dublin (GPO), the headquarters of the Rising's leadership. Unlike the official flag, the E-Company's tricolour caught the public imagination and became the de facto flag of the Irish Republic

Iota 15:07, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This is indeed true. I do not have a source, but I'm re-instating it.

The last sentence is the only subjective piece in the paragraph. It is possible to elaborate further on that point.

zoney ♣ talk 16:36, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I'm slightly less certain what the previous editor took issue with. The essential statement in the section listed above is still on the page, namely,

Contrary to myth, however, it was not the actual flag of the Easter Rising; that flag was in fact a green flag with the words 'Irish Republic'. It became the de facto flag of the Irish Republic (1919-22).

So I'll leave it as is for now. zoney ♣ talk 16:42, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I don't think his concerns were about NPOV. I think he was questioning the factual accuracy of the stuff about E-Company. Lapsed Pacifist put a note on my talkpage saying he deleted it because he wanted to see a source for the sentence. That's fair enough but to me the removed sentence doesn't sound like something someone would just make up. Iota 17:30, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Four provinces flag image

This is not the most important disagreement we'll ever have on Wikipedia but I want to say my piece anyway. Whether the four provinces flag should remain in its original position rather than be moved so as to be precisely alligned with the "Other flags" section is an aesthetic judgement call. Pictures don't have to precisely line up with section headings and often, for stylistic reasons, it is desirable that they don't. Certainly no-one is going to be confused into thinking the four provinces flag is the St. Patrick's flag or vice-versa. When I added the image to the article I put it in the position that I thought looked best. In the absence of any strong reason to move it I don't see why another user should be allowed to impose their own aesthetic preference over the status quo. I'll not make any change to the article for the moment. Iota 17:57, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well I agree it's all rather trivial. But I think putting a picture in the section where it's discussed is a "strong reason" for moving it. I'm guessing the thing you dislike about this aesthetically is that the image is longer than the text? While not perfect, this will be corrected if future edits augment the text. On the other hand, having 2 flags together is imperfect as compared to the consistency of having all images at the left margin. I agree that minor fiddling around fine judgement-calls clutters edit histories, but in this case 2 different users have preferred the lower position and only one the higher. Joestynes 07:34, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A new flag for Ireland?

Does anyone else fell that we should have a new flag? I'm aware of what the tricolour represents and the emotiveness of even suggesting this, but we have older (and in my view, far better) symbols for our nation than the tricolour. Also - and again, this is just me - its way too similar to that of India, Cote d'Ivorie and a few others; plus the fact that green, white and orange clash for ****** sake! It looks terrible on our sports teams! Any suggestions folks? Discussion would be welcome. Fergananim

That's nonsense. The flag has a good history behind it and a good symbolism. As can be seen in the article it dates back to 1848 ( approx. ). It also represents a good belief - peace, which I believe nobody can argue against. I may be wrong but as far as i know the Irish flag is older than the India & Cote d'Ivorie. Finally i don't see how you can think the colours look ugly on the sports teams, i think it looks good.

Why in gods name would we in Ireland want to change the national flag? Just because its similar to another country and that it looks terrible in our sports teams doesnt justify why we should change it. This is just as silly as changing the national anthem.

I'm going to suggest something here. I think it is clear that we do not need to have a new flag now. No reason for it. But I can imagine needing a new flag in future. The current flag of the Republic of Ireland has negative connotations to many people, rightly or wrongly. So let us imagine an end to partition and a new 32-county Ireland. Wouldn't the formation of that expanded State be an opportunity for a change, to a new flag, a new look? In keeping with a multi-cultural tradition I came up with the flag and banner below. Green, white, and orange are kept, but instead of the unimaginative tricolour design popularized by revolutionary France, the northwest European cross motif is used. This also hearkens to Ireland's Viking heritage.

A proposed national and merchant flag for a United Ireland

A proposed state and naval flag for a United Ireland

A proposed streamer for a United Ireland

I think it looks nice, anyway. And a long triangular flag streamer is often flown in Nordic countries. This design would facilitate that pleasant patriotic practice. Well. It's just a thought. Evertype 15:34, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Like it. And at least it would solve the problem of trying to work out who's supporting which team in Ireland v. Italy matches :) Vilĉjo 22:41, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

So true. Try The Netherlands vs. France! Allthecoolnamesweretaken (talk) 21:50, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What colour is it?

The flag of republic of ireland is Green white and GOLD, and contrary to an other discussion which states that this is technically incorrect, is in itself technically incorrect. How could the person who wrote that possibly know wheteher it was right or wrong, Unless they were taught Irish history at extensive length in school. I admit that some Irish flags appear more orange than gold but this is most likely due to poor manufacture or over use of dyes. The green and gold panels of the flag don't represent any religous groups(Catholic or Protestant), but is instead supposed to present a free Ireland, free of rule from anyone other than those who are proud and love the whole of Ireland. Also the argument about the Offaly football team having the same colour jersey as the tricolour is also technically correct.

I think it is indeed strange that this article fails to mention the "green, white, and gold". There are some who claim that the green is to represent Ireland, and the white and gold represents the Vatican. Some theories also suggest that the orange was added simply because gold was a difficult colour to print, and that the notion that orange is to represent the Williamite culture is a recent construct of political correctness. It is also quite noticible that observable Irish Tricolours have only recently seemed to standardise in recent years on the tone of orange that is used. In the past many shades from yellow to almost red were visible Jonto 23:44, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Who theorizes about the Vatican colours being a source for the Irish tricolour? Name names, Jonto, and dates. Do you have a source to cite about the difficult of "printing" gold? First, note the description in this publication of the Department of the Taoiseach where the colours are described as "uaine, bán, agus flannbhuí". Flann is an old word meaning 'blood' and buí means 'yellow'. Ó Dónaill's dictionary gives s.v. flannbhuí the definition '(Of colour) Orange.' Note the colour on the front of that publication by the Department of the Taoiseach. I don't know what colour you can call that but orange. Note the text from this Irish Government website http://www.irlgov.ie/aboutireland/eng/irstate.asp: "The National Flag is a tricolour of green, white and orange. The green represents the older Gaelic and Anglo-Norman element in the population, the orange the Protestant supporters of William of Orange, while the white represents a lasting peace between the two traditions. First flown as an emblem of the Young Ireland movement of 1848, the flag did not come into popular use until after the 1916 Rising." Note the Irish version of the same text: "An Bhratach Náisiúnta, is trídhathach í, uaine, bán agus flannbhuí. Ciallaíonn an uaine an chuid is sine den phobal, de shliocht na nGael agus na nAngla-Normannach, agus seasann an flannbhuí do lucht leanúna Protastúnach Liam Oráiste. Cuireann an bán in iúil síocháin bhuan idir an dá thraidisiún. Nochtadh an bhratach seo i gcéaduair mar shuaitheantas Ghluaiseacht Éire Óg in 1848, ach níor glacadh leis go forleathan go dtí tar éis Éirí Amach 1916. " In drafts of the Constitution, the first word chosen to describe the colour was cróchda 'saffron', replaced by órdha (órga) 'golden colour', finally replaced by flannbhuí 'orange'. (Source: Mícheál Ó Cearúil, Bunreacht na hÉireann: A study of the Irish text p. 3.) No mention of the Vatican, and no specifics about what órdha might have meant. Article 7 of Bunreacht na hÉireann states plainly: "An bhratach trí dhath .i. uaine, bán, agus flannbhuí, an suaitheantas náisiúnta. The national flag is the tricolour of green, white and orange." Facts, folks, facts. Evertype 14:06, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok, regarding the 'Gold' - citations please. Here's one to get the ball rolling re: 'Orange' (it's the oldest I could find on google print). It's a review of hearings to the US Congress Committee on Foreign Affairs regarding 'The Irish Question' in 1918. The last section of the page describes the colours of the Tri-Colour (Green, White and Orange) and makes a claim that it was created 125 years earlier by Wolfe Tone. Dbnull 15:10, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The "Green White and Gold" thing is a common misconception. The 1937 Constitution of Ireland is pretty explicit, as Evertype notes above. Further, the supposed link to the Vatican flag (which is in any case white and yellow), was in all likelihood introduced as Unionist propaganda. It would be interesting to include some of these misconceptions/myths in the article if anybody has any good sources. --Ryano 15:41, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The sentence about St. Patrick's flag "The flag was never accepted or popular by a majority of the Irish people, who saw it as a British invention" is not a NPOV. FDR May 21 12:38 PM 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gold

Its a bit strange to place {{fact}} after "occasionally mis-identified as gold". Its of such common knowledge so as to make a citation a trivial matter and citations are not intended for these matters. I think the fact request should be removed. Ultimately if we need a citation then The National Flag, The Protocol Section, Department of the Taoiseach states:

Often different shades of yellow, instead of orange, are seen at civilian functions. This misrepresentation of the National Flag should be actively discouraged.

Gold is just a shade of yellow, and the text could be updated for this. Djegan 18:38, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

But the reference given says "Gold" it does not say "yellow".

Either give your reference or delete the entire issue ClemMcGann 21:04, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Folding

Anyone know the correct way to fold the Flag of Ireland?

"I am not sure if this is entirely correct but this is how I was taught to fold a Tricolour in the Catholic Boy Scouts of Ireland.

1. Fold the orange section over on top of the white section.
2. Turn the flag over and fold the green section over similarly on top of the opposite side of the white section.
3. Fold the flag in half doubling the orange section in on top of itself, leaving the green on both sides of the remaining square.

The idea behind this specific folding pattern is so that the orange and green sections symbolically never touch. The orange section represents Protestant settlers in Ireland (there is a William of Orange connection but I am unsure as to what) and the green section represents the Catholic indigenous. Because of the conflict between the two in the past in the Republic , the white is included in the flag to represent peace, and to separate them when the flag is folded. Presumably the green section is left foremost as it is the National Colour of Ireland. I have seen the flag folded triangularly á la The Stars and Stripes, to my knowledge this is incorrect." -- http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1158607

Is this right or anyone have any other ideas? --Ablaze (talk) 15:05, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Changes

Someone reverted my recent changes on the basis that they were "BIG" and I hadn't discussed them here first. Okay then, who thinks this version is an improvement? Nobody reverted my separated-out Saint Patrick's Flag so now we have two pages discussing that. The separate one has quite a few inlinks now that I've moved them around. The other change I made was to augment the "green white and gold" info. Oh, and mention Northern Ireland flags issue which is where most of "Use in Northern Ireland" should really be. jnestorius^(talk) 19:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I plan on re-adding my reverted changes in a couple of days unless someone comments otherwise here. jnestorius^(talk) 23:15, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Done. jnestorius^(talk) 17:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Are the colours correct?

The image of the tricolour is used throughout Wikipedia, but are the colours, particularly the green, of the correct hue? I think possibly they aren't. Have a look at the discussion on the Flags of World website. Also, look the two versions of the image below (double-click the image). The SVG image is the one used in Wikipedia. I wonder whether we should change to the jpg image. Arcturus 23:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

The colours on the main page of this article are too dark. The green looks like a navy blue, and the orange looks like a red, which equates almost to the French flag. The colours in the image above are more correct. Can someone change the image on the main page to these colours please? I don't know how to do it. Thanks.

We shouldn't use a JPG for a flag. There might be a need to replace the SVG with another which uses the JPG colours. jnestorius^(talk) 00:09, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

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i barely ever see a flag as pale as that?, maybe if it was outside for an age the green is taken from the leinster flag which was used as irelands flag in the past, i would put forward this example as a much closer approximation just as seen in the heritage article [1]or on the new irish rugby jersey,

an actual irish flag today up to date irish rugby jersey any other irish citizens agree?Caomhan27.

See the discussion below Talk:Flag_of_Ireland#.22Precise.22_colours which gives the correct colours as per the government guidelines on the issue.--padraig 17:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

yes but look at every real! flag present in the article and compare it to the colouring pen version created(its just some civil servant numpty who wrote the article it is not by any means sacrosanct.

wikipedia should go by what flag colours are most used in the country even by the taoiseach look at the flags on the mercedes the irish EU flag etc they all correspond to the one i showed not the colouring pen version used in the that pretty poor articleCaomhan27 17:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the Irish Government has a right to specify the proper colours for the nations flag rather then what flag makers use.--padraig 17:24, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Do we trust the Dept. of The Taoiseach or a sweatshop in Asia? As to photos of flags here or elsewhere - forget it! Most photos need to be adjusted to be displayed properly on a computer screen. Sports jerseys? Show me where the IRFU or the FAI or whooever said they'd be basing their shirt colour on the flag colour? Even if they had - materials, sweat, etc., will all cause colour variation. In any case - changing the colours is original research. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 18:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

The government department article as stated is simply a GUIDELINE, in which a person/s in the department was asked to write a little article on the flag, it is not to be taken as gospel. I trust what i see with my eyes which reflect the pictures i have shown and the colours used in wiki articles flag are not those which are the most used in ireland today but even going by it The green should be PMS 347(dark green as stated), and the orange should be PMS 151.[1] does the green look dark nope Surely if you guys live in ireland you will agree that the version of the flag shown in wiki is virtually non existent thats what should really count, its far more important than a simply guidline article, , and this technical jargon is pointless you wont see the flag portrayed as irelands in wiki anywhere on irelands goverment buildings vehicles etc the actual real life flag that flys over the government buildings and dont give me it looks different on the computer it does not i have seen it

even the Encyclopedia Britannica has a far more realistic version http://cache.eb.com/eb/thumb?id=1733 Caomhan27 07:07, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

The blue sky in that picture is very dark - what time of the day was the photo taken? Had it rained at all earlier? How long since the flag had been washed? Yes, I can, and have, seen "darker" flags than the wiki version flying in Ireland. But then I can, and have, also seen much "lighter" versions. Anyway - WP:NOR and WP:VER. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 11:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

yes the temperature was slightly elevated above norm aswell geesh.. So it seems it all boils down to that guideline article no matter what, again Encyclopedia Britannica' version [2] FIFA's flag for ireland looks like such [3] so many contradictions, oh and please stop showing rules WP:IGNORECaomhan27 20:23, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why so many flags?

Surely there should be a specific article describing the flag of the republic of ireland solely, and this should be linked directly from the republic of ireland page. A separate article should be used to discuss the various flags used throughout the island. As this page is linked from the Republic of Ireland page, it should only contain our national flag. Furthermore, the colours, particularly the green are blatantly incorrect.

User:Ali-oops created an SVG file (see above image) but I'm not sure if she merely converted the jpg or started from scratch. In any event, maybe someone should convert the jpg to svg while trying to maintain the colours as shown above. I don't have the s/w to do it, does anyone? I'm reasonably certain the above colours are correct and the version as currently used throughout Wikipedia is wrong. Arcturus 19:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History

I've done a bit of work on a separate history section and have included references to sources. However, they seem to contradict one another when referring to the Irish Free State period. I've left the following paragraph in the article but it is not satisfactory:

Associated with separatism in the past, flown during the Easter Rising of 1916 and capturing the national imagination as the banner of the new revolutionary Ireland, the tricolour came to be acclaimed throughout the country as somewhat of a national flag. To many Irish people, though, it was considered to be a "Sinn Fein flag".[11] It was used by the government in the Irish Free State, but not necessarily with the intention that it should become the national flag:[4]

The government in Ireland have taken over the so called Free State Flag in order to forestall its use by republican element and avoid legislative regulation, to leave them free to adopt a more suitable emblem later.[12]

It continued to be used during the period between 1922 and 1937. However, its use was almost entirely confined to the territory of the Irish Free State.[4] In 1937, its position as the national flag was formally confirmed by the new Constitution of Ireland.[7]

Maybe somebody else could have a look and reconcile the contradicting sources? Cheers. Danny Invincible^Talk|Edits 06:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some things worth including

I feel it would be worth including the following:

• A protocol section. This outlines the main guidelines and procedures for those using the flag.
• A photo. Surely someone has a photo of the flag.
• Interpretations of the meaning of the colours. This should help. Danny Invincible^Talk|Edits 06:23, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Precise" colours

I think its misleading and inaccurate to state the RGB and CMYK values given in this article are "precise". The document specifying the colours from the Department of the Taoiseach here doesn't mention RGB or CMYK values and as the debate in Flags of the world (if link is broken try here )shows there are possible variations. And I don't think that Flags of the world can define the "precise" RGB and CMYK colours either if thats whats implied. The only "precise" colours are the Pantone colours given by the Department of the Taoiseach. I also think there isn't any need to use web safe colours when 'translating' the specific Pantone colours as given by the Dpt of the Taoiseach, as was the case when flags of the world came to their preferred colours--Trounce 17:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps for the RGB and CMYK colours it would be better to say something like "by consensus these are the prefered colours for use on Wikipedia" or something along those lines.

Also, if the "precise" colours were correct why are the RGB colours used in the SVG image of the flag in the flag infobox different to the "precise" colours as stated in the article? SVG flag green is 0-158-96 where as the alleged "precise" colour is 0-153-102. SVG flag orange is 247-127-0 where the alleged "precise" is 255-102-0. :---Trounce 11:45, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The colour values given are incorrect for the, the pantone values are correct but:

Green pantone 347 is CYMK 100-0-86-3 and RGB Hex of #00f723

Orange Pantone 151 is CYMK 0-48-95-0 and RGB Hex of #ff850d according to this [4].--padraig3uk 19:19, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

According to Adobe Illustrator CS2 when the Spot Color option is set to "Use CMYK values from the manufacturer's process books"

it defines Pantone 151 (solid uncoated) as CMYK 0,48,95,0 (orange)

and it defines Pantone 347 (solid uncoated) as CMYK 100,0,86,3 (green)

It does warn that "the results will only give a reasonable match to the actual [Pantone] inks if printing under the conditions recommended by the manufacturer."

The Spot Color Option of Illustrator also give the choice to "Use the Lab values specified by the book manufacturer[Pantone]". It says "Use this to get the best possible match to the actual spot ink when spot colors are converted to process as part of a color-calibrated workflow."

which defines Pantone 151U (uncoated) as RGB 255,130,61 (which = Hex FF823D)

and it defines Pantone 347U (uncoated) as RGB 0,154,99 (which = Hex009A63)

As a result I think the most accurate 'translations' from the precise Pantone colours are:

ORANGE:PANTONE 151

For video dispaly use Pantone 151 = RGB 255,130,61 = Hex FF823D

for print use Pantone 151 = CMYK 0,48,95,0

GREEN:PANTONE 347

For video display use Pantone 347 = RGB 0,154,99 = Hex 009A63

for print use CMYK 100,0,86,3

--Trounce 14:19, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I put a request for some help on the wiki commons Graphic Lab page. See if they can shed any light on the issue.--Trounce 16:07, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Well it doesn't look like any one is too bothered about the precise colors! I was thinking of putting this in the article:

The precise colors of the flag as set by the Department of the Taoiseach are:

Scheme	Green	White	Orange
Pantone	347	Safe	151

From these Pantone colors Wikipedia has extrapolated the RGB, Hex and CMYK as:

Scheme	Green	White	Orange
RGB	0-154-99	255-255-255	255-130-61
Hex	009A63	FFFFFF	FF823D
CMYK	100-0-86-3	0-0-0-0	0-48-95-0

With a reference to this discussion --Trounce 10:55, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I have one problem with that you have given the same CMYK value for both colours, the Green one is wrong.--padraig3uk 14:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Just testing to see if you were awake! ...Sorry about that. I have fixed the mistakes above. (The mistake was the green CMYK. It should have been 100-0-86-3.)--Trounce 15:36, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

RE:CMYK values. Just to clarify, the CMYK colours given here came from a different definition than the RGB/Hex colours (see above). If the RGB/Hex colours here were translated in an imaging application (like Illustrator or Inkscape) to CMYK the results would be different.--Trounce 19:54, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

For the record I changed the colors in SVG image of the flag to match the above RGB/Hex colors.--Trounce 20:09, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I noticed the post at the Commons Graphics Lab and followed the links here to see if I could "shed some light". No, there is no way of exactly translating Pantone colours into CMYK or RGB; the result of any attempt to do this would depend on the individual equipment used. The best bet is probably to go for the RGB values used by the Department of the Taoiseach at [5]. This gives RGB values as:

Green - 0, 150, 111 (#00966F)

Orange - 247, 182, 66 (#F7B642)

Time3000 16:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

That link to the Dpt of Taoiseach doesn't give any specific RGB color information. It only gives Pantone info. I would be very hesitant to use the colors in the embedded flag image in the PDF as the production values in the document are pretty crap to say the least.--Trounce 20:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong title for this page

Ireland is an island and this flag does not apply to the entire island. This article should be called Flag of the Republic of Ireland or Irish Republic Flag, or Flag of Eire. It is not the flag of Ireland, as such, and this is misleading. David Lauder 19:22, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I strongly agree, SqueakBox 19:37, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

And you two totally impartial editors have no axe to grind. You do know how ridiculous you sound. And before you get all offended, save it! Dose not work with me!--Domer48 19:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Attacking editors rather than focussing on content indicates you dont have an argument, pleasse do focus ont he argument and not on editors. The concern is that Ireland and RoI are clearly different entities, please address this, SqueakBox 20:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea who User:Domer48 is, nor do I have an axe to grind. What an odd accusation. I don't think I have ever edited a contentious page related to Ireland, Republic or Ulster, and you will note I have done nothing here other than make a valid point that this is not the legal flag for the entire island of Ireland and should not therefore be entitled as such. David Lauder 20:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Legal, valid, Verified and offical! --Domer48 20:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

No one is saying it is the legal flag for the entire island of Ireland it is the flag of a state named funnily enough Ireland --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 20:17, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

No, in wikipedia its called the Republic of Ireland and Ireland refers specifically to the Island which contains 2 soveriegn states, if you want to change the names of the articles about RoI and Ireland please do so but according to our current naming the name of this article is clearly wrong, SqueakBox 20:22, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

This article is correctly titled, there is no reason to move, as it uses the legal title of the Irish state.--padraig3uk 20:52, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Well move RoI to Ireland then (actually I would dispute that too), SqueakBox 20:54, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I am not impressed that SqueakBox moved this page name without building a concensus and especially when there was an ongoing discussion.--Vintagekits 20:56, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree. A contentious move like this needed a better consensus than this. I'm putting it back meantime; please try to build a consensus before moving it again from a stable location. --John 21:06, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Its the flag of Ireland. See here [6] and here

[7], regards --Domer48 21:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

IMO your first link absolutely confirms my belief that the article is badly named while the second article doesnt contain the word flag, SqueakBox 23:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

If editors read the following link, it becomes quite clear, the flag of Ireland is the tri-colour. Regards

I see SqueakBox has now tagged the article, dispite the fact that there is already a discussion here.--padraig3uk 22:35, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The discussion and the tag should go together, they are not antithetical, lets keep the tag tillt he dispute is resoved please, SqueakBox 23:01, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Should I point out that most of this article refers to pre-partition when the Republic of Ireland didnt even exist so this whole argument is pretty redundant! If you want we could have a separate article on the Irish tricolour/Flag of the Repulic of Ireland.--Vintagekits 22:59, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I certainly wouldnt oppose a name change based on what you say, ie not to Flag of the Republic of Ireland but to another title such as the Irish tricolour, SqueakBox 23:05, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Precedent on Wikipedia would seem to be against that move. The names of articles on national flags are in the format Flag of (Name of country). And, for example, the French Tricoleur redirects to Flag of France FlowerpotmaN (t · c) 00:53, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Which is why my first move to Flag of the Republic of Ireland is, by precedent, the right thing to do, SqueakBox 03:33, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

• This a problem that has arisen, because in the past, some Irish editors, "went with" allowing the sovereign state of Ireland, to be named by it's political description, i.e. Republic of Ireland. ROI is a mere description of the type of politique that is operated in the sovereign state of Ireland. Give a mile, and some editors will want another 10 miles. Gold♥ 23:13, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Well open the discussion on the relevant pages. Where RoI to be moved, for instance to Ireland (state) or Ireland moved to Ireland (island) this article would then be well named, or better still move both articles and make Ireland into a disambig page. That would be a step towards resolving the dispute here, SqueakBox 23:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Then should we move this page to Flag of Ireland (state)? because I was not aware there was a Flag of Ireland (Island) any move is unnecessary. --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 23:22, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Well that is the problem, there is no flag of Ireland, there are 2, the Jack and the tricolour, SqueakBox 23:23, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

There is a flag of Ireland the tricolour the Union Flag is the flag of Northern Ireland --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 23:26, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

This is also being discussed here Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Moving_Flag_of_Ireland_to_Flag_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland.--padraig3uk 23:27, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The flag is commonly called the "flag of Ireland" - thats its most common name - alternatives like "Flag of the Republic of Ireland" (quite uncommon) or "Irish Republic Flag" (their has not been a state called "Irish Republic" for nearly a century, read some history!), or "Flag of Eire" (sorry this is the English wiki and "Eire" (sic) is an Irish name, in any case we are not in the business of manufacturing names!). Flags do not only relate to political systems, they are also cultural. But shall we, for the sake of slavish confirmance, also move President of Ireland to a new title? I think not. See talk:Republic of Ireland for a long history of this type of discussion. Djegan 23:31, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, there is no such place called The Republic of Ireland. It's merely a political description of sovereign Ireland. NI has province status within UK Gold♥ 23:34, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Ireland is an island containing what we call RoI here (Eire etc) and NI, SqueakBox 23:44, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

SqueakBox The Tricolour was used before 1916 by Republicans, you edit is incorrect.--padraig3uk 23:47, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Well the current (ie previous) version doesnt make sense. The national flag of whom exactly? SqueakBox 23:52, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Very quick google (i am not saying numbers endorse - but they are a good indication of the usage before we move it because "i have nothing better to do than misinformed and wrecklessly press the "move" button"):

• "Flag of Eire" -- 734
• "Flag of Republic of Ireland" -- 35,700
• "Flag of Ireland" -- 295,000
• "Irish tricolour" -- 17,100

WP:COMMONNAME Djegan 23:50, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

"i have nothing better to do than misinformed and wrecklessly press the "move" button", please remian WP:Civil, SqueakBox 23:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

That is not an aqusation. Djegan 00:12, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Fokes lets remember here, as well, the fundemental question is the name of the object discussed in the article (i.e. the flag) not the name of the state which it primarily represents! We ARE NOT in the business of contriving and manufacturing names that suite cultural, political, religious, etc beliefs and systems. The question is "what is the name of the flag", not "what is the name of the nation/state". Djegan 23:54, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Well there are number of flags of Ireland, SqueakBox 23:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

This article is called Flag of Ireland (note the singular), whilst "flags of Ireland" (note the plural) is entirely different thing. Do you understand the difference between singular and plural? Djegan 00:04, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Please calm down, SqueakBox 00:09, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I am very claim, its not like I am hitting out, come on now! Djegan 00:12, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Asking rhetorical questions that imply the person being asked is incredibly stupid are either not calm or made in bad faith, SqueakBox 00:15, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Since you mentioned WP:Civil, do you have a point to make on the content? Lets comment on the content not each other. Thanks. Djegan 00:20, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I support David's view that this article is wrongly named as it implies that the tricolour is the flag for the whole island of Ireland, SqueakBox 00:21, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Should we also move Flag of the United States under the same assumption? Djegan 00:07, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

No dispute there, SqueakBox 00:09, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Just looking at the comments here. Polls don't count. (I seem to recall an awful lot of people polled in favour of a despot in Germany in 1933. Did that make them right?) There is no Flag of Ireland. That is a legal fact. You have to decide whether or not Wikipedia is a vehicle for personal opinions or those pushing a political agenda, or not. The flag spoken of in the article has been adopted as the nation-state flag of the Republic (or, if you like, Eire). And that, really, is it. The title of the page should reflect that, not a fiction. David Lauder 08:38, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

The Irish Government see the Tri-Colour the Flag of Ireland. [8] so what should the flag be? --Domer48 09:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

There is a flag of Ireland and it is very much legal Articles 4 and 7 of the Constitution of Ireland make this clear The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland. and The national flag is the tricolour of green, white and orange. --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 10:15, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

The government of the Irish Republic (as it signed itself in the Anglo-Irish Agreements) have amended their constitution, dropping their claim of sovereignty over Northern Ireland. Personally I couldn't care less about all this Irish infighting. All I am saying is it is not legally or internationally recognised as the Flag of all of the island of Ireland and the title should reflect that. David Lauder 10:29, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

But David I think you do care about all this Irish infighting! [9]. Who created the discussion?I resent you characterisation of the participants in this discussion, and consider it validates my initial response! --Domer48 11:56, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Nobody is saying the flag is the flag of the entire island, however "Flag of Ireland" is the correct and legal name. We aren't moving President of Ireland to suit your whims as well, as like "Flag of Ireland" that is the correct name. As the article also covers pre-independence, Ireland is the term that must be used.--Domer48 12:08, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

"Personally I couldn't care less about all this Irish infighting." -- the editor is showing his true colours here, the editors choice of words here demonstrates that neutrality and evenhandedness, in this discussion, are not among his attributes. Djegan 12:29, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I have no Irish connexions at all. I am just stating the obvious. You are a little too touchy. David Lauder 12:33, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Of course Dave is fair and neutral when it comes to Irish republicanism....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Raymond_Gilmour Delete - the most absurd non-notable IRA member stub yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Antoine_MacGiolla_Bhrighde Delete unless it is Wikipedia's intention to carry a biography of every dedicated murderer of innocent civilians who ever existed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Diarmuid_O%27Neill Delete unless it is Wikipedia's intention to carry a biography of every dedicated murderer of innocent civilians who ever existed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Martin_McCaughey Delete: another article glorifying a subversive terrorist in Britain

Well Dave, --Domer48 12:45, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Well I think that when you mention the birth of Nazi Germany and the Flag of Ireland in the same sentence your hardly convincing as "fair and neutral" -- rather its "absurd". Djegan 12:48, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Dave, "I seem to recall an awful lot of people polled in favour of a despot in Germany in 1933. Did that make them right?" - I also seem to recall an awful lot of people polled in favour of a despot in England in 1979. Did that make them right? --Domer48 12:55, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Dave, I resent the accusation and implication in your comment! [10] A bit of honesty would not go amiss here. While I consider our conversation here, [11], to be very amicable, I have grave differences with you one the Flag page. Two separate issues, two separate approaches. Do not misrepresent me in such a way. A bit of courtesy, respect for difference, and above all, a bit of honesty! --Domer48 14:17, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

• Just to re-state what seems to have been touched upon; the political/constitutional name of the state in question is "Ireland" (which also happens to refer to the geographical entity that is the island as a whole, but I do not feel that that is relevant here). The term "Republic of Ireland" arose, via legislation, as a description (and is not an official title) of the state. Thus, it would naturally follow that the flag's title is the "Flag of Ireland" and, similarly, the current title of the article is entirely correct. Danny Invincible^Talk|Edits 18:10, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

• There is no need to change the title of this article. When SqueakBox says, in his posting on the Admin noticeboard, that the name of the state is Republic of Ireland and the name of the island is Ireland he is of course only referring to the names of the Wikipedia articles and NOT to the legal names, but maybe he forgets that. Ireland is in a curious and unique situation where the name of the state and the island, of which it is part, are one and the same word. This has caused some disagreements in naming the article about the state, but that argument does not apply here. The flag described is the one for the state and the official name of the state, in English, is Ireland and if you want to link to the state fo that flag, you will wikilink to the article named Republic of Ireland. Deciding to name the Wikipedia article for the state by its constitutional description as Republic of Ireland has no bearing here and in it very first sentence clarifies the naming issue. Just keep the current name of this flag article. It is accurate. ww2censor 23:11, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

The encyclopaedia is being hi-jacked by sectarianism, calling this "The Flag of Ireland". Besides the historical inaccuracy (the RoI no longer claims territory of another sovereign nation), we're making a fundamental mistake choosing the path that offends a minority. Supporters of calling it the "Flag of Ireland" have to work at getting consensus, not pretend it's been achieved, when it plainly has not. PalestineRemembered 16:32, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

The page should be moved. The Republic of Ireland is the soverign state, and Northern Ireland is a part of the United Kingdom. They just happen to share an island called Ireland. The flag of the republic of ireland is only used for the republic of Ireland, which does not encompass the entire ISLAND of Ireland. Also, there is no need to move the president of ireland or national academy of whatever of Ireland to pages that have teh republic of ireland in their name. Only the Republic of Ireland is a sovereign state. Northen Ireland does not have its own political leader at the international level nor does it have any national academies since it is not a nation. Move it. --Patar knight 01:50, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion

• Flag of the Republic of Ireland- the flag in the context as the national flag of the Republic of Ireland
• Irish Tricolour- flag in the context of Irish history, Irish nationalism and republicanism, use by Celtic FC fans etc etc etc

Rationale: splits the two topics to acceptable limits and areas Precedents: Union Flag and Flag of the United Kingdom Other: ensures we have a Flag of X for every country

Astrotrain 15:00, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

On reading WP:NPOV#Article_naming that (two articles, a pov fork) would be forbidden. Djegan 15:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Precedent: UK example Astrotrain 15:15, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Astrotrain the name of the State is 'Ireland' not Republic of Ireland which is only a discription of the form of government, the article as it stands is correctly titled.--padraig3uk 15:08, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely not Astrotrain. Flag of Ireland is the correct and legal name ;)--Domer48 15:10, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

But while we are proposing to move Flag of Ireland to Flag of the Republic of Ireland should we also move President of Ireland to President of the Republic of Ireland, and National University of Ireland to National University of the Republic of Ireland to suite our convinction (shall I give other examples of made-up names)? Come on people are we really that bitter that we would calm that their is no Flag of Ireland, that is, a flag of a state constitutionally (i.e. legally) called "Ireland" in the English language? Djegan 15:11, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Why don't we consider the proposal without the name implication, which is partially redundant because the country is already at Republic of Ireland. I don't really care to be honest and I generally use Ireland (eg I created List of Irish flags) Astrotrain 15:15, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Well personally I am not bitter at all and am not sure what bitterness has to do with this, SqueakBox 15:18, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I have considered the proposal, and it has no merit, the article is correctly titled, as for the Republic of Ireland article that should be moved.--padraig3uk 15:20, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Their is a lot of merit in that (moving Republic of Ireland). Too many arguements have been made here that "Flag of Ireland" is a made-up term, forced here by a minority, even when the constitution of a soverign state gives very clear endorsement of it by naming the state, in English, simply "Ireland". Djegan 15:30, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I would support any proposal to move Republic of Ireland to its proper title.--padraig3uk 15:39, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Please propose it on the correct talk page and I for one will happily discuss, SqueakBox 15:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

How about something like this-

Ireland stays as The Island

Ireland (state) instead of ROI

Ireland (disambiguation)

Gold♥ 15:51, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it should be like this.

Ireland For the state

Ireland (island) for the island

Ireland (disambiguation)

--padraig3uk 16:02, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Sounds okay to me as I would have thought that the state is more notable than the island but you cant get consensus here, only on the talk RoI and Ireland pages, please make the suggestion there and then if that gets agreed to I'll remove the POV tag here, SqueakBox 16:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal

I have made a proposal to move the Republic of Ireland to Ireland See:

Talk:Republic_of_Ireland#Proposal_to_move_this_article_to_Ireland.--padraig3uk 17:48, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

That's an idiotic idea, dragging the encyclopaedia into a violent sectarian mess. It's never very easy to think of exact analogy - but consider an article on a subject that includes both Mexicans and citizens of the US, but then entitling it with something likw "Americans believe XXXXX". That would be highly offensive to patriotic Mexicans. The project must not go down such a road towards madness. PalestineRemembered 16:43, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

This is the fourth place that you have either called this "sectarian" or based on a "terrorism worse than 9/11" - can you please explain what these comments have to do with this discussion or stop using such emotive language as I consider it bordering on uncivil and trolling!--Vintagekits 16:46, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Agree Vintagekit. The language is disproportionate. Djegan 16:51, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Ireland is the name of the island, not the country. --Patar knight 01:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Ireland is the name of the Island and the 26 county state.--padraig3uk 03:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

What I meant to say is that Ireland should be the name of the article for the island, not the country, for POV reasons. --Patar knight 23:14, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit]

Someone has been messing around with it, appearing a question mark throughout a multitude of articles. Londo06 14:14, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning of the flag

Thomas Francis Meagher stated "The white in the centre signifies a lasting truce between the 'Orange' and the 'Green', and I trust that beneath its folds the hands of the Irish Protestant and the Irish Catholic may be clasped in generous and heroic brotherhood."

Saying that the colour orange in the flag is to do with William of Orange is not true. Protestants are not all supporters of William of Orange.

(Paddy 16:25, 1 November 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Meaning of the flag

Thomas Francis Meagher stated "The white in the centre signifies a lasting truce between the 'Orange' and the 'Green', and I trust that beneath its folds the hands of the Irish Protestant and the Irish Catholic may be clasped in generous and heroic brotherhood."

Really he means peace in general for the Protestant and Catholic community. I don't think using William of Orange as why he choose the colour orange for the flag is fair.

(Paddy 16:28, 1 November 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Colours

I just checked out the source for the Pantone colours, and it seems terribly vague--- are the colours referenced, coated or uncoated? Not that it should be using print specs for what is a TEXTILE artifact, but still. ButterStick (talk) 11:11, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I was just wondering why are you taking Pantone uncoated colours instead of coated?? They give very different results.
Uncoated: #009A64 #FFFFFF #FF823D
Coated: #009543 #FFFFFF #FF7300
Xagasi (talk) 12:02, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is the Flag of the Republic

This is the flag of the Republic of Ireland - given the ambiguity of the word 'Ireland' the article in its current state is not meeting NPOV credentials, as to suggest that it is the flag of the entire island is highly controversial indeed, and would not be agreed by by the majority of the Northern Irish population. Jonto (talk) 23:10, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

What piece of land is symbolised by the flag is ambiguous. What piece of land is denoted by the term "Ireland" is also ambiguous. The ambiguities and attendant controversies parallel each other: to my mind, that makes the article's current title appropriate. "Ireland" is the official name of the state, so the title is not technically inaccurate. I agree that Unionists may well dislike and disagree with the terminology; however, by the same token, "Flag of the Republic of Ireland" would offend many Nationalists and represent the opposite POV, even though it is also accurate. jnestorius^(talk) 16:11, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Union flag

I fail to see why the entire paragraph about the Union flag on Local Government premises in Northern Ireland is there. How is a section of such length on the Union Flag Germain to an article on the Tricolour? Its a matter for Northern Ireland flags issue.Traditional unionist (talk) 21:35, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest Flag of Ireland, (republic of) which would help clarify the point that it is not and never has been, the flag of the whole island. The only flag I know of which has been is the Cross of St. Patrick. Acorn897 (talk) 02:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)