Talk:Fernando Henrique Cardoso

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How do I list foreing University names? Do I have to translate the word refering to "University" and the city, too?

Thanks all. Sorry if my english is bad.

The general convention seems to be to simply use the local name (ie, in the native language) unless there's a widely used English form of the name. --Brion

Contents 1 What about the negatives? 2 Right-wing parties 3 Cardoso's government 4 Ruth Cardoso 5 What will this debate accomplish? 6 Collor 7 Pathetic 8 Dependency Theory?

[edit] What about the negatives?

It seems obvious that the author of this article is a fan of Cardoso. I would like to read a more balanced opinion on him. What are the things he did wrong? Are Lula's allegations of corruption against Cardoso unfounded? -- Ayo

Ayo, there are no allegations of corruption made by Lula against Cardoso. Could you explain your sources or quote where you have seen that? Elk

There are many little scandals, namely the connections between the corrupt judge Nicolau dos Santos and Cardoso's presidency secretary, Eduardo Jorge; some misusing of BNDES money when selling the state companies. The worst, however, could be the cash-for-vote scandal when passing the Reelection amendment. Another terrible negative - although not a corruption scandal - is the famous Apagão, in the end of the 90's, when Brazil was threatened by blackout. Anyway (read the topics bellow) this article has few things (bad or good) about FHC's presidency. José San Martin 15:35, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

The Nicolau case has nothing to do with the executive branch, but the Eduardo Jorge case was really something that should have been investigated in depth. I never heard about a cash-for-vote for FHC, so I'd be interested in seeing stuff on it. I agree the article is a plain overview. Let's see if we can improve, shall we?--Dali-Llama 15:40, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I was under the impression that, in his own self-defense, Lula's former Chief of Staff, José Dirceu, mentioned Eduardo Jorge as someone who had been "wrongfully accused" when Cardoso was in office (the implication of the argument was that he, Dirceu, should not be equally "wrongfully accused" of crimes he claims he did not committ). Cardoso BTW fired Eduardo Jorge. On the other hand, the cash-for-vote scandal involving a small number of Congressmen from the northern state of Acre has never been directly linked either to Cardoso or any top official in his party or administration (it is nothing like for example Lula's cash-for-votes or "mensalão" scandal). In fact, in retrospect and in view of all that has surfaced over the past 12 months about the Lula administration, Cardoso's government is now seen in Brazil as surprisingly "clean" as far as corruption goes. 161.24.19.82 14:36, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Right-wing parties

I moved this discussion here

[edit] Cardoso's government

As I said above, this is not an article about a president. FHC was president for eight years, and, bad or good, he was somewhat important. Many things changed during those eight years.

I suggest a little effort to make it more than a bigger stub. Let's take Lula's article as a base. José San Martin 16:02, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ruth Cardoso

The article lists the wife as Ruth Cardoso, which is correct, but the link is incorrectly given as Ruth Cardoso, the chess player. That entry talks about Ruth Cardoso (the chess player) as being confused with Ruth Cardoso (the President's wife)!

[edit] What will this debate accomplish?

Chicocvenancio, the term "accomplished" has nothing to do with original research, for the term, in itself, is quite neutral. The three definitions that Merriam-Webster (the leading dictionary in the US) provide are:

1 : to bring about (a result) by effort <have much to accomplish today> 2 : to bring to completion : FULFILL <we can accomplish the job in an hour> 3 : to succeed in reaching (a stage in a progression) <would starve before accomplishing half the distance -- W. H. Hudson died 1922>

The past tense form of the second definition is in use in the current form of the article. The sentence in question, "he is also an accomplished sociologist," does not qualify the relative value of Cardoso's work--it merely states that he has accomplished quite a bit as an academic.

The article has already provided citations which state that he has been active on a number of prestigious campuses, including Princeton, Brown University the École des Hautes Études en Sciences Sociales, the Collège de France, Paris-Nanterre University, the University of Cambridge, Stanford University and the University of California, Berkeley. There is much more to his (academic) career, but, that, in itself, is quite an accomplishment.

I would understand your grievances if the term in question were "successful" (as it can be argued that the application of his sociological ideals was disastrous) or "exceptional" (as that would suggest an overwhelmingly pro-Cardoso bias), but your opposition to "accomplished" is something that I frankly do not understand. --(Ptah, the El Daoud 01:53, 30 April 2007 (UTC))

My opposition is not to accomplished, to successful, to exceptional or any other term, nor is it to FHC himself(at least no in WP). My opossition is to any term not associated to FHC by a realiable resource as per WP:OR, as it specifically says that you should not make a synthesis from Webster and Cardoso's work, unless some reliable source made it and you cite it.Chico 16:08, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, Chico... I have cited an article from Newsweek International (hosted by MSNBC News) which uses the exact language of the sentence (the sentence in its entirety reads, "An accomplished sociologist, he was banished from the classroom at the University of São Paulo after the 1964 coup.") If you still have qualms, I have another source (Brown University) which describes him as "a renowned scholar in sociology and political science." --(Ptah, the El Daoud 00:40, 1 May 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Collor

it´s necessary to mention FHC followed Collor´s macroeconomic agenda and that FHC had its road all preapered by Collor´s. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 11:02, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

It's one thing to mention it in the Collor article. It's another to do it in the FHC article. The weight given is different. It's not enough to copy and paste text from other articles into this. It doesn't fit. It sounds like you're advertising Collor, which regardless of merit, doesn't make for an NPOV article. In this case, the inflation figures are valid, since they reflect his government and his economic policy. Talking about red tape, imports, and "Revolution" is not appropriate in the FHC article. It's undue weight That's why I'm suggesting the Collor stuff just stay out of the FHC article. Otherwise, let's propose the changes here, in the talk page, before we start changing the main article--Dali-Llama 11:27, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Absolotely not. Most of FHC´s legacy is due to the success with Plano real, which we all know the origins, and its aconomic basis. It´s absolutely necessary to mention that. I dont´why you think all articles are yours and we all should obey you. That´s quite a communist behavior. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 14:20, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

HA! "Communist behavior"! That's funny. It's like I'm back in the 60s all of a sudden. I promised myself a long time ago that I wouldn't discuss my personal politics on Wikipedia, and I won't start now. My politics or yours shouldn't matter. Policy should. In this case, of your original text, one part in this case is perfectly applicable: citing inflation rates from 1994 to 2000. The other is a mixture of Undue Weight, Original Research and Synthesis. And the commonly accepted theory is that the Plano Real had nothing to do with the Plano Collor. Both had the same goal, but radically different strategies. Plano Collor sought to stop inflation by restricting financial movement (the "freeze"). Plano Real used de-indexation to stop inflation. One worked. The other didn't. The problem with saying the Collor plan ended hyperinflation is that they only managed to bring it down to 20% a month, which is still considered hyperinflation by most economists (see the hyperinflation article) and in the end required an entirely new approach to kill it (Plano Real). And again, my issue with what you're saying is that this is not a commonly accepted theory, and therefore it requires more than just citing a source. Once again: Exceptional claims require exceptional sources. It's not enough for you to Google "FHC deve a Collor" and put the first college paper you can find. To include it, you'd need an exceptional body of evidence, as it is not the commonly understood interpretation.--Dali-Llama 15:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pathetic

How can one imagine Palno Real move forward without privatization, free trade, reforms.... Ludovicapipa ^yes? 19:42, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know. You tell me. You're the one trying to make a point. The burden of proof is on you. And you don't need to call me pathetic to advance your point.--Dali-Llama 20:24, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

The text I wllpublish is already there. I will translate as soon as I can, maybe in the weekend. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 00:26, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll be waiting.--Dali-Llama 00:40, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dependency Theory?

It seems like this article should, rather than just mentioning that Cardozo was an academic, mention the contribution of his work on dependency theory, i.e., Dependency and Development in Latin America. Given the importance the theory played, it is probably as notable as his time as President of Brazil.