Talk:Fiador (tack)

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[edit] A Disagreement

The fiador knot does not typically attach a fiador to a bosal. The fiador knot ends up with two loops on the front end, and a loop and two tails on the back. The double loop runs forward, where a bottle sling is formed. This is the knot which attaches the fiador to the bosal. The double tails from the backside of the knot pass over the poll, where they are passed through the remaining loop in a sheet bend near the left cheek of the horse. (See "traditional vaquero fiador" image at[1])

I have seen the fiador knot used this way on internet how-to-tie-it pages. Those are not adequate sources, of course. --Una Smith (talk) 06:32, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I have never seen the term fiador used to describe the lower connecting strap on a halter. This u-shaped vs. y-shaped thing is new to me. I say a fiador is a type of throatlatch. Anywhere I have seen parts of the halter described the lower connecting strap has never been called a fiador. Extrapolation of what an Argentinian website calls a fiador to a standard halter seems like a stretch. Rope halters often use the fiador knot, but that does not mean that they have a fiador. [2] I would be in favor of describing the term primarily as it is used in English language-speaking countries on the English language Wikipedia. Other uses are obviously appropriate if referenced.

Standard Argentine halters have a part that looks like a fiador and is called a fiador. --Una Smith (talk) 06:32, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I have never seen the word fiador (or the word frentera for that matter) used to describe Australian gear. Please reference it or take it out.

Where have you seen reference to a fiador used on a bridle in the US? (Or anywhere?) A bridle is a headstall and bit. A fiador is used with a hackamore, not with a bit. Please reference it or take it out.

As we are always reminded below, encyclopedic content must be verifiable. Most of this article is completely different from what I have ever read or seen about a fiador, except on Wiktionary (where you wrote the entry).

Look for Hackamore Reinsman by Ed Connell or These were the Vaqueros by Arnold Rojas for the definitive word on the fiador.--Getwood (talk) 07:05, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

In case there is confusion, I wasn't the one who created those problems, but Una keeps reverting large parts of all my edits. And I have no argument with your statements, and I have been insisting that the material is original research, but Una insists it's correct and I am getting sick and tired of fighting with her. But I will make changes per a rough 2-1 consensus on these points. Montanabw^(talk) 16:00, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

2-1 consensus is an oxymoron. --Una Smith (talk) 06:28, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Not necessarily, read WP:CON. Dreadstar † 15:29, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I am just back from vacation, so may not be completely up to speed here..... upon initial reading, I would add this: keep in mind "fiador" and "fiador knot" are two different things. I am still not clear on why this article is necessary.... is it describing the knot? Or the part of the hackamore? Both of which already have their own article page, yes? --AeronM (talk) 00:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Welcome back AeronM. I would be satisfied with an expanded section under hackamore with the heading fiador. This accessory is already described there somewhat. A photo could be included for clarification. From what I understand, the fiador knot is named for its original use on the fiador. I agree that the distinction between f. and f. knot should be reinforced. The fiador knot is definitely much more commonly seen these days on rope halters... Maintaining the fiador knot page and rolling this one into hackamore would work for me. Una may disagree, as she feels that "fiador" has a bigger definition that is being pushed aside in favor of a more narrow usage of the term by the Californio crowd. She created this page, and feels strongly that the Argentinian definition should be included in order to maintain a worldwide view. Before any attempt is made to retire this page, she should have her say. She and I haven't been in agreement on some of these things, but I respect her and hope that a true consensus can be reached.--Getwood (talk) 02:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm with Getwood on the general content issues. But on the other hand, the description of fiadors got so long in the hackamore article that I am OK with the break out here. Montanabw^(talk) 23:59, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

It's too bad they couldn't have come up with a seperate name for the knot. Would have saved us all this trouble! So I guess my vote would be for a section on the Rope Halters page (oops, is there one?) on the fiador knot, and a section on the Hackamore page for the fiador..... but I am no fiador expert, so maybe it warrants it's own page... I don't know. Oh wait, now that it's all coming back to me... I forgot that the south american fiador thingy is on the front of the face and is it's own unique gizmo.... hmmm, ok, in that case, I think I do vote for a fiador page. Then we can mention all the types of fiadors, even if it duplicates somewhat on the other pages. --AeronM (talk) 01:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

PS pay no mind to my edit summary, which my computer put in there on it's own when all I typed was "Adding." Sorry, I will try to control my computer better form now on. --AeronM (talk) 01:21, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Someone keeps rewriting the article to narrow the description of fiador. Take a look at some of the external links I provide below and you'll see the thing called a fiador throughout the Spanish-speaking world has a complicated history and most of that history has nothing to do with "hackamore reinsmen". --Una Smith (talk) 02:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Some external links

Fiador on a bridle, in the minimal neck collar style: here and here. Fiador on a bridle, in the "complete" style: here. This looks like just a halter worn over a bridle, but the tradition is to wear both, the fiador on top. Here, the fiador has its own noseband supported by a frentera; in Argentina this variant is often called a bozal. Note in both styles the fiador has its own browband and is worn over the bridle. In a third style, the fiador is a neck collar tied to the bitted bridle by its browband here. In yet a fourth style, seen in Mexico here and in the Californios tradition, the fiador is a neck collar tied to the bosal of a jaquima / hackamore. --Una Smith (talk) 02:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Those were cool photos.... we need to get some photos in this article... I think it would help alleviate some confusion.... --AeronM (talk) 02:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

What matters here is making it really clear what designs are used in South America and what are used in North America. This "someone" isn't narrowing down the article, this "someone" is trying to avoid confusing readers. Fiador as used in English doesn't necessarily encompass everything the word encompasses in Spanish=speaking countries. Here, the neck rope on a bosalito would not be called a fiador, nor is the connecting strap on a halter called a fiador. Similarly, to compare, in the USA we don't call a halter a "headcollar." As long as regional differences are clear and we don't confuse people, that is what matters here. At least to me, Montanabw^(talk) 04:15, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with AeronM that photos would be great for explaining the fiador. To me there are two usages of the term: there is the Argentinian gaucho one, and the vaquero/Californio style. To be honest, I'm still having trouble with "throughout the Spanish-speaking world." The first images are all gaucho style. Very cool stuff, and I certainly agree that what they are calling a fiador is not what is seen elsewhere. Including in Mexico, where the referenced image is of a jaquima used with a fiador, essentially identical to that used in the US. The contention that the Argentinian style is a more important one than the vaquero style is a pointless argument. The article is currently muddy because of this attempt to universalize the description. In my mind, the gaucho style should be secondary in an English language article, as the cowboy style one should be secondary on the Spanish language site. Sure, both can be on both. But, right now that is leading to confusion.--Getwood (talk) 22:25, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

You said it better than I could. We have one word, describing essentally two different things. Montanabw^(talk) 21:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like an apt moment for a split + dab. Antelan^talk 06:11, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I would be perfectly happy if this article confined itself to the North American fiador found on the bosal style hackamore. What's going on here, in my humble opinion, is an attempt to try and universalize things that really cannot be universalized. They are related, and may have a common source somewhere in antiquity, but they are not identical. I think that's the crux of the debate. Antelan, if you have further suggestions as to how this could be done, please feel free to help us out. Montanabw^(talk) 06:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry, I think I used too much Wikislang there. My idea is this: if, indeed, the idea cannot be universalized, then we're in a situation where there is one word describing two essentially different things. If that's the case, there can be a fiador disambiguation page, pointing to the two separate articles. If that makes sense, what do you think? Antelan^talk 06:33, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Why stop at two? There are two (or more?) styles of fiador in South America. The article mentions one, not two, because I haven't gotten around to writing about the second one. For that matter, Bridles are all related but (quoting Montanabw above) "they are not identical", there are many different styles; by this reasoning, we need a separate page for each style, eh? After we split Fiador (tack), we can split Hackamore; that article needs to be split far more than this one does. --Una Smith (talk) 06:54, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

From where I'm sitting, that seems to be a pretty sarcastic response to my honest attempt at a helpful response to your question about this article that you posted elsewhere. Please tell me I'm just not getting the humor. Antelan^talk 07:18, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Antelan, there is no humor, sad to say. This is a longstanding problem that is causing edit disputes across several articles, particularly on horse headgear, primarily with Una on one side and me on the other, though others have weighed in from time to time. See the talk pages of talk:chaps, talk:hackamore, talk:bitless bridle and talk:frentera. There is another one simmering on a low boil at talk:canter. You may also want to consult with admins such as Rlevse and Dreadstar, who have tried (in vain) to help in the past. I have given up on understanding Una's motivations, but for myself, I have deep concerns that she has an insufficient understanding of mainstream viewpoints on horse equipment in the English-speaking world and from what I can tell seems to be trying to somehow insert a theory about Spanish equipment designs that is, at best, original research, and at worst is a fringe theory. We have gone to mediation over the pronunciation of "chaps," we both have at times gotten pretty heated in our discussions with one another, and I won't even bother to discuss behavior issues because we both seem to be equally convinced that the other is the one who is mostly in the wrong. All I want to do at this point is have neutral people babysit these articles where we are both editing because it keeps things from getting personal and we both behave better with adult supervision. (sigh). We are capable of reaching consensus, but at a ridiculous amount of time and effort over things that are relatively obscure. Speaking only for myself, this conflict has been running almost two months now, and it is making my wikipedia experience quite miserable. Montanabw^(talk) 22:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)