Talk:Extreme metal
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This article was nominated for deletion on 3/27/2006. The result of the discussion was keep. |
Contents |
[edit] Mainstream
i predict soomeday that extreme metal will cease to exist except for in the form of brutal death metal and all other extreme genras will be mainstream
- probably true, but by then we'll probably have even MORE extreme music. Also extreme metal will probably be diluted some as it becomes mainstream. --Eel 23:54, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, as far as I'm concerned I don't see extreme metal evolving into mainstream... Do you??? I mean, let's face it, there aren't that many people who listen to, say, black metal or viking metal, and the numbers aren't changing so fast that they will become mainstream in the near future... --IronChris 01:56, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Why would brutal death metal be the only that wont cease to exist? Death metal is the most mainstream of the extreme metal genres today (Cannibal Corpse, Six feet under, Necrophagist etc etc.). While the most extreme subgenre is probably Funeral Doom, Black Metal or Grindcore.
It'll split in two. There will be a 'mainstream' which will probably be a conglomeration of all of the genres of extreme metal into an undistinct, populist sound that channels the aesthetic elements of extreme metal into more regular song structures. There's little chance of any individual extreme metal genre going overground individually, without any mitigation of the sound. There'll be an underground, reactionary, purist reclaimation of the original ideas and sound of extreme metal, i.e. going back to the roots of the individual genres. Really all of the important genres of extreme metal said everything they had to say by the late 1990's, so this has already happened to a point (look at Dimmu Borgir, or QAncient's career as a microcosm of this.
And arguing about which genere's are the most 'extreme' is pointless, circular and somewhat moronic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thelzdking (talk • contribs) 19:45, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Metalcore
Is metalcore considered extreme metal?
I don't really think so. What bothers me instead is Groove metal with bands like Lamb of God and Chimaira and Machine Head. Are those bands and bands that play like them considered extreme metal?? likelightoflies 24:01, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
No. This is mainstream "metal", which is just rock dressed up and marketed as metal. These bands are not REMOTELY extreme.
How can it be said that Lamb of God is not extreme metal? I would argue that they are as "extreme" as most death metal or black metal that I have heard. Personally I would classify this band as extreme metal.
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- Lamb of God are metalcore/groove metal. Not extreme... Their lyrics are everything you'd expect from a mainstream band too. Geez... Isilioth 04:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Necessary
Is this article really necessary as it adds really little content? Spearhead 19:03, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
- To be honest, I find that extreme metal and its numerous genres is under-represented on the heavy metal music page. Maybe a section could be added on that page, though it is already pretty long. I think this article could be expanded, but it would then face the risk of repeating what is already written on the pages for each genre (death metal, black metal, viking metal, etc.). Still, it would be useful to have a page that would have all this information, even in a summarized form, to lead to all of these individual genre articles. In its present form however, it is indeed pretty useless.
- In my opinion, it should be expanded to detail the emergence and characteristics of all the genres it includes, as there is no other page that describes and links them all in detail. If such a page exists I haven't found it. If another page isn't created, a greater section should at least be written on the heavy metal music page. --IronChris 04:52, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
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- one of the problems I have with WP currently regarding heavy metal and its genres, is that we have tons of articles but mosts are crap. Hell, most of the articles refer to made-up things, like cybercore. I've put a couple up for AFD, speedied a few, redirected some, etc. Cleaning up some good articles is a next step, which honestly is much more difficult Spearhead 07:29, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- Articles on metal, metal subgenres, and related extreme/underground moosic always turn into a big useless mess, because metalheads have a strong tendency toward militant, uncompromising positions on everything, so every article gets slogged down with references to pet bands and assertions that _____ isn't "true" _____ [insert "Cannibal Corpse" and "death metal," "Nine Inch Nails" and "industrial," ad nauseam]. Hrrgh. I don't know what can be done about it and I've pretty much given up trying to clean them up. MrBook 16:32, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- one of the problems I have with WP currently regarding heavy metal and its genres, is that we have tons of articles but mosts are crap. Hell, most of the articles refer to made-up things, like cybercore. I've put a couple up for AFD, speedied a few, redirected some, etc. Cleaning up some good articles is a next step, which honestly is much more difficult Spearhead 07:29, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- I think this article is necessery, since some bands such as Children of Bodom are difficult to categorise in narrow genres like black or melodic death metal. They could simply be labeled as extreme metal. --Izzy999 15:37, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
- this goes for many bands esp if they changes styles rigorlously; eg: Opeth, Carcass, Paradise Lost, Nightfall. Spearhead 21:43, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Shouldnt sludgecore/sludgedoom bands (for example Electric Wizard, Eyehategod)be mentioned in this page? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.157.43.92 (talk • contribs) .
I came to this talk page to suggest that it might be a good idea to simply convert this page to a disambiguation page, but I think IronChris's suggestion is better. Explaining how extreme metal developed while linking the various subgenres in a meaningful way would be quite helpful, I think. Unfortunately, as the article is now, it is fairly useless and duplicates information already found elsewhere. Furthermore, it's vague and contradicts itself. Extreme metal is characterized by a fast or slow tempo? There is absolutely no need to list every kvlt metal subgenre you can think of on this page. I suggest only listing thrash metal, death metal, and black metal. Leave the tiny subgenres to those pages, please. Any thoughts? --DalkaenT/C 10:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
This article is POV by its title. When is metal extreme enought to be extreme metal. Also the "Structure" section is highly ambiguous and non-descriptive. Spearhead 21:43, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
- You're right. In fact I don't think extreme metal is a genre. Metal can be extreme, but that doesn't make it a genre. If extreme metal is a genre then 'fast metal', 'intelligent metal', 'soft metal' could also be genres. I think this article has low quality content because nobody can come up with quality content. There is no quality content for this 'genre'.Emmaneul 02:53, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
- I agree; I voted "keep" in the AFD, hoping that this article would be expanded for the reasons I stated above, but it's still pretty crappy. I regret that I don't have the time and necessary knowledge to expand it. Maybe it should be turned into a disambig page for now, if no one is ready to take upon themselves the task of rewriting it entirely. IronChris | (talk) 22:11, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Extreme metal isn't a genre, lets' get that cleared up first, folks. Extreme metal is a bunch of metal genres (and their fusion genres, etc.) that share an 'extreme element'. Thrash metal isn't extreme, so does anyone have any idea why it is listed as such? -Unlight_14
[edit] Thrash Metal
Question, the Extreme music article states that "An example of what was once deemed (or would have been deemed) extreme style that is no longer considered so is thrash metal..." , while it links to this article, in the note about it, it doesn't mention Thrash. So one of these pages needs editting, but which one? It's a somewhat minor point, but it's inconsistant. Dace59 13:29, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Intro sentence
- "Extreme metal is a broad term for metal subgenres of a more aggressive style than traditional metal."
This is a rather worthless intro sentence, since "traditional metal" redirects to "heavy metal music", and extreme metal is a part of heavy metal. The purpose of an intro is to summarize what the article is about, and this sentence does not do that. Can someone come up with a better intro? IronChris | (talk) 21:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
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- ..."heavy metal" now has two distinct meanings: either the genre and all of its subgenres, or the original heavy metal bands of the 1970s and 80s style sometimes dubbed "traditional metal". -Heavy metal music 68.47.1.63 17:14, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
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- Well... basically, from the examples the page lists, extreme metal is any genre of metal that isn't the earlier metal bands, like Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, etcetera... So maybe "Extreme metal is a term which differentiates latter forms of heavy metal music from the progenitors of the genre." Or something in that vein? That's all I'm getting from what's on the page so far. --Dayn 09:58, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
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Yes, but still you must also exclude Power Metal, Hair Metal ect...
[edit] Crossover thrash, deathcore, Swedecore
Why are these being removed? Crossover thrash is a thrash metal/hardcore punk fusion, deathcore is a mix of metalcore (or hardcore punk) and death metal, and Swedecore is a melodic death metal/metalcore fusion. 68.47.1.63 17:14, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- Remedial solution: Create an extreme hardcore article. These subgenres are just hardcore with some death, black, or thrash traits. At the end of the day, they are not death, black, or thrash metal.--Danteferno 23:23, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
- They're far from hardcore, which I'm guessing you've never bothered to look into. But, even if they were closer to hardcore punk, the genres were listed under "Fusion genres, subgenres, and variations," not the main "Extreme metal genres," and even you admit they have "death, black, or thrash traits." Scene does not make a genre. 68.47.1.63 14:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
- The genres you keep erroneously putting in are associated with metalcore and hardcore, not extreme metal. You admitted this in the post above asking why they keep being removed (and you also answered your own question.) EM fusion genres are deathrash, blackened death, or blackened thrash, not Swede-CORE, MelodicDeath-CORE or AtTheGates-CORE. Such inclusion belongs in a separate article - it is extremely misleading to include them in this one. --Danteferno 18:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with Danteferno. I'm gonna go ahead and remove them (keeping Grindcore of course) and see how it goes. Isilioth 04:19, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- I've edited the page to include deathcore, melodic deathcore, crossover thrash, and crust punk. These genres are neither extreme metal, metalcore, nor "hardcore" genres, but fusion genres, and should remain. 69.241.216.151 23:36, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with Danteferno. I'm gonna go ahead and remove them (keeping Grindcore of course) and see how it goes. Isilioth 04:19, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- The genres you keep erroneously putting in are associated with metalcore and hardcore, not extreme metal. You admitted this in the post above asking why they keep being removed (and you also answered your own question.) EM fusion genres are deathrash, blackened death, or blackened thrash, not Swede-CORE, MelodicDeath-CORE or AtTheGates-CORE. Such inclusion belongs in a separate article - it is extremely misleading to include them in this one. --Danteferno 18:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
- They're far from hardcore, which I'm guessing you've never bothered to look into. But, even if they were closer to hardcore punk, the genres were listed under "Fusion genres, subgenres, and variations," not the main "Extreme metal genres," and even you admit they have "death, black, or thrash traits." Scene does not make a genre. 68.47.1.63 14:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] metalcore 2 and mathcore
metalcore is a music genre made by a fusion of extreme metal and hardcore ( and both genres are labeled extreme music) so i think that metalcore can be labeled like extreme metal —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.220.117.179 (talk) 10:52, 11 April 2007 (UTC). i think that also mathcore is a form of extreme metal
- Mathcore and metalcore in general are far from being as extreme as black, death, doom, and thrash metal. Metalcore, as was said above, is part of the mainstream music, and thus wouldn't fit very well with those 4 extreme metal genres. Zouavman Le Zouave (Talk to me!) 18:23, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
- Thrash metal was (and still is) mainstream metal. 68.47.81.164 23:07, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- If you're talking about Metallica's Black Album and similar releases, then I have to say it is not, properly speaking, thrash metal. I have never seen a music video for a pure thrash metal band on MTV. Zouavman Le Zouave (Talk to me!) 06:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- In the '80s, thrash metal bands and videos could be seen on television, and I still hear early Metallica (KEA - AJfA) on the radio. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.47.81.164 (talk) 15:13, 16 April 2007 (UTC).
- That only constitutes an exception. Thrash metal maybe has some links to the mainstream public in the '80's (when metal, notably glam metal, was popular) and with Metallica. But the point is not concerning thrash metal, but on mathcore and metalcore. You can't possibly say that, as of 2007, mathcore and metalcore are more underground than thrash. And the point is not even on whether it's underground or not, it's whether it's extreme. Mathcore and metalcore are not extreme metal. In fact, metalcore is not always metal. Zouavman Le Zouave (Talk to me!) 16:15, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Anthrax had a spot on Married... with Children, Lil Jon sampled Slayer for Crunk Juice, Metallica's Master of Puppets hit 29 on the Billboard 200 in 1986, and videos by thrash metal groups have been played on MTV. That's more than "some links to the mainstream public." Anyway, metalcore is a fusion of metal and hardcore punk, so it will never be 'pure metal,' but neither is avant-garde metal, which was listed as an extreme metal subgenre. 68.47.81.164 22:10, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] death subgenres
in my opinion three different articles for deathcore, deathgrind and gore grind don't make sense because they are all union of death metal and grind core....i think that we can made only one article of them (i'm sorry i can't speak english very well---i'm an italian guy) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.220.117.179 (talk) 11:10, 11 April 2007 (UTC).
Not really. Deathcore is a fusion of death metal and metalcore, deathgrind is a fusion of death metal and grindcore, and goregrind is a more violent subgenre of grindcore. Mezmerizer 18:07, 13 June 2007 (UTC)Mezmerizer
Talking about death subgenres, Melodic Death Metal really shouldnt be listed as extreme. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.216.220.152 (talk) 02:28, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Doom metal? WTF?!
Can someone explain to me how doom metal is considered extreme metal? It is very slow and heavily blues influenced, and it has no similarity to thrash, death, or black metal.
It is heavy as hell?--Gustav Lindwall 20:07, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
there's traditional doom and there's extreme doom (funeral,drone,sludge and death doom)
I would say it is extreme metal. As one guy said, dont read the music, but listen to it. So go listen to Electric Wizard and tell me what you think.
- Doom Metal is an Extreme Metal genre. At its heaviest, it can be heavier and darker than Thrash Metal and Black Metal, respectively. If you're not convinced, see Black Sabbath's self titled song for a blast of pure evil and heaviness beyond most modern metal. -Motley a b c qu 06:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I couldn't find any source defining extreme metal (but hey, we already know this article is total original research) but here's what Metal Observer considers extreme metal. All of these bands are related to death, black and/or grindcore. Some have doom influences but always are clearly rooted in death and black (I've listened to quiet a few). This "extreme metal" search at Rockdetectors shows 711 band articles. 9 of 711 bands are labeled doom and in each article "extreme metal" is mentioned without referring to the band. Electric Wizard or Black Sabbath are in no way extreme metal. I'll remove it until reliable sources prove me wrong. Emmaneul (Talk) 01:54, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
...and Ill just put it right back in. Prepare to be Mezmerized! 01:40, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Doom Metal by itself isn't extreme, but funeral doom, sludge doom and drone doom are. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.134.141.10 (talk) 01:08, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Most doom metal is not extreme metal. Even death doom can be put with the melodic metal section because of the keyboards, violins, slow guitars, etc.... all they really have is the death metal vocal... Traditional Doom is no where near extreme metal. Drone Doom is hardly music, but just guitar effects. Sludge, well I cant say much about it for I have little knowledge. Anyways, its very arguable if doom metal is extreme or not, but in my point of view it is not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.199.194.194 (talk) 18:11, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Nu Metal
Why has this genre not been mentioned yet? I would consider it to be one of the crossover genres because it takes influence from all sorts of music, not even all metal. I'm going to put that , there, and I'll check back later to see if anybody bitches about it. Soholo 07:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)Soholo
nu metal is not a subgenre of thrash, death or black metal, and it's not a extreme music genre. nu metal it's a hybrid of genres which are not labeled "extreme" (crossover, groove, funky)
Nü metal is a term for all loose, modern metal and therefor no real genre at all. Both Slipknot and Linkin Park are labeled as nü metal, but Slipknot is much heavier than Linkin Park. But of course, none of these bands are real "extreme metal", as they got a lot of un-extreme influences (hip-hop and electronic music, for example). Nü metal shall not and will not be mentioned in this article.--85.224.83.77 22:34, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
- Nu metal is a term for music that is commonly thought "too heavy" to be a part of rock. Of course, the media doesn't seem to realize that hardcore punk exists, so they labeled it wrongly as metal. The main influences being grunge, rap/hiphop, electronic, and finally alternative metal. Really, I'd label it like grunge and put it under hard rock in most cases, or hardcore in extreme cases such as Slipknot. Modern metal consists of many genres: Metalcore is currently the mainstream whilst nu metal fades out, thrash metal is getting more mainstream attention, heavy metal is always in some spotlight, death metal has some mainstream popularity, etc. etc. The newest up and comers are deathcore and newer hardcore punk. But it's rather pointless to divulge into that. --Motley a b c qu 16:43, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Crust Punk?
Why is it here? After all, crust punk is just that, punk. Its NOT extreme metal, so unless someone objects, I'm taking it off. Mezmerizer 01:14, 15 June 2007 (UTC)Mezmerizer
- "Crust punk was created by combining anarcho-punk with extreme metal..." 68.47.81.164 13:38, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Grindcore
Grindcore is described as evolution of crust punk.Crust punk is in the list because it's a fusion between anarcho-punk and extreme metal.So grindcore have to be in the list of fusion genres. Also it has much in common with extreme metal. Xr 1 19:44, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Gothic metal
it's an evolution of doom-death metal- so it's related to the extreme metal.I think it should be in the 'related styles' list Xr 1 20:54, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I added it. I shall Mezmerize you! My edits shall Mezmerize you!! My articles shall Mezmerize you!!! 17:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Metalcore
There are a lot of wrong thoughts about Metalcore:
1. Metalcore is supposed to be to much Hardcore and things like that. But Crust Punk and Grindcore are 2/3 Punk/Hardcore and 1/3 Thrash (Death) Metal, Deathcore is ½ Death Metal ¼ Thrash Metal and ¼ Hardcore Punk (actually Deathcore is ½ Death Metal and ½ Metalcore but Metalcore is ½ Thrash (Extreme) Metal and ½ Hardcore). 2. Metalcore is not extreme enough. Well, not if Metalcore should meet the specifications to be called Black Metal. But many bands like Threat Signal, Johnny Truant and Parkway Drive are a lot more extreme than Industrial bands like Rammstein or Gothic bands like Within Temptation with clean female vocals when on the other hand Metalcore uses Grunts and is far more faster and especially more aggressive. Also very soft Avant-garde and Folk Metal bands are far more softer than Metalcore bands. 3. Last, Metalcore is supposed to be to mainstream. Well, Death Metal bands like In Flames, Thrash Metal bands like Slayer and even Black Metal bands like Cradle of Filth and Dimmu Borgir get more or the less as much attention on MTV, Slayer even wins Grammy awards. Metalcore is Mainstream, but only for an Extreme Metal band because it is a relatively new genre and it is not the most extreme variant of the Extreme Metal group. Also, Metalcore can only become really mainstream if the whole Extrem Metal group would become mainstream because they all share some things like grunt, blast beat and so on. These things are to extreme, aggressive, fast and not melodic enough for the mainstream. Many people who like Death Metal like In Flames or The Haunted also like Deathcore like Heaven Shall Burn. The thing is, because almost all genres in Extreme Metal uses Grunts and Screams, or at least frequently uses it, it makes it to extreme for many normal people and Metalheads to listen to it.
Finally, there are some people that try to deny Metalcore at just the same way as old granny’s refused to accept Rock n’ Roll, thus denying it without any clear reason. Give at least real arguments to deny it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.147.24.49 (talk) 16:42, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- This incoherent nonsense. I particularly like your "point 1", with its neat little packaging of genres. Which 1/2, which 1/4? At least they add up. Source your claims or please... go away. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 18:49, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
